Thread: 7.3 spoilers!

  1. #1501
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    or maybe he just wanted his resurrection to be faster.
    Fusing your soul into a construct that is supposed to replace your body doesn't speed up your ressurection, you just literally replace your body.

    For a *Mortal* being that seems a fair deal, death vs. at least some sort of life, for a creature that would just reappear sooner or later, that's a different story.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Still trying to make sense of that bizarre WoD premise?
    It becomes even weirder when you realize that the events of WoD happen 30 years before the events in TBC. So, MU Socrethar was not dead by then.
    In the great scheme of things, WoD still happens after BC.

    The Archimonde we fought at the Black Gate was the Archimonde that died at Hyjal, for Archimonde itself, he died first at Hyjal, then at the Black Gate.

    *IF* Archimonde's death during WoD is truly permanent and WoD would have happened "before" Warcraft 3 / BC, then you obviously had a loophole where Archimonde would not exist and thereby Warcraft 3: RoC would not make a lot of things.

  2. #1502
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daltin View Post
    Except it's not. Read War Crimes I guess.

    Edit: Where did this sudden "It's not time travel" thought process come into play? The player base has bitched and moaned about time travel for ~4 years now, and now suddenly, it 'isn't time travel'.

    Garrosh traveled "Sideways and backwards through time" with the assistance of a bronze dragon.
    its timetravel in the sense that its a time that was 30 years ago. It however is not the MU reality. IF you are trying to argue that, no point because its just plain wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  3. #1503
    It's an Alternate Universe, as to where Garrosh was never born.

    And, when WoD came along, we also killed AU Gruul.

    Yet, all of that doesn't really affect MU Gruul AT ALL!

    The only things that are effective to our timeline in WoD, resembles of Demons, and Demons only...

  4. #1504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daltin View Post
    Except it's not. Read War Crimes I guess.

    Edit: Where did this sudden "It's not time travel" thought process come into play? The player base has bitched and moaned about time travel for ~4 years now, and now suddenly, it 'isn't time travel'.

    Garrosh traveled "Sideways and backwards through time" with the assistance of a bronze dragon.
    It's not in the sense of we're always time traveling throughout the expansion.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  5. #1505
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Yes it does, it's not hard to understand.
    How can we travel to 30 year ago in an alternate timeline, and the demons there be the same demons that were already influencing that place in that time be the same ones that were interacting with our reality?
    If demons exist outside time, how can they interact with time? Can they appear non-linearly? (i.e.: he experiences things in different order from us?)
    If demons exist outside time and I kill Kil'jaeden now, what prevents Kil'jaeden from appearing again, since he exists outside time and his "death" could have happened "after" any future appearances of him?
    If demons exist outside time and there can be only one demon per all realities, if I kill Kil'jaeden now, will all Kil'jaedens in the past also disappear, rewriting history?
    If we killed Kil'jaeden before WoD, would there be a Kil'jaeden in Draenor corrupting Gul'dan? (Apparently, yes, because there's Socrethar, killed 30 years later in our reality, still kicking 30 years ago in that reality)
    Does a single Kil'jaeden wastes his time corrupting infinite Gul'dan in infinite timelines?
    We killed Kil'jaeden. Does that means he just disappeared from all realities? Including WoD, which is happening "now", but 30 years ago?

    Try as I may, there'll always be a flaw in whatever explanation you try to make WoD work. There have been countless threads about this already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    In the great scheme of things, WoD still happens after BC.

    The Archimonde we fought at the Black Gate was the Archimonde that died at Hyjal, for Archimonde itself, he died first at Hyjal, then at the Black Gate.

    *IF* Archimonde's death during WoD is truly permanent and WoD would have happened "before" Warcraft 3 / BC, then you obviously had a loophole where Archimonde would not exist and thereby Warcraft 3: RoC would not make a lot of things.
    Tell that to Socrethar, then. He died in TBC, but was alive in WoD. How could that happen if there's only one demon of a person?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    its timetravel in the sense that its a time that was 30 years ago. It however is not the MU reality. IF you are trying to argue that, no point because its just plain wrong.
    it's not time travel for us, mortals, because we are just jumping into the past of another universe, so there's no causality for changing things there.
    However, it IS be time-travel for demons, since they "transcend realities". But then, Blizzard said they also transcend time. But then, there couldn't be a Socrethar in WoD because Socrethar dies in TBC.

    Also, saying demons exist outside of time creates a huge hole because killing a demon means shit, since time is non-linear for them. A "past" version of a demon could still exist in our future...

  6. #1506
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    How can we travel to 30 year ago in an alternate timeline, and the demons there be the same demons that were already influencing that place in that time be the same ones that were interacting with our reality?
    If demons exist outside time, how can they interact with time? Can they appear non-linearly? (i.e.: he experiences things in different order from us?)
    If demons exist outside time and I kill Kil'jaeden now, what prevents Kil'jaeden from appearing again, since he exists outside time and his "death" could have happened "after" any future appearances of him?
    If demons exist outside time and there can be only one demon per all realities, if I kill Kil'jaeden now, will all Kil'jaedens in the past also disappear, rewriting history?
    If we killed Kil'jaeden before WoD, would there be a Kil'jaeden in Draenor corrupting Gul'dan? (Apparently, yes, because there's Socrethar, killed 30 years later in our reality, still kicking 30 years ago in that reality)
    Does a single Kil'jaeden wastes his time corrupting infinite Gul'dan in infinite timelines?
    We killed Kil'jaeden. Does that means he just disappeared from all realities? Including WoD, which is happening "now", but 30 years ago?

    Try as I may, there'll always be a flaw in whatever explanation you try to make WoD work. There have been countless threads about this already.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Tell that to Socrethar, then. He died in TBC, but was alive in WoD. How could that happen if there's only one demon of a person?

    - - - Updated - - -



    it's not time travel for us, mortals, because we are just jumping into the past of another universe, so there's no causality for changing things there.
    However, it IS be time-travel for demons, since they "transcend realities". But then, Blizzard said they also transcend time. But then, there couldn't be a Socrethar in WoD because Socrethar dies in TBC.
    Mate, this is Blizzard.

    Logic is the LAST thing they want to hear.

    As long as we get stronger, then that's all that matters to them.

  7. #1507
    Quote Originally Posted by jasontheking1234 View Post
    Mate, this is Blizzard.

    Logic is the LAST thing they want to hear.

    As long as we get stronger, then that's all that matters to them.
    But that's my point! People are trying to make logical affirmations out of this clusterfuck, and my point is: don't bother to explain. No explanation can be satisfatory for this. All I'm doing is pointing the paradoxes in others' explanations.

  8. #1508
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    But that's my point! People are trying to make logical affirmations out of this clusterfuck, and my point is: don't bother to explain. No explanation can be satisfatory for this. All I'm doing is pointing the paradoxes in others' explanations.
    Satisfactory to you even though people have given you reasons.
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  9. #1509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Gremlin View Post
    Same. She's truly the only one left that's still mysterious, even N'zoth and Azshara have more info out there compared to her.
    Elune is hands down the most interesting character in Warcraft history if you ask me. Because we don't really know anything about her, we got a brief look at her when Ysera died.
    Well we know that she's extremely old if what Xera tells us is completely true. Xera is probably the only first hand source of information we have of the goddess.

  10. #1510
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Satisfactory to you even though people have given you reasons.
    You can't explain a paradox, no matter how hard you try.
    People can make theories to show how that could work, but WoD was such an intricate mess that there's always something poorly thought out in that expansion that can ruin any theory. WoD is the most brilliant mindfuck possible because it just can't make sense. And it can't make sense because Blizzard didn't plan the explanations beforehand. They didn't map all the consequences before starting the story. They were just making up the rules as the story progressed.

    The best explanation for WoD is: "it was just a bad dream".
    Last edited by DeicideUH; 2017-07-04 at 04:53 PM.

  11. #1511
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephre View Post
    I mean we're basically murder hobos with magic sticks.
    Awww man this made my day!

    Also Sargeras being reborn inside Argus or "possessing" the world soul of Argus, and the pillars of creation somehow being linked to the "rebirth" of the titans seems very plausible, and exciting.

  12. #1512
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    You can't explain a paradox, no matter how hard you try.
    People can make theories to show how that could work, but WoD was such an intricate mess that there's always something poorly thought out in that expansion that can ruin any theory. WoD is the most brilliant mindfuck possible, because it just can't make sense.

    The best explanation for WoD is: "it was just a bad dream".
    it's not a paradox. let me fully explain how we're thinking this demon thing works.

    ok, original person becomes a demon, that is the base demon.

    then same person in alternate universe becomes a demon. the theory is that instead of actually becoming a demon, they are essentially erased and become a part of the original demon, adding to its power or something similar.

    socrethar of our universe died in the nether, so he is dead. that base demon was eradicated. exists no more.

    othar of AU ascends to demonhood, becoming the new base demon socrethar. he likely doesn't have any knowledge of the original demon, because its soul was destroyed.

    there's no paradox here.

  13. #1513
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Tell that to Socrethar, then. He died in TBC, but was alive in WoD. How could that happen if there's only one demon of a person?
    Because Blizzard doesn't explain how Eredar work in this whole regard, you know there is no definite answer to this question, merely speculations.

    What we know however is that the Archimonde first died on Azeroth during the Third war, then back during WoD to ensure the invasion of AU Draenor was working out.

  14. #1514
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    it's not a paradox. let me fully explain how we're thinking this demon thing works.

    ok, original person becomes a demon, that is the base demon.

    then same person in alternate universe becomes a demon. the theory is that instead of actually becoming a demon, they are essentially erased and become a part of the original demon, adding to its power or something similar.

    socrethar of our universe died in the nether, so he is dead. that base demon was eradicated. exists no more.

    othar of AU ascends to demonhood, becoming the new base demon socrethar. he likely doesn't have any knowledge of the original demon, because its soul was destroyed.

    there's no paradox here.
    There's a paradox because the WoD universe "is happening" 30 years ago. It's not time traveling for us mortals because it's a different universe, but it IS time traveling for a demon because there's a single demon for all universes. So, WoD!Socrethar already existed 30 years ago, he was not created now.

    (And we didn't even see Socrethar becoming a demon. We just unmasked him. He was a demon for who knows how long, and had time to corrupt the entire Sargerei faction).

    Also, because WoD "is happening" 30 years ago, how can Kil'jaeden of 30 years ago be the same Kil'jaeden from now?

    You could say that Kairoz "pulled" Draenor into our present, so at some point 30 year ago Kil'jaeden lost contact with the WoD reality and suddenly noticed it reappering now. But that's not the explanation that we had been given, Kairoz says that the Vision of Time was working as a beacon between the two timelines so they could be linked. As such, there was no "sudden pull" from one reality to another, but a link between different realities in different timestamps.

    (At the end of WoD I was hoping for an explanation that indeed the AU!Draenor was pulled into our reality, disappearing from its original universe and being brought into ours. It would make everything simpler, but that never happened)
    Last edited by DeicideUH; 2017-07-04 at 05:05 PM.

  15. #1515
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    You can't explain a paradox, no matter how hard you try.
    Well, I don't want to delve to deep into this topic here as it doesn't relate to 7.3 that much (and we've gotten multiple threads about it already), but seeing that the discussion have been revolving around it for the last few pages and there isn't anything new for now, I will go into it briefly.

    Firstly, people have given possible explanations - different ones even - so yes, we can certainly explain everything in WoD. I'm using "possible" since Blizzard themselves have never given us any official ones so those explanations remain speculations for now, but saying that it can't make any sense isn't entirely correct. Have you considered that maybe it's not even a paradox to begin with, and you were just misunderstanding / missing things?

    For example, for the issues you brought up:

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    How can we travel to 30 year ago in an alternate timeline, and the demons there be the same demons that were already influencing that place in that time be the same ones that were interacting with our reality?
    The Legion made use of the connection between AU Draenor and our universe, and went back there just like we did. There are be exceptions such as the ones that turned into demon there (i.e: Socrethar), but they are exceptions. What's wrong about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    If demons exist outside time, how can they interact with time? Can they appear non-linearly? (i.e.: he experiences things in different order from us?)
    If demons exist outside time and I kill Kil'jaeden now, what prevents Kil'jaeden from appearing again, since he exists outside time and his "death" could have happened "after" any future appearances of him?
    If demons exist outside time and there can be only one demon per all realities, if I kill Kil'jaeden now, will all Kil'jaedens in the past also disappear, rewriting history?
    We killed Kil'jaeden. Does that means he just disappeared from all realities? Including WoD, which is happening "now", but 30 years ago?
    They don't exist outside of time. That's where your understanding of the issue is flawed. The Nether exist outside of realities - in WoW, it means just physical universe. It (the Twisting Nether) has its own time flow. The demons who resides inside Nether aren't outside of time, and they interact with time just like we do. And no, since they interact with time just like we do, killing KJ now wouldn't affect his past selves the slightest bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    If we killed Kil'jaeden before WoD, would there be a Kil'jaeden in Draenor corrupting Gul'dan? (Apparently, yes, because there's Socrethar, killed 30 years later in our reality, still kicking 30 years ago in that reality)
    Yes, it'd just be the past Kil'Jaeden. He wouldn't know the event of "future" (or our present), however.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Does a single Kil'jaeden wastes his time corrupting infinite Gul'dan in infinite timelines?
    We don't know. It wasn't made clear, so it would depends on how WoW multiverse work and different speculations would give you different answer.
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  16. #1516
    The only way it would make sense for their spirits to be on Argus is if the Keepers themselves come on the planet during the questline and end up getting whacked.
    And considering Odyn doesn't have a spirit in him... if his brothers do get destroyed, that might just have him go mental... which would draw N'zoth to influence him.

    As Iy'lggonoth said: "The Lord of Ravens will turn the key." And it's what Odin is technically known as in mythology.

  17. #1517
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    The Legion made use of the connection between AU Draenor and our universe, and went back there just like we did. There are be exceptions such as the ones that turned into demon there (i.e: Socrethar), but they are exceptions. What's wrong about it?
    But then there would two Legions: Past!Legion and Present!Legion. Since they share universes, WoD would be true timetraveling for them.

    They don't exist outside of time. That's where your understanding of the issue is flawed. The Nether exist outside of realities - in WoW, it means just physical universe. It (the Twisting Nether) has its own time flow. The demons who resides inside Nether aren't outside of time, and they interact with time just like we do. And no, since they interact with time just like we do, killing KJ now wouldn't affect his past selves the slightest bit.
    Again, by that explanation, there would be two Legions, just in different timestamps. But that was not how WoD worked: the demons there were the same demons we had here.

    Yes, it'd just be the past Kil'Jaeden. He wouldn't know the event of "future" (or our present), however.
    But then, there would be more than one Kil'jaeden, and he would be able to interact with our reality, past his supposed death, and the mindfuckery begins anew.

    We don't know. It wasn't made clear, so it would depends on how WoW multiverse work and different speculations would give you different answer.

  18. #1518
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    But then there would two Legions: Past!Legion and Present!Legion. Since they share universes, WoD would be true timetraveling for them.
    Yes, there would be two Legions if you are counting their past version as a new one. Both of them are the same entity, though, just on different time. I don't see anything wrong about it - the "not time travel" statement was applied to us, not them - and was more in the line that we didn't time travel back in our past, but moved to an alternate universe past instead. That is under assumption that Blizzard ever said it wasn't time travel at first place, as I can't remember them saying so - Afrasiabi even implied it's how time travel should work (in his opinion, probably) in his interview:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

    Q: were there any concerns about how players would respond to the idea of alternate universe/time travel?
    A: There are always concerns. But the confidence lies in the fact that we know that after the theorycrafting is over and the people have kind of come up with their own stories and ideas that once they got into the world that it would not be wrong to them. And I would challenge people that play Warlords to prove me wrong.
    <...>
    A: I mean it's something we bounced around the previous Caverns of Time stuff sort of -- like we kind of skirted it -- and we embraced it with this one. Like this is what we're talking about here, right. And if you're a true time travel nerd, you understand that's the only way time travel works anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Again, by that explanation, there would be two Legions, just in different timestamps. But that was not how WoD worked: the demons there were the same demons we had here.
    Be noted that past version of a being (for example, past Kil'Jaeden) and current version of them (i.e: current Kil'Jaeden) are still counted as the same entity, just on different time. It is different from an alternate Kil'Jaeden - which doesn't exist. Additionally, as stated, the demons we interacted with was the current Legion from our perspective (well, by the time WoD happened), not the past Legion. They made use of Kairoz's connection and interacted / moved into that past AU Draenor. So yes, they were the same demons here.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    But then, there would be more than one Kil'jaeden, and he would be able to interact with our reality, past his supposed death, and the mindfuckery begins anew.
    That's not what Blizzard meant by telling us the demons are singular entities or transcend realities. As I elaborated twice in this post, Blizzard meant that there aren't alternate versions of demons. In other words, no AU1 KJ, AU2 KJ, AU3 KJ, etc, but only one Kil'Jaeden instead. His past selves are still himself, and there would still be one Kil'Jaeden.

    And yes, if there is a connection between the past and the present, a past Kil'Jaeden can technically interact with our reality past his death. I don't see anything confusing or wrong about it.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  19. #1519
    WoD still fucking shit up almost a year later. WoD, the ruinner. May no lore stand in its path and no discussion about lore ever not devolve into a discussion between Time Travel and Multi-Verses.

    Fucking WoD.

    7.3 seems to be shaping up into an interesting bit of lore pieces and action. Some fun flashbacks I'm sure we'll see either courtesy of Velen or X'eras.

  20. #1520
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Yes, there would be two Legions if you are counting their past version as a new one. Both of them are the same entity, though, just on different time. I don't see anything wrong about it - the "not time travel" statement was applied to us, not them - and was more in the line that we didn't time travel back in our past, but moved to an alternate universe past instead. That is under assumption that Blizzard ever said it wasn't time travel at first place, as I can't remember them saying so - Afrasiabi even implied it's how time travel should work (in his opinion, probably) in his interview:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

    Q: were there any concerns about how players would respond to the idea of alternate universe/time travel?
    A: There are always concerns. But the confidence lies in the fact that we know that after the theorycrafting is over and the people have kind of come up with their own stories and ideas that once they got into the world that it would not be wrong to them. And I would challenge people that play Warlords to prove me wrong.
    <...>
    A: I mean it's something we bounced around the previous Caverns of Time stuff sort of -- like we kind of skirted it -- and we embraced it with this one. Like this is what we're talking about here, right. And if you're a true time travel nerd, you understand that's the only way time travel works anyway.
    Translating that answer: "we don't know how it works, but we'll pretend it works"

    Be noted that past version of a being (for example, past Kil'Jaeden) and current version of them (i.e: current Kil'Jaeden) are still counted as the same entity, just on different time. It is different from an alternate Kil'Jaeden - which doesn't exist. Additionally, as stated, the demons we interacted with was the current Legion from our perspective (well, by the time WoD happened), not the past Legion. They made use of Kairoz's connection and interacted / moved into that past AU Draenor. So yes, they were the same demons here.
    Then, where are the past!demons? Why not a single one of them appeared?
    Mannoroth: was it the past!Mannoroth or the present!Mannoroth?
    Why did Gul'dan resurrect past!Mannoroth if he could just summon the present!Mannoroth?

    The entire WoD storyline treats the demons there as the same ones as the present ones, there's not a single case that shows different timestamps of the same demon.
    And, if demons transcend reality and it's timetraveling for them, that should change our past, since now the demons of our past (which are the same ones we are interating with in the present) would learn about their future.

    That's not what Blizzard meant by telling us the demons are singular entities or transcend realities. As I elaborated twice in this post, Blizzard meant that there aren't alternate versions of demons. In other words, no AU1 KJ, AU2 KJ, AU3 KJ, etc, but only one Kil'Jaeden instead. His past selves are still himself, and there would still be one Kil'Jaeden.

    And yes, if there is a connection between the past and the present, a past Kil'Jaeden can technically interact with our reality past his death. I don't see anything confusing or wrong about it.
    You don't see anything confusing or wrong about it because you are only looking at the surface and not delving into the consequences of having a time portal for demons that affects THEIR causality, and thus ours.

    Face it: Blizzard made WoD without planning anything. They made up rules as they needed, without any consistency. Not even Blizzard can give a straight answer, like you yourself proved with that quote. If there was a possible straight answer, Blizzard would have clarified it. Instead, they now act as if WoD never happened.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    WoD still fucking shit up almost a year later. WoD, the ruinner. May no lore stand in its path and no discussion about lore ever not devolve into a discussion between Time Travel and Multi-Verses.

    Fucking WoD.
    This. So much this.

    7.3 seems to be shaping up into an interesting bit of lore pieces and action. Some fun flashbacks I'm sure we'll see either courtesy of Velen or X'eras.
    Hoping for a new build with more juicy tidbits soon.

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