When and why exactly did Arthas turn evil?

[Deleted]

Most people would say that Arthas' turning point was the Culling of Stratholme. I disagree. I think that it was a difficult decision, possibly made easier by a desire for vengeance, but rational nonetheless. I realise that others may disagree with me about Stratholme, but bear with me and argue in the alternative. If not the Culling, then when exactly did Arthas cross the line? I think taking up Frostmourne is a clear turning point but from that point he could be considered under the influence of the Lich King and so I do not think it is fair to completely attribute his actions to him.

My next best guess is when he burnt his ships and back-stabbed the mercenaries and soldiers in Northrend. If this is the point in time, then why exactly? I don't think that a desire for vengeance is well supported and doesn't fit well with his character. I find it hard to believe a prince who is also a paladin would be overcome by vengeance so easily. I would believe it if he was influence by, say, an Old God or Sha.

So, when exactly do you think Arthas cross the line (if not Stratholme or taking Frostmourne) and do you think he was under some extra influence at that point?

When he took up Frostmourne, because then he was mind-controlled by the Lich King. So it wasn't even Arthas who was evil. Arthas always only wanted to save his people, until Frostmourne affected his mind to the point where he didn't care anymore. So Arthas never did anything wrong.

[Wildmoon]

The killing part was borderline but it was a necessary evil if his plan for deathground was to be achieved. Otherwise his troops would mutinied and left and the Dreadlord wouldve escaped to fulfill his plan.

Going that far for that pointless cause was evil in the first place. It was a revenge. There was absolutely no reason to pursue Mal'Ganis in the first place. None of it was neccessary taking personal vendetta out of the window.

[Deleted]

He also blamed the burning of the boats on the mercenaries who just fought with him causing his men to murder them. If that is not evil then I don't know what is.

Those mercenaries were hitmen. They would've killed Arthas and his men had someone else paid them to do it. They were immoral criminals. They were worth less than Arthas' mission. It wasn't evil to kill them, they were scum.

[Wildmoon]

Those mercenaries were hitmen. They would've killed Arthas and his men had someone else paid them to do it. They were immoral criminals. They were worth less than Arthas' mission. It wasn't evil to kill them, they were scum.

What? Who was he to judge them? He did not even know their histories. He had absolutely no right to sacrifice their lives for such a fucked up cause. His mission was absolutely worthless. Killing Mal'Ganis did not help Lordaeron and its people in anyway.

[Stormdash]

The path Arthas took to get to Frostmourne was not a righteous one, he didn't "turn" evil by getting it. He lied to and stranded his soldiers in Northrend to keep them from finding out he had lied to them about the purpose and legitimacy of his mission. He commanded the mercenaries he used in those crimes to be killed by his soldiers, betraying them as well.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Arthas is one of my favorite characters really and truly he is the classic hero arch type, steep in tradition and nobility, and an age old lesson that although sometimes things can appear to be one way, they turn out to be another.

Bottom line is Arthas was doomed from day one, yes day one, and if you listen to the trailer for WoTLK when his father speaks about the whispers saying the name Arthas, that was pretty much your clue right there, and him telling about how he was raised with wisdom and care into a weapon.

But keep in mind although this is to be he heir he is talking about his SON, he speaks kind of as cold as the the winds of northern. You can debate all day about his choices though, but the truth is he was a monster well before Stratholm, Frostmourn and the Crown of the Damned.


I think much like other arch types though such as Vader in Star Wars or in real life some of the monsters that happened, the question then also leads to, is there ever a point to where the course of Arthas in this example could have been changed.

The answer is NO he couldn't have been saved ever, because despite all the love, and guidance or mistakes even his father made, it was Arthas choice that lead to his ruin, even the whispers to his destiny.

Consequently the other alternative is if you killed Arthas before the events of Stratholm could what happened have been prevented, and if you are a fan of "The Time Machine" I believe this answer too is NO!

Unlike "The Time Machine" without the death of the mans wife in the story, the time machine could never have been built in the first place. And like Back to the Future and many other theories about the future Fantasy or otherwise.

Time can not be changed, it wont allow it, it has a self correcting mechanism, where call it a splice or whatever, if it wasn't Arthas that would be "The Lich King" it would have been something else.



Remember at the end his father made it clear "There must always be a Lich King" so that power was always there, always calling, someone would have heard it.


I also think that is why Bolvar tried to warn Fordring that people couldn't know, because I think even he knew, it wasn't a matter of if but when, and he wanted to delay that reality of even his rise and turn so that time could pass and give a a new group of heroes the chance to stop him once again.

[Zuben]

The beginning wasn't Stratholme itself, but its aftermath. Arthas could've stayed in Lordaeron, but he chose to go after Mal'ganis and to destroy him at any cost. A seemingly just quest to destroy the enemy that had brought death and suffering to his realm, Arthas's actual motivation was personal and as he went further in Northrend the further he changed. The final moral event horizon was when he grabbed Frostmourne and let Lich King into his mind. At that point whatever love he had held for his homeland and its people was overwhelmed by the curse. Had he managed to defeat Mal'ganis without Frostmourne I think he could have returned to Lordaeron. Though surely damaged by his experiences, he may not have made a good ruler. Could be after he had naturally succeeded Terenas Lordaeron could have turned into something similar to Scarlet Crusade. The dreadlords would've still been there in any case, Frostmourne or not.

[Sigxy]

What makes Arthas a good character is that he did everything he wanted to WITHOUT any "sha corruption" or "the old gods did it" nonsense that plagues other characters.

You can say Ner'zhul influenced him, sure... but in the end, Arthas got what he wanted out of that arrangement. Arthas defeated Ner'zhul and took over the mantle of Lich King.

Kel'thuzad, who had destroyed his homeland, became Arthas' servant.

Uther, who kicked him out of the Knights of the Silver Hand, was bested by Arthas.

Mal'Ganis, who had kill his countrymen and taunted him, was destroyed.

And he wasn't just going to have lordaeron as a kingdom; he was going to have ALL of Azeroth as his kingdom.


Sounds like Arthas got everything he wanted to me.

Well until he died

And hey, not to mention - he wasn't a born "Special snowflake" and neither was he born as a powerful super being!


But yeah, that being said, I still think it was some influence that made him "evil" - when he went "evil" if you ask me was when he picked up Frostmourne, possibly after he defeat Mal'ganis. But even then it was the 'Lich King' part that made him "evil" since after you defeat him in ICC, he did seem to snap out of it a little as Frostmourne was destroyed and the helmet was removed.

[huth]

Pretty much the entire WC3 campaign. At least the parts that actually featured him.

There's no single event or turning point, he slowly slides ever further into evil.

[Deleted]

The moment he met Mal'Ganis. It's like KJ and Velen - "I'll hunt you down no matter what!"

[Larynx]

Arthas never changed. From the beginning he was vindictive towards orcs and possessive of Jaina and anything else he considered "his". Stratholme and Northrend just tore down that facade. He was never really a Paladin and didn't really care about stopping the plague or saving his people. He just took personal insult to Mal'ganis harming what was his by right, and went to enormous lengths to punish Mal'ganis for it. Obviously he became proper evil and corrupted after taking up Frostmourne, but he willingly took that upon himself, because he didn't care. Stratholme was definitely his point of no return, but it just showed his true colors more than anything.

[Sigxy]

Arthas never changed. From the beginning he was vindictive towards orcs

Probably because the orcs we're talking about in this case are the ones that kept raiding the humans and were still siding with the Burning Legion. Can't blame him for hating those.

[Larynx]

Probably because the orcs we're talking about in this case are the ones that kept raiding the humans and were still siding with the Burning Legion. Can't blame him for hating those.

Uther doesn't feel that way, and criticizes Arthas for that viewpoint. I'm going to agree with Uther the Mfing Lightbringer on proper Paladin conduct.

[Deleted]

Well he is not 100% evil.

He is like the greatest hero the undead creatures have seen on our planet.
But one of the biggest threats the living creatures have seen.

He wanted to unite the world under 1 banner that of the scourge to destroy the Legion and bring peace in the world.
Then again to get to this point he need to kill everything and ress afterward.

----

But if you want a point where he stopped being a champion of the light (paladin) and became a champion of the death it should have been once he killed his father and killed every living thing in his kingdom, Stratholm he did in the name of the light to stop the plaque i dont consider this evil but just a choice to serve his kingdom best.

[Aucald]

I think that because all the grains were already infected, and the people were already turning into undead.
He feared that Mal'Ganis would control everyone and gather more numbers.

The citizens of Stratholme were already infected and destined to become undead - the race was Arthas killing and burning them so they wouldn't turn into undead beings, whereas Mal'ganis was collecting them and teleporting them somewhere so that they be held in his reserve of undead.

[Sigxy]

Uther doesn't feel that way, and criticizes Arthas for that viewpoint. I'm going to agree with Uther the Mfing Lightbringer on proper Paladin conduct.

Funny enough when he says that:

Uther: "Remember, Arthas, we are paladins. Vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do."

Clearly Uther had no idea what a Retribution Paladin was with all those 'Vengeance' spells!

[Draedarr]

The citizens of Stratholme were already infected and destined to become undead - the race was Arthas killing and burning them so they wouldn't turn into undead beings, whereas Mal'ganis was collecting them and teleporting them somewhere so that they be held in his reserve of undead.

Yep, he had no other options, the city was already going to fall.
Going to play the campaign again, but glad that i have not forget it at all .

[killwithpwr]

After reading his book, i believe that the first nudge towards the dark side and the begining of his downfall was when he lost Invincible.

It wasnt a major push, but it made him realise mortality and made him a fearfull person that will stop at nothing to what he thinks will save his loved ones...

Not knowing what he will become

[rcshaggy]

I think it was when he was going after Mal'ganis and killing innocents...
He did it to make sure the human citizens didn't turn into undeath, so he gave them the peace of death. People thought he was evil during this, but he was doing his work.
Also his Campaign in Northrend changed him too. He was turning into the Death Knight with getting Frostmourne, and betraying his men.

Still too when his soul was taken and he became the first of the Lich King's Death Knights.
He become the well known Death Knight we see today and such getting the Helm too, and taking over the Scourge.

[Littleraven]

It isn't Stratholme BUT it was shortly after. What he did there was actually with good intentions. Rather put the people down before they became mindless zombies. That isn't an inherently evil act. Everything that came after it though can be argued that it was. Stratholme was the turning point for sure and anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. His first actual evil act though? once he took up Frostmmoure everything he did after that was evil. No more justification for anything he did. It became less about his people and more about what the Lich King willed him to do and probably to a greater extent his own selfish desires. He attacked Muradin, betrayed the Mercenaries they hired to help them and destroyed his entire fleet so they couldn't go home. It was so not about Mal'ganis at that point.