Sylvanas and the Lich King

[Magical Mudcrab]

HoD - for what use? As long as Nerzhul is bound to that, its excatly that what she hates most. Because thats the reason she is what she is.

The Helm of Dominion does not contain Ner'zhul. It grants the wielder the power of the Lich King (ie: expanded consciousness and ability to control near endless undead) and has a corrupting influence, but Arthas destroyed Ner'zhul's soul.

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Remember that most people, forsaken included, do not even know the new Lich King exist. To the world, the Lich King is dead. So, Sylvanas (who does know about the Lich King) making a deal in secret could take a very long time before anyone finds out. No one is saying the forsaken would need to march alongside the Scourge slaying the living; they could be sent in missions "for the benefit of the Dark Lady" or "to secure our future". They could be kept in the dark, meanwhile Sylvanas gains power over death and can raise dead on her own, while still being assured that the Lich King can raise her again should she fall.

She would still have nothing to offer him other than service, and keeping the Forsaken in the dark would guarantee her dethroning once the Forsaken found out. If it's not malicious, why would she hide it?

But that's the point. Without conflict, a story is worthless. The Forsaken need to look less like a hive mind, to have factions, conflicting opinions, more leaders.

Internal conflict is fine, but conflict for the sake of conflict will come off as contrived and people will disassociate.

[Arrashi]

you are literally waving your arms in the air and screaming "doesn't count"

Isn't it delightful tho ? We are only 2 pages in and its already fully blooming sylvanas thread.

[Deleted]

Arthas destroyed Ner'zhul's soul.

Can you give me a source for that pls?

She was insignificant to Arthas, how is she going to take the helm from Bolvar who is more powerful than Arthas ever was?

How is Bolvar more powerfull than Arthas?

[Magical Mudcrab]

Can you give me a source for that pls?

All I can say is read Arthas: Rise of the Lich King.

How is Bolvar more powerfull than Arthas?

Prophet's Lesson describes a vision in which a new Lich King rises (note: Velen does not know about Bolvar) more terrible than Arthas nor Ner'zhul.

[DeicideUH]

She can't make that deal. The Forsaken are not substantial enough to be a threat to the Scourge, and both the members of the Argent Crusade that assailed Icecrown Citadel and the defenders of Azeroth know about the necessity of a Lich King. She simply has nothing to offer if that's her bargaining posture.

She can offer an alliance. The former Lich King was always in search of willing allies. That's what a "deal with the devil" is about: you don't need to be as powerful as him, only powerful enough to be useful. And Sylvanas is quite powerful.

He's not bolstering his forces, he's attempting to make the Deathknights of Acherus doubt themselves and whether their wills are actually their own. It's never been shown that he's been bolstering his forces. Moreover, the Scourge are being contained and have not - as of yet - been shown to have grown.

Raising a new flight of Frost Wyrms does not count? Creating new horsemen doesn't count? The Lich King is getting powerful allies. it doesn't matter if he isn't controlling them directly; a willing ally is still an ally. And that's what would matter for the Lich King in a deal with Sylvanas: getting a willing ally that needs his power over death. He doesn't need to control her directly, only to trheaten interrupt his support should she act against him.

We don't know the terms with her deal with Helya and what was offered.

It doesn't matter. She had something to offer Helya, but you just dismiss that she has nothing to offer the Lich King?

She was insignificant to Arthas, how is she going to take the helm from Bolvar who is more powerful than Arthas ever was?

Why is Bolvar more powerful? Nothing in the story shows that. Bolvar does not have the vast Scourge forces Arthas had, he does not have Frostmourne. What advantage Bolvar have over Arthas?

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Prophet's Lesson describes a vision in which a new Lich King rises (note: Velen does not know about Bolvar) more terrible than Arthas nor Ner'zhul.

That's in the (possible) future, not the current situation.

(It's weird that you refute that the Lich King is bolstering his forces, but then talks about a future in which the Lich King is very powerful as if it were a fact).

[Deleted]

Prophet's Lesson describes a vision in which a new Lich King rises (note: Velen does not know about Bolvar) more terrible than Arthas nor Ner'zhul.

More terrible doesn't mean more powerfull. Garrosh/Thrall were more terrible than Grommash, but never that powerfull.

Bolvar does not have the vast Scourge forces Arthas had, he does not have Frostmourne. What advantage Bolvar have over Arthas?

And he doesn't have the Plate of the Damned.

It doesn't matter. She had something to offer Helya, but you just dismiss that she has nothing to offer the Lich King?

It does matter, you dont know if that, what Sylvanas payed to Helya, would be of use for Bolvar. Beside that, if she already GAVE it to Helya, she does not have it anymore

[Magical Mudcrab]

She can offer an alliance. The former Lich King was always in search of willing allies. That's what a "deal with the devil" is about: you don't need to be as powerful as him, only powerful enough to be useful. And Sylvanas is quite powerful.

The former Lich Kings did not seek out allies, they sought out subservient slaves. The closest thing to an ally that the Lich King had was Kel'thuzad, who chose to willingly serve Ner'zhul rather than become a servant with no will of their own, and he was still totally and completely loyal to the Lich King.

It should also be pointed out that Sylvanas, like all faction leaders, is powerful, but that's relative.

Raising a new flight of Frost Wyrms does not count? Creating new horsemen doesn't count? The Lich King is getting powerful allies. it doesn't matter if he isn't controlling them directly; a willing ally is still an ally. And that's what would matter for the Lich King in a deal with Sylvanas: getting a willing ally that needs his power over death. He doesn't need to control her directly, only to trheaten interrupt his support should she act against him.

The frost wryms belong to the Deathknights of Acherus.
The four horsemen are loyal to the Deathlord.
The Deathlord and their Deathknights are not confirmed to be under Bolvar's control. Their alliance is predicated on mutual survival, as the Legion will destroy the Frozen Throne and the Lich King should they come to Azeroth. Bolvar aided the Deathknights under the pretense that they would use the resources they were granted to fight the Legion. Sylvanas does not have this opportunity and has nothing to bargain. The Lich King isn't going to make a one-sided deal where Sylvanas gets what she wants and he get's nothing but her word that she may sometimes help him if she's in the mood, and he would be an idiot if he accepted said deal.

It doesn't matter. She had something to offer Helya, but you just dismiss that she has nothing to offer the Lich King?

Helya is not the Lich King.
The Forsaken don't have the same history with Helya as the Lich King.
We don't know what Sylvanas bartered with, but it was entailed that Sylvanas was trading a favour for the lantern.
We do know that Sylvanas was securing her people's future with the Valkyr.

Why is Bolvar more powerful? Nothing in the story shows that. Bolvar does not have the vast Scourge forces Arthas had, he does not have Frostmourne. What advantage Bolvar have over Arthas?

Yeah, Velen's vision of the Lich King wiping out all life on Azeroth and the Legion returning to a dead world doesn't show that Bolvar is a more prolific Lich King than Arthas or Ner'zhul. It's not like his skin is burnt and breaks, and blood is literally glowing red with Alextraza's flame inside him.

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More terrible doesn't mean more powerfull. Garrosh/Thrall were more terrible than Grommash, but never that powerfull.

TL;DR of the vision:
The new Lich King takes over Azeroth and the next Legion invasion is one where they come to an already dead world.

[Deleted]

More terrible doesn't mean more powerfull. Garrosh/Thrall were more terrible than Grommash, but never that powerfull.

Sorry, made a mistake there. I meant Garrosh were mor terrible than Grommash (and, well...no...Thrall was a stupid choice xD) but Grom was a better and more powerfull fighter.

[Dartz1979]

I don't ever wanna see sylvans die again seeing her sexyness on horde side is what keeps me playing horde besides who else female wise is thereon horde? ya cant count garona.

[DeicideUH]

The former Lich Kings did not seek out allies, they sought out subservient slaves. The closest thing to an ally that the Lich King had was Kel'thuzad, who chose to willingly serve Ner'zhul rather than become a servant with no will of their own, and he was still totally and completely loyal to the Lich King.

It should also be pointed out that Sylvanas, like all faction leaders, is powerful, but that's relative.

Arthas made deals with random trolls (remember Drakuru?) just so he could have agents ready to strike at their enemies. You can't dismiss how useful and powerful having the willing help of Sylvanas could be to the fledging, still weakened, Lich King.

The frost wryms belong to the Deathknights of Acherus.
The four horsemen are loyal to the Deathlord.
The Deathlord and their Deathknights are not confirmed to be under Bolvar's control. Their alliance is predicated on mutual survival, as the Legion will destroy the Frozen Throne and the Lich King should they come to Azeroth. Bolvar aided the Deathknights under the pretense that they would use the resources they were granted to fight the Legion. Sylvanas does not have this opportunity and has nothing to bargain. The Lich King isn't going to make a one-sided deal where Sylvanas gets what she wants and he get's nothing but her word that she may sometimes help him if she's in the mood, and he would be an idiot if he accepted said deal.

Why are you dismissing the possibility that Bolvar could be manipulating all of them and take control of anything raised throught his powers by snaping his fingers?
Or another possibility, that Bolvar is not seeking servitude, but powerful alliances for some purpose still not known?

Helya is not the Lich King.
The Forsaken don't have the same history with Helya as the Lich King.
We don't know what Sylvanas bartered with, but it was entailed that Sylvanas was trading a favour for the lantern.
We do know that Sylvanas was securing her people's future with the Valkyr.

We do know that the Lich King can also provide Sylvanas what she wants: a way to raise the dead and ensure her own survival.

Yeah, Velen's vision of the Lich King wiping out all life on Azeroth and the Legion returning to a dead world doesn't show that Bolvar is a more prolific Lich King than Arthas or Ner'zhul. It's not like his skin is burnt and breaks, and blood is literally glowing red with Alextraza's flame inside him.

You know Velen's visions are potential futures, not absolute certainties, right? If I remember correctly, the very point of the story was that he was lost on possibilities and needed to pay attention to the real world and lead his people.

TL;DR of the vision:
The new Lich King takes over Azeroth and the next Legion invasion is one where they come to an already dead world.

Well, seems an impossible right now, as the Legion invaded a still-living world.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I don't ever wanna see sylvans die again seeing her sexyness on horde side is what keeps me playing horde besides who else female wise is thereon horde? ya cant count garona.

You must have been downright ecstatic when Godfrey penetrated Sylvanas from behind.

[DeicideUH]

It does matter, you dont know if that, what Sylvanas payed to Helya, would be of use for Bolvar. Beside that, if she already GAVE it to Helya, she does not have it anymore

Usually, such deals often involve future payment. Nothing says she gave Helya anything yet.

(God, I'd love to know the details of the bargain).

[Deleted]

TL;DR of the vision:
The new Lich King takes over Azeroth and the next Legion invasion is one where they come to an already dead world.

But even than...only means that his plan will work. Maybe a better plan than Arthas had, but that doesn't mean more power in person.
But I get what you mean.

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Usually, such deals often involve future payment. Nothing says she gave Helya anything yet.

(God, I'd love to know the details of the bargain).

Yeah, right? I wanna know it too
Nonetheless, you don't know if that, what she promised Helya, would be of use for Bolvar.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Arthas made deals with random trolls (remember Drakuru?) just so he could have agents ready to strike at their enemies. You can't dismiss how useful and powerful having the willing help of Sylvanas could be to the fledging, still weakened, Lich King.

He made a deal with Drakuru to minimize the effort he would have to expend taking over Zul'drak. Sylvanas would not do the same to her people or the Horde, as doing the latter would lead to her people's death. Even then, Drakuru was a pawn and a slave to the Lich King's machinations, he was subservient.

Bolvar is not weak, he's just learning how to control the Scourge while not giving in to the corruption of the Helm of Dominion. Unless you can give an example of what Sylvanas can give that wouldn't entail servitude - no, working "with" the Lich King is a cop-out, as she has no such opportunity right now and the example you've given was a servant - she has nothing of worth to offer.

Why are you dismissing the possibility that Bolvar could be manipulating all of them and take control of anything raised throught his powers by snaping his fingers?
Or another possibility, that Bolvar is not seeking servitude, but powerful alliances for some purpose still not known?

If the Lich King could re-assert his control over undead that have broken free of his control, it would have been done already.
Why would the Lich King look for a tentative alliance, rather than total servitude?

We do know that the Lich King can also provide Sylvanas what she wants: a way to raise the dead and ensure her own survival.

Sure, and Darkmaster Gandling could likely give her what she wants as well. She needs a powerful necromancer - there's no evidence to support her resurrection being only brought about by Val'kyr - but none of them are trustworthy.

You know Velen's visions are potential futures, not absolute certainties, right? If I remember correctly, the very point of the story was that he was lost on possibilities and needed to pay attention to the real world and lead his people.

Velen's visions are what will happen should things continue as they are. They aren't visions, they're lucid guessing.
The fact is that it is all but confirmation that Bolvar, if he were to wage war against Azeroth, would not lose the conflict in the way Ner'zhul or Arthas did.

Well, it seems like this won't happen, since the Legion came before such an event happened.

Methinks you don't know then The Prophet's Vision was released (hint: prior to Legion).

[DeicideUH]

Yeah, right? I wanna know it too
Nonetheless, you don't know if that, what she promised Helya, would be of use for Bolvar.

Right, but it's foolish to just dismiss that an alliance wouldn't be interesting for Bolvar as well.

Some things I need to clarify about this thread:

- I'm not presuming the Lich King will repeat its predecessor. He may very well have other purposes instead of just destroying all life and ruling everything.
- I'm not presuming Sylvanas would accept to be a puppet. She may very well strike some other kind of deal, like: "I'll retrieve this powerful item for you, and you grant me the power to raise the dead".
- I'm not presuming Sylvanas will be a raid boss or whatever, just that she could make a deal of some kind with Bolvar.
- I'm not presuming the deal would be successful. A lot of things could go wrong. She could very well turn on him later; he could betray her; some meddling kids could stop the deal. Whatever.
- I'm not presuming how it would end. It could very well end in Sylvanas' redemption instead of damnation. Sometimes you need to feel the consequences of bad choices before you start doing the right things.

This thread is about possibilities. I see the possibility of the Lich King offering what Sylvanas wants. That's all.

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Bolvar is not weak, he's just learning how to control the Scourge while not giving in to the corruption of the Helm of Dominion. Unless you can give an example of what Sylvanas can give that wouldn't entail servitude - no, working "with" the Lich King is a cop-out, as she has no such opportunity right now and the example you've given was a servant - she has nothing of worth to offer.

The Ebon Blade is working with the Lich King. Does that makes them his servants?
Why couldn't Sylvanas strike a similar bargain?

If the Lich King could re-assert his control over undead that have broken free of his control, it would have been done already.
Why would the Lich King look for a tentative alliance, rather than total servitude?

I'm not talking about those freed before. I'm talking about the ones that are being raised throught his powers right now. How can we be sure that they are not secretly dominated by him? Maybe even they do not know it yet.

Sure, and Darkmaster Gandling could likely give her what she wants as well. She needs a powerful necromancer - there's no evidence to support her resurrection being only brought about by Val'kyr - but none of them are trustworthy.

Val'kyr are more powerful than necromancers.

Velen's visions are what will happen should things continue as they are. They aren't visions, they're lucid guessing.
The fact is that it is all but confirmation that Bolvar, if he were to wage war against Azeroth, would not lose the conflict in the way Ner'zhul or Arthas did.

Methinks you don't know then The Prophet's Vision was released (hint: prior to Legion).

You are not making sense. You yourself talks about the future seen as "proof" that Bolvar is way more powerful, while dismissing Bolvar is gathering power now, and also confirming that the future seen is only a possibility that could never happen. You can't point to a possible future that may never happen as if it were proof of anything in the present.

[Skoll Shorties]

I really don't want another Horde Leader to go down a dark path and meet their end.

First there was Garrosh...
Then there supposemly will be Slyvanas with this deal...
We already lost Cairne in Cataclsym and Vol'jin to a Felguard (Though he might return??) but still...

I'm kind of tired of Horde Leaders becoming antagonists or just being killed off. The Alliance don't even have the Magni argument anymore. They just lost Varian so far but they already had a King to take his place, meanwhile Trolls didn't even get a conversation on what their leader was it took a Blizz post to tell them that Rokhan was their current faction leader. Then there was the situation with Thrall and Garrosh where after Garrosh broke free and Thrall went on retirement it took an entire expansion to get Saurfang on the Throne for the Orcs.

I just don't want to see another beloved Horde leader perish. Say what you will about Slyvanas but I do not want another Horde Leader to bite the big one personally. If they are to kill her off, i'd like them to surprise me with how she dies at the very least.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I doubt Sylvanas would work with the Lich King unless there was some good reason that protected her from hell/damnation. That includes the Forsaken. Bolvar right now seems to be rising in power for whatever reason but it isn't something that's necessarily what we'd like. The Bolvar we know is gone, it's some dark version of him.

[Deleted]

You can improve it by staying on-topic.

Oh my sweet summer child.

I'd say she'd be much more likely to buddy up with someone more powerful, a certain brewer in the Valley of the Four Winds perhaps?

[Magical Mudcrab]

The Ebon Blade is working with the Lich King. Does that makes them his servants?
Why couldn't Sylvanas strike a similar bargain?

Do you really not get it?
The Lich King has allied with the Deathlord and his Deathknights under the pretense that they would aid in the fight against the Legion. There is mutual benefit. As of yet you've shown nothing that Sylvanas can offer. Saying what amounts to "Well she could maybe sometimes, if it suits her, work with the Lich King when its in her best interest in exchange for never dying, because that's how deals are made" is not constructive. She cannot get the same deal because the Legion threat will be neutralized in 7.3.

I'm not talking about those freed before. I'm talking about the ones that are being raised throught his powers right now. How can we be sure that they are not secretly dominated by him? Maybe even they do not know it yet.

That would be awful story writing, especially considering that there is no precedent set that would allow the Lich King to remotely take over undead controlled by someone else. In fact, the current precedents are quite to the contrary. If the Lich King could, Ner'zhul would have taken remote control over the undead risen by the Dreadlords in Lordaeron that were created via the Plague of Undeath which was conjured by Ner'zhul within the Frozen Throne.

Val'kyr are more powerful than necromancers.

And is totally irrelevant to what I stated.

You are not making sense. You yourself talks about the future seen as "proof" that Bolvar is way more powerful, while dismissing Bolvar is gathering power now, and also confirming that the future seen is only a possibility that could never happen. You can't point to a possible future that may never happen as if it were proof of anything in the present.

Velen's vision was of a Scourge invasion, lead by the new Lich King (Bolvar), that would occur prior to the Legion invading again.
It should also be noted that saying "Well, a possibility isn't proof of what will happen" is correct, but the vision is indicative of what would happen if the scenario were to occur. That is, the vision is what will happen if the events of the vision unfold and what will result. It's incredibly pedantic to act as though the visions have no merit when his visions are relatively accurate, showing what has happened, what is happening, and what can happen. Obviously the future can be changed, which is why Elisande was surprised when we were triumphant over her.

That said, you still have no proof that Bolvar is fathering forces. It's not even speculation as there isn't even evidence which loosely supports the basis.

[DeicideUH]

Do you really not get it?
The Lich King has allied with the Deathlord and his Deathknights under the pretense that they would aid in the fight against the Legion. There is mutual benefit. As of yet you've shown nothing that Sylvanas can offer. Saying what amounts to "Well she could maybe sometimes, if it suits her, work with the Lich King when its in her best interest in exchange for never dying, because that's how deals are made" is not constructive. She cannot get the same deal because the Legion threat will be neutralized in 7.3.

I don't need to show proof to something that is pure speculation of a possible future. If there was a 100% certain bargain that Sylvanas could make with the Lich King, it wouldn't be speculation, it would be fact.

You know what speculation is, right? Doesn't seen so.

That would be awful story writing, especially considering that there is no precedent set that would allow the Lich King to remotely take over undead controlled by someone else. In fact, the current precedents are quite to the contrary. If the Lich King could, Ner'zhul would have taken remote control over the undead risen by the Dreadlords in Lordaeron that were created via the Plague of Undeath which was conjured by Ner'zhul within the Frozen Throne.

He had control. The only reason Sylvanas and the Forsaken were freed from him was because he got weaker as the Frozen Throne was losing its powers.

And is totally irrelevant to what I stated.

No, it's not. Necromancers aren't powerful enough to keep the Forsaken running. You'd need a ton of them. Sylvanas needs something stronger than a few necromancers, and even the Val'kyr are not enough.

Velen's vision was of a Scourge invasion, lead by the new Lich King (Bolvar), that would occur prior to the Legion invading again.
It should also be noted that saying "Well, a possibility isn't proof of what will happen" is correct, but the vision is indicative of what would happen if the scenario were to occur. That is, the vision is what will happen if the events of the vision unfold and what will result. It's incredibly pedantic to act as though the visions have no merit when his visions are relatively accurate, showing what has happened, what is happening, and what can happen. Obviously the future can be changed, which is why Elisande was surprised when we were triumphant over her.

Well, if it has a chance to not happen, you can't say it will happen. That's not how it works.

That said, you still have no proof that Bolvar is fathering forces. It's not even speculation as there isn't even evidence which loosely supports the basis.

Again, speculation. Ok, then. You won't get "proof" because I'm not arguing I have "proof", I'm just raising possibilities.

It's funny that you want proof from random possibilities but accept random possibilities as proof...