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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Ok you keep telling yourself that.

    The fact is PvP instances with 10v10 (RBG) and completing objectives to win takes exponentially more "skill", communication, and on-the-fly strategy than a simple deathmatch 3v3, where all you have to do is kill 1 enemy to win. You can have several "3v3" fights (or 2v4 or 4v5, etc.) at any nodes in a single BG and still not win the match, and must be ready to face any comp possible not just the most common 3 or 4 meta comps like in arena. Not to mention at the same time constantly calling incs, terrain considerations and advantages, being aware of FCs on both teams, and more.

    Don't know how anyone could even begin to think that, "arena is the only part of PvP that takes a significant amount of skill". It's actually the opposite.

    first: all the good players are actually playing arenas..

    second: in arenas you have to actually use your abilities the way u supposed to use them, not spam them constantly.. basically no aoe bullshit.. in most rbgs(on HIGH level.. high like super high) you dont even use you cc like at all you just do dps.. other than that all the other parts of pvp take zero skill(even duels nowadays are just braindead)

    majority of macroses(targeting etc.) arent even being used in more than 5v5 pvp(there are no binds for them either) majority of macroses arent used either etc.


    well you probably never played arenas above even 2k.. all you do is probably que random bgs all day rofl
    Last edited by Craaazyyy; 2017-07-04 at 04:42 PM.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    I can compare them when the only fundamental difference is the lack of a queue.
    Meaning, you don't know the difference where players just plays for fun, and when players plays for competition. Good work buddy! Excellent comeback.

  3. #243
    Bad reward system, unlevel playing ground and biased devs ruined PVP.

    I think it's been driven into the ground, but I'll kick that dead horse once more. The reward system for WoWs pvp might be the worst of any pvp game in existence. Locking skills or gear behind either a skill or grinding wall is not only silly, it's antithetical to what most pvpers want. I cannot imagine how this expansions pvp's rewards system appeals to anyone. It pushes the next point : Unlevel playing grounds.

    Why are abilities, talents, gear, ilvls, etc. all influencing rated pvp? I honestly cannot comprehend this. Most people who actually care about PVP want a level playing field. It's the most frustrating experience when you are better than your opponent but lost due to not grinding hard enough or not having access to the best gear. Why ilvls influence anything in rated pvp will never make sense to me. Then you have a more core feature of the game bleeding into pvp: racials. There are a few standouts, but overall I just don't understand why they exist at all. Personal blood lust? 20% more damage? Free trinket? Why add those to pvp at all? Just remove racials. You have some BG imbalances, but I don't think most people really care about BG balance to begin with.

    Then you have the biased devs. Not much to say here. Holinka exclusively played Warlock + DK when it was busted af, abusing all of the mechanics of it while ignoring the calls for those two classes to see the nerf bat. We had 6 months of warriors 1-shotting people in equal gear. I'm sure most players really enjoyed legendaries in pvp. They were fun and interactive when 2 healers + warrior, dk or paladin could just roflstomp your team because of how stupid op their oranges were. Find what class the pvp head plays - play that.

    Arena didn't ruin pvp, individuals in Blizzard having too much control and bad reward systems did.
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  4. #244
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    first: all the good players are actually playing arenas..

    second: in arenas you have to actually use your abilities the way u supposed to use them, not spam them constantly.. basically no aoe bullshit.. in most rbgs(on HIGH level.. high like super high) you dont even use you cc like at all you just do dps.. other than that all the other parts of pvp take zero skill(even duels nowadays are just braindead)

    majority of macroses(targeting etc.) arent even being used in more than 5v5 pvp(there are no binds for them either) majority of macroses arent used either etc.


    well you probably never played arenas above even 2k.. all you do is probably que random bgs all day rofl
    Looks like you're having trouble with reading comprehension. If you think pillar humping, dampening, and target-1, 2, 3 macros is "skilled", or if you think CC isn't used in RBG, then I don't know what else to tell ya.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Restors View Post
    Dont compare rated PVP with some casual Random BG. Me personally couldn't care less about winning, I enter BGs for the fun of killing the opposite team. And there are lots of me that feels the same way. And most of my friends cares just about Honorable Kills.
    And people like you are the cancer, not the symptom. Good job.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Ok you keep telling yourself that.

    The fact is PvP instances with 10v10 (RBG) and completing objectives to win takes exponentially more "skill", communication, and on-the-fly strategy than a simple deathmatch 3v3, where all you have to do is kill 1 enemy to win. You can have several "3v3" fights (or 2v4 or 4v5, etc.) at any nodes in a single BG and still not win the match, and must be ready to face any comp possible not just the most common 3 or 4 meta comps like in arena. Not to mention at the same time constantly calling incs, terrain considerations and advantages, being aware of FCs on both teams, and more.

    Don't know how anyone could even begin to think that, "arena is the only part of PvP that takes a significant amount of skill". It's actually the opposite.
    Wow. You seriously believe RBGs (ie a 15min game where 1/2 of it you're AFKing dead, camping a flag or running to somewhere) with 10 players (so you're only 1/10th of the comp instead of 1/3rd) is more skillful than arena? Additionally being 10 people makes communication so hard that you have to silence everyone and use a single TC (basically removing most individual skill), if you talk too much you're ruining stuff, very skillful indeed. And where 'finesse' plays is basically "mass grip->solar beam" and the rest of it is spam PvE damage (max out on moonkins, sps and warlocks yo). The cancer that is tanks are a thing in RBG, that should say enough about the skill in RBGs.

    Your "XvY" argument is just silly, those encounters are almost the same as a random BG encounter XvY encounter which no one in their right mind would call skillful. Why? Since you can't spam communicate like you can in Arena (because if there are 2-3 skirmishes going on you're going to overrun the voice comm) you're basically confined to very little communication => low skill & complexity. Also the sick moves that can be pulled off with the help of targetting macros make the game much more skillful by making new plays possible requiring very good reflexes, regardless of how you think it's not "skill".

    Also, positioning in arena is a far far greater thing than in RBGs, and sure you can be a "fuck pillar humping" caveman if you want to, but it still doesn't change the fact that positioning yourself correctly requires skill, especially if there are a lot of choices (unlike open fielded RBGs without LoS).

    Basically, anyone who claims RBGs / duels / wPvP / random BGs require more skill than 3v3 arena are clueless. I do however admit that the skill in arena has decreased with WoD and Legion, but it's still miles ahead of the others.

  7. #247
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RelaZ View Post
    *snip
    Apparently you're bored tonight so you're looking for an argument, like in the hunter thread where I said nothing about the OT and you posted at me about it, but I was simply agreeing with someone on another issue.

    Difficulty is ofc subjective, but the main problem in WoW (or PvP generally) is people wanting to wave their inadequate dicks by claiming: "My gamemode haz MOAR SKILLZ THAN URS!!1"

    I gave the reasons above that I think RBG is inherently more difficult than arena, or takes greater or a different set of skills in addition to what you need in arena. BTW, a good leader, FC, and TC in RBG take info from anyone in the match that's relevant and they need to know. They don't "silence everyone", they just don't clog up comms with unneeded bullshit. People are expected to call incs, secondary fights can call TC quickly and get out of the way, when people will be rezzing, where and who should join up for a node push, where healers are, the FC and EFC situation, and so on. All of which a good team can coordinate and leads to wins.

    Much more complex than just, "OK...keep the healer CC'ed, use kicks & dispels and focus the mage. OK now switch to rogue..."

    Sounds like you haven't the foggiest clue and haven't been on a decent RBG team ever. And tanks?

  8. #248
    Put more resources into open world PvP and add more casual PvP modes. The game will immediately become a lot more fun.

    If WoD ruined PvE because all you could do was raid, then Legion ruined PvP because all you could do was arena.
    "Leave your personal feedback, don't try to convince them that "everyone" hates something." - Ion Hazzikostas
    It's actually Wowhead, if I quoted directly from Ion the signature would drag out too long.

  9. #249
    Deleted
    WoW PvP will continue to die the more they focus on arenas IMHO.. Only way it could survive this way is if it would become a huge eSport on par with LoL, DotA 2, Overwatch, CS:GO, etc.. even HotS. But due to WoW being MMORPG, thus unable to have complete focus on arena balance, this will never happen ever.


    Ever since MoP when they started ruining the game I've been preaching everywhere that the focus on World PvP should return and that there's a HUGE need for soloqueue if people would prefer the instanced type of PvP.


    The best thing about this game for me has always been World PvP. I can't even count the amount of currently immensely-nostalgic moments I've had in both WotLK and Cataclysm (I was still very new to the game in TBC). And it was so damn fun for a couple of very simple reasons:

    1. There were incentives to go out in the open and meet other people. Now, for some time, leveling in dungeons has become more efficient. The hell?

    2. There were incentives to kill people of the opposite faction out in the open (I can imagine even more so pre-WotLK).

    3. There was a tight community before the cross-realm bullshit that could immerse you in the world in a way no other feature ever could. Unfortunately that is pretty much irreversible nowadays.

    4. There was class depth. Even though class design has never been perfect everyone had much more tools than they have now which also allowed for the skill ceiling to be much much higher. The focus this expansion has been ENTIRELY on damage rotations and their involving abilities. Sure, now we can deal damage in so many more interesting ways, wow.. But at what cost?? Outplaying multiple people at once out in the open in Northrend on my Nelf Feral Druid felt so damn rewarding. Instant cyclones, roots, shadowmeld, flight form... And when someone more geared or skilled than you came and shut you down you could always try out different ways to approach and would eventually be rewarded by defeating him. The skill ceiling was so high that I found myself constantly improving on every single class/spec I played.

    5. Last but not least - gear was not fucked up. Legion put the final nail in the coffin of World PvP. Remember those days when PvP in Diablo 3 was anticipated? Eventually it was scrapped as damage started getting out of control and they decided to rather capitalize on that. People wanted templates in PvP to even things out but Blizzard never bothered. I swear Legion has literally become what Diablo 3 would've been, just with a different perspective. We have bounties in the form of world quests. We have greater rifts in the form of Mythic+ dungeons. We have the same damn "only damage and nothing else" class design. We have the same ridiculous PvE damage with all those accessible legendaries and item effects. But this time around they just templated instanced PvP as was suggested in Diablo 3 before so it could somehow continue to work instead of letting people oneshot each other like it would happen in Diablo 3.



    WoW started rotting in MoP, honestly, but at least classes had enough tools to feel good. Duels which were the natural extension of World PvP were at least still there back then. I honestly have a lot of fond memories from dueling in MoP. I literally felt I could win any spec vs any spec if I outplayed the other guy, provided he wasn't stacked out in full PvE gear, of course. In WoD they killed duels by making them into a boring damage-fest. People would also hangout around their Garrisons most of the time (most autistic place ever to be had in this game) so naturally you would duel outside of them. But guess what.. the cross-realm bullshit got to a brand new next level and every single time you got out of your Garrison there were different people there.. Funny, right? Now Legion is the same as WoD, even more focused on damage... but wait a second... it's Diablo 3 and the templates aren't even on... so it literally takes a single ability to win.. Fun, right? I guessed so.


    So then again - the most important question stands - how come we are playing Diablo 3 now? At least make Diablo 3 like WoW? Now we have two identical games which makes no sense.


    TL;DR: There's A TON that has to change before they could ever bring World PvP back, if it's even possible at this point. But in order for this expansion to continue to work, at least for me, at least soloqueue has to be added. Apparently if you want to PvP now you have to do arenas, at least make them more accessible. The less time I've got for gaming over the years, the whole "meta" thing that's gone into people's dumb heads, and the fact that literally none of my friends play this game anymore has honestly made playing arenas for me literally impossible unless I'm super lucky in the group finder but then again, if that's the case I'd rather go play a ticket in the lottery.
    Last edited by mmocce32bc34b9; 2017-07-05 at 08:02 AM.

  10. #250
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstrike View Post
    Arenas ruined PvP. It's an unpopular opinion and I can almost feel the rage boiling, but let me explain:

    When you think about RPG battles, what do you imagine? Most likely something like WSG, AB or AV -- A battleground. With objectives. Not just a deathmatch in a small room full of pillars. Now, deathmatch has it's time and it's place, and I'm not here to say it should completely disappear. However, I do think ranked WoW PvP -- and arenas -- needs to evolve with the times.

    The problems that come from PvP being reduced to a glorified deathmatch are numerous -- the neverending 'melee vs ranged' debate that in my opinion shouldn't even be a debate. Melee is meant to win in a straight up 1v1 -always- against a ranged due to ranged role in any rpg being a backline high-burst damage character; 2nd problem is this endless arms race of cc / mobility / damage. Hp bloating. Various (failed) resilience experiments to offset the former. Etc., etc. -- All that stems from inherently broken 'deathmatch' arena system that shouldn't have been a benchmark for balance in a game like WoW in the first place.

    How can we fix it? Well; For example, they could ape GW2 and bring back a 5v5 bracket with smaller maps that have 3 control points. It'll be a smaller scale tactical engagement with mandatory rotations and generally more objective focused gameplay. Or hell it could even be a 3v3 with 2 points, where you respawn if you die but the time to control points is much shorter than in BGs (think need 200 points to win instead of 1500).

    It'd make for a much more pleasant niche than RBGs (when I quit a few months back I didn't have 2 people to PvP with, let alone 9...), and it'll be much more e-sports friendly than -- and let's be honest here -- dead on arrival concept of arenas as they are now.
    You CAN'T FORCE people to play BG(or some other PvP activities).

    Are you fucking nuts? The system is there, they would support the demand, but nobody is using it(or the casual group is and thats nice with some RBG from time to time).

    So retarded.

    TLDR: What kind world do you live in? If you like WPVP go gather some friends and do it.
    Last edited by mmocd6fe3ee806; 2017-07-05 at 08:08 AM.

  11. #251
    You cannot force people to play any part of wow, they will quit, as vastly happened in pvp. But you can put incentives for doing it. Currently, I find no incentive to go either form of pvp, instanced or open world. Lots of reasons that I share view on poured in this tread, thus no point to repeat.

    Wpvp is not fun just because one shooting people is no counter play, no feel of engaging a fight. Is like killing boars 20 lvls below, what can be fun in that: no treat, no xp, no relevant loot, therefore pointless.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Looks like you're having trouble with reading comprehension. If you think pillar humping, dampening, and target-1, 2, 3 macros is "skilled", or if you think CC isn't used in RBG, then I don't know what else to tell ya.
    dampening? when i played the game dampening wasnt a thing.. dampening is a dumb mechanic in general and it shouldnt be in the game to begin with

    btw pruning ruined not only arenas but every type of pvp so you know.. arenas are still the highest tier anyways..

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Apparently you're bored tonight so you're looking for an argument, like in the hunter thread where I said nothing about the OT and you posted at me about it, but I was simply agreeing with someone on another issue.
    You were fully on board with all the hate on Krassz and that he was retarded, I simply quoted the last person to join in on the "he's retarded train". Maybe you should've explained how what he was saying made perfect sense instead of just agreeing with the actual retards in the thread if you wanted people to think you actually agreed with him. Also censoring (blocking) your debating opponent just shows you lost the argument.

    Difficulty is ofc subjective, but the main problem in WoW (or PvP generally) is people wanting to wave their inadequate dicks by claiming: "My gamemode haz MOAR SKILLZ THAN URS!!1"
    There is nothing subjective about seeing that in RBGs you're afking half the game, only a few people are communicating (and in much less detail than arena), the overall skillplays are fewer and it's mostly just a PvE fight.

    I gave the reasons above that I think RBG is inherently more difficult than arena, or takes greater or a different set of skills in addition to what you need in arena. BTW, a good leader, FC, and TC in RBG take info from anyone in the match that's relevant and they need to know. They don't "silence everyone", they just don't clog up comms with unneeded bullshit. People are expected to call incs, secondary fights can call TC quickly and get out of the way, when people will be rezzing, where and who should join up for a node push, where healers are, the FC and EFC situation, and so on. All of which a good team can coordinate and leads to wins.
    Yes they do. If everyone started talking the way good people talk in arena the chat room would explode and no one would hear anything, that's the downside of having 10 players. That's why you have a TC who calls targets and people don't call every single small detail (like they do in arena). If you think the occasional "X is here/moving here" makes RBGs more communicative than arena idk what to say.

    Much more complex than just, "OK...keep the healer CC'ed, use kicks & dispels and focus the mage. OK now switch to rogue..."
    You think that is more analogous to arena communication than RBG? Yeah if that's what you communicate when in arena I can see why you hate it. That's the level of communication found in RBGs, plus the occasional "they're going to X" call. Again, there is no way you could ever argue that RBGs are the more "talkative" form of PvP. It's similar (similar, not the same) to how Mythics are much less talkative than Mythic+.

    Sounds like you haven't the foggiest clue and haven't been on a decent RBG team ever. And tanks?
    Sounds more like you haven't been on a decent PVP team ever whereas I've been on both good RBG and Arena teams. Yeah man, you remember Cata & MoP where tanks were a large part of RBGs? You know when RBGs were actually not dead? No? Not my fault you havn't been around.

  14. #254
    Competitive pvp activity peaked in TBC and wotlk when arena was at its peak as a potential esport. This was also when WoW peaked as a whole.

  15. #255
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RelaZ View Post
    You were fully on board with all the hate on Krassz and that he was retarded, I simply quoted the last person to join in on the "he's retarded train". Maybe you should've explained how what he was saying made perfect sense instead of just agreeing with the actual retards in the thread if you wanted people to think you actually agreed with him. Also censoring (blocking) your debating opponent just shows you lost the argument.
    What? I didn't say a fucking word either way in the hunter topic nor about Krassz re the topic. Or can't you comprehend what was posted? I agreed with Kag about blocking him because of my experience with him in previous threads. That's it. GTFO with the made up bullshit.

    Ignoring someone like that is the best thing to do when, despite the facts or how cogently they're argued, no matter how many times they've been proven wrong and full of shit, they just go into 'Repeat' mode or lame attacks that have nothing to do with the discussion. It means there's no point arguing further with an idiot, not that the idiot "won" the argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by RelaZ View Post
    There is nothing subjective about seeing that in RBGs you're afking half the game, only a few people are communicating (and in much less detail than arena), the overall skillplays are fewer and it's mostly just a PvE fight.
    Again, that may be your experience with mediocre teams, but it hasn't been mine.


    Quote Originally Posted by RelaZ View Post
    Yes they do. If everyone started talking the way good people talk in arena the chat room would explode and no one would hear anything, that's the downside of having 10 players. That's why you have a TC who calls targets and people don't call every single small detail (like they do in arena). If you think the occasional "X is here/moving here" makes RBGs more communicative than arena idk what to say.
    Notice I didn't say "call every single small detail" but you go ahead and keep inventing things. There is a happy medium, a correct way to comm in RBG that is effective but not excessive.


    Quote Originally Posted by RelaZ View Post
    Sounds more like you haven't been on a decent PVP team ever whereas I've been on both good RBG and Arena teams. Yeah man, you remember Cata & MoP where tanks were a large part of RBGs? You know when RBGs were actually not dead? No? Not my fault you havn't been around.
    Dream on, Skippy. I've been on teams that were as good as any at the top, except they refused to cheat. That's why most of them with some integrity still intact left the scene, as I did. They wanted to earn their wins/titles/ranks legit. Titles/ranks mean shit anymore since Rated PvP has such a bad rep now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    dampening? when i played the game dampening wasnt a thing.. dampening is a dumb mechanic in general and it shouldnt be in the game to begin with

    btw pruning ruined not only arenas but every type of pvp so you know.. arenas are still the highest tier anyways..
    But dampening IS a thing now. That's why you can't simply ignore it when talking about arena.

    Pruning is ONE of MANY things that ruined every type of PvP. That does not somehow make arena the "highest tier" of PvP. Several examples were given by bloodknight above, mainly re wPvP but much applies to other PvP as well.

    Blizz is trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. It isn't going to work since WoW is of course a MMORPG, not a genre that adapts well to 6 ADD morons hopping around on simplified, 5-button chars for a few minutes in small maps.
    Last edited by Caolela; 2017-07-06 at 06:49 AM.

  16. #256
    Imo, PvP after WoTLK was just horrible. Vanilla was fun - good world PvP, BGs were new and fun, and there was awesome faction pride with Horde v Alliance. TBC saw the death of world PvP that still stands to this day, but arena was really fun. Arena got even better in WoTLK and aside from certain specs/comps not being as viable (compared to today/later xpacs), I think it was the peak of arena/PvP gameplay for WoW.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    arenas were awesome when the classes had depth, before the d3 devs got their hands on them and ruined the masterpieces they had inherited
    Classes lost their depth long long before that. If you don't like Legion, you can send a large part of the blame towards the D3 devs...but class balance / pruning / homogenization / etc happened long before they got involved.

  18. #258
    Pvp honestly does feel horrible to play but I think the worst part right now is how so many previously baseline abilities are tied to honor talents. Why don't I have baseline spell reflect anymore or a more powerful bladestorm. It'd be amazing to have dragon charge during non pvp world quests. Honor talents were a horrible idea in all ways.
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  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    What? I didn't say a fucking word either way in the hunter topic nor about Krassz re the topic. Or can't you comprehend what was posted? I agreed with Kag about blocking him because of my experience with him in previous threads. That's it. GTFO with the made up bullshit.

    Ignoring someone like that is the best thing to do when, despite the facts or how cogently they're argued, no matter how many times they've been proven wrong and full of shit, they just go into 'Repeat' mode or lame attacks that have nothing to do with the discussion. It means there's no point arguing further with an idiot, not that the idiot "won" the argument.
    So you agreed with 'Kag''s decision to block him because 'Kag' was losing the argument. You agreed on his decision that Krassz was wrong and that the block was justified, which it clearly wasn't. Sure I could've quoted all of you and not just you, but as I said I picked the last one in the thread.

    Don't know what color the sky is in Krassz's world, but no one will ever convince him it's other than what his delusions tell him.
    You even fucking wrote this lol. Dream on all you want about him 'not having the facts on his side etc' and it being 'delusions' but the truth is 'Kag' and that other guy were completely incoherent and made no sense. Krassz was the one with the truth on his side. Representation and class design have nothing in common.

    "Yeah guys I called this guy fucking delusional in response to another persons decision to block him but I clearly didn't disagree with him duuuh" - you should've said Kag and the other guy were being stupid and wrong instead of praising their decision if you disagreed with them.

    Again, that may be your experience with mediocre teams, but it hasn't been mine.
    You mean good teams. Very good teams. You can ask anyone with both good arena and rbg experience and they'll tell you that RBGs require far less skill to succeed at. It's common knowledge at this point and only RBG-fan boys disagree.

    Notice I didn't say "call every single small detail" but you go ahead and keep inventing things. There is a happy medium, a correct way to comm in RBG that is effective but not excessive.
    Not excessive? Good excuse. Excessive is what baddies call it when they can't cope. What your 'happy medium' means is there's less skill involved because you don't have to communicate as much.

    Dream on, Skippy. I've been on teams that were as good as any at the top, except they refused to cheat. That's why most of them with some integrity still intact left the scene, as I did. They wanted to earn their wins/titles/ranks legit. Titles/ranks mean shit anymore since Rated PvP has such a bad rep now.
    Yeah no, RBGs didn't have any rep since basically Cata. And I've been in teams at the top too (you know, in Cata and early MoP) and I know people who've been in the very best RBG teams in the world (at the time), and guess what - every single time the arena-"main" players are better than the rbg-"main" players. Every. Single. Time. Because RBGs are easy mode in comparison to arenas.

    Blizz is trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. It isn't going to work since WoW is of course a MMORPG, not a genre that adapts well to 6 ADD morons hopping around on simplified, 5-button chars for a few minutes in small maps.
    A clear case of anyone who's better than me is a nerd and a tryhard.

    And no one in the high level Arena community asked for classes to become these 5-button shells they are now. That's a PvE thing. Anyone trying to blame it on 'muuh e-sports' or 'because arena' is simply retarded. The entire WoD & Legion PvP alpha/beta forums were just one big complaint about pruning, with mostly arena players being the ones doing the complaining.

    Also who are you to decide what works and what doesn't in an MMORPG? WoW is by far the most successful MMORPG to this date, and it has had Arenas (no matter how much you dislike it) as its main PvP end-game for almost all it's lifetime and has had a healthy playerbase for PvP up until recently when its developers went "well fuck PvP", so it clearly has worked.

  20. #260
    Deleted
    arena is fine if thats your thing but if you tune the whole community on 3 vs 3 then you will ruin the pvp game play (we dont all have a healer bind to us) and then this ridiculus dammadge output these day`s and then blizz is saying it fine the way it is?????????????????????.

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