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  1. #121
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cizr View Post
    When he took Frostmourne and killed his own men with it. Then again it stole his soul. Was he even responsible for his actions after that point?
    Just because Aquamonkey has been so kind to post it here.

    Originally Posted by Chris Metzen
    I would presume that many of you know the story of Arthas, the paladin, the Prince of Lordaeron who, as the Scourge started to show itself in his homeland, he fought the good fight. And the harder he sought to stem the tide of death as a result of the Scourge, the more it wore him down. And the more worn down he got, he started to betray his morals, started to betray the tenants that defined him as a paladin. Ultimately, he succumbed to the darkness he was trying to defeat. (BlizzCon2007)
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  2. #122
    Arthas didn't become evil until he picked up Frostmourne. He has done a lot of questionable decisions in a rather short notice, but they weren't made for the sake of being evil. He has always tried to do the best for his people and his kingdom. The Culling of Stratholme was a sad moment in history but it was something that needed to be done, Mal'Ganis was actively harvesting villagers and all over the city they were succumbing to the plague. Uther had no idea how the plague works and had no better alternative solution, leaving his pupil to do the job. Arthas's lust for vengeance is caused while he had to put down his own people, not wanting to experience such a thing again and making sure his kingdom would be save.

    Destroying his own ships was a necessary tactic to remain on Northrend until Mal'Ganis is defeated, he had good intentions but at this point he was betraying his own morals to do what he thinks is right. Betraying the mercenaries is a dick move, but at the same time its hard to feel sorry for mercenaries as they are often considered scum. Arthas got what he wanted out of them and decided that they were no longer his allies after the job was done, its kinda how the mercenary world goes.

    I'd say the build up to Arthas's downfall when he picked up Frostmourne has been done extremely well, making the human campaign in WC3 one of my favorites. His character has flaws like allowing vengeance to take the best of him (like Uther pointed out that thats not the paladins way), he can be arrogant and wasn't ready to make all the big decisions. I somewhat hoped that at the end of WotLK he could be redeemed back to a paladin, trying to reclaim Lordaeron as Sylvanas goes batshit (she and the forsaken would have little reason to stick around). But if they keep Arthas dead then I'ma lso fine with it, he's one of the very few characters in WoW that had a proper story arc with an ending, without being milked for the sake of fan service (*COUGH* *COUGH* ILLIDAN *COUGH* SYLVANAS *COUGH* *COUGH*)... lemme drink someting.

  3. #123
    I don't think Arthas turned "evil", he just lost it in his quest for vengeance. Cleaning Stratholme was a first step, but was done for the better good. Then he burned his men's ships to prevent them from going back, this is where is madness started. Once he got Frostmourne, he wasn't the same anymore and fell under the influence of Ner'zhul (Aka Lich King). His judgement got clouded and he became a pawn of the scourge. He got played, fell into the trap and became someone else.

    When we kill him, he says hes surrounded by darkness, and his father says he's now free. He did turned evil, his thirst for vengeance triggered it all (being naive and still young), but it wasnt of his own doing in the end. The fact the he hide his heart in a side-quest prove that he wasn't all that bad, just "possessed".

    He was still one of the most badass vilain in the WoW storyline, IMO.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deviant008 View Post
    Thats not true. Arthas was helpless when Invincible died, he never wanted to be helpless like that again. So he became a Paladin to protect and help his people.
    No, Invicible died because Arthas' pride and brashness, by forcing the poor horse on a snowstorm. After he killed Invicible, he decided to not that happen ever again because of his pride.

  5. #125
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    "Evil" is both relative and subjective - where Arthas became "evil" in the arc of his story is highly dependent on how you define goodness. Arthas betrayed the essence of his Paladin training, faith, and nature at Stratholme when he adopted the pragmatic (and arguably necessary) strategy of putting innocent villagers to the flame to prevent them (or spare them) from undeath and service to the demon Mal'ganis. He didn't make an actively malevolent decision until Northrend, when he turned on the mercenaries he had hired by blaming them for burning the return ships and putting them to the sword - and I don't think there's much of a justification for that particular decision. He most certainly lost any chance of redemption when he took up Frostmourne and it claimed his soul.

    Any one of those acts could be construed as his proverbial start of darkness, but I personally don't think there was any switch or particular point at which Arthas "became evil." The weight of tragedy, desperation, and vengeance was a slow and gradual thing with its start well before Stratholme. He saw what the Plague of Undeath could do, put two and two together and began to fear what they could mean for his beloved homeland. Anxiety mounted and so grew a need to revenge himself on the architect of his fear - first Kel'thuzad and then his "superior" Mal'ganis. There wasn't a single point where a switch was flipped and Arthas became evil. It was an gradual process and by the time Arthas had arrived at the cradle of Frostmourne he had been completely and irrevocably hollowed by the traumas he had experienced.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  6. #126
    If i remember correctly it was the moment arthas took frostmourn , while the demon that was guarding it (i think it was a demon) told him that he protected him from the blade not the other way around . I think the moment Arthas gone full evil was that specific moment.

  7. #127
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zigrifid View Post
    If i remember correctly it was the moment arthas took frostmourn , while the demon that was guarding it (i think it was a demon) told him that he protected him from the blade not the other way around . I think the moment Arthas gone full evil was that specific moment.
    It was a Revenant, called The Guardian. Very interesting character with little to no explanation, really; he was an undead apparently not under the control of Ner'zhul and set against his agenda.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Stratholme was mostly him killing infected people. It might seem evil, but in his heart he knew he was doing a good thing.

    That's not true for burning the ships in Northrend, he knows it's evil and doesn't care. So for me that is the moment.
    sry burning the ships was not evil at all it was Logical move by him, it prevented his army going home due to kings orders.

    it was evil, that he killed the mercenaries, this was ultimately his turning point, and an unnecessary cruelity.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2017-07-06 at 12:08 PM.

  9. #129
    When? The moment he picked up Frostmourne.
    Why? Because it corrupted him. Made him loose alot of emotions. He did not feel regret, grief, pitty or anything.

  10. #130
    In a way, I don't think there was a single moment he "turned"; rather, I think Arthas always had a lot of insecurity and that festered within him over time. From his insecurity around Varian to his fears about how his people would see him; his insecurity with Jaina and Kael'thas and then his readiness to become a Husband/Father/King; his insecurity around his worthiness to wield the Light and his insecurity in the strength of the Light itself.

    All of these points lead to one decision or another that lead to his isolation, quest for power and desire for vengeance. One might even argue that his genuine affection for the Scourge as his "family that could never leave or betray him" was a symptom of that insecurity. This, I think, is a recurring theme in Warcraft about darkness not being created in one moment, but rather, it is borne from a darkness already within someone that is never resolved.

    This was best highlighted by the MoP/Sha storylines but Illidan, Gul'dan (mostly AU, though MU has been retconned to match now), Garrosh, Deathwing and almost any story-line where corruption is involved uses this theme. Whilst heroes are forged out of facing their insecurities, weaknesses and problems: Varian/Lo'gosh and Thrall/Go'el come to mind as characters that (literally) reconciled with themselves and became more stable for it.

  11. #131
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    i always laugh when people say paladins don't easily succumb to vengeance when they have an entire spec that is named retribution. it's called that and not justice for a reason.
    Last edited by mmoc982b0e8df8; 2017-07-06 at 02:38 PM.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Betraying your own soldiers and condemning them to a likely death is what most people would consider evil.
    but it isn't. Because it was for a greater good, the campaign against the scourge had to continue.

    the killing of the mercenaries was evil.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    but it isn't. Because it was for a greater good, the campaign against the scourge had to continue.
    It wasn't for the greater good. It was for Arthas' ego and personal vendetta. They were ordered to return, Arthas made them deserters.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by thesmall001 View Post
    In a way, I don't think there was a single moment he "turned"; rather, I think Arthas always had a lot of insecurity and that festered within him over time. From his insecurity around Varian to his fears about how his people would see him; his insecurity with Jaina and Kael'thas and then his readiness to become a Husband/Father/King; his insecurity around his worthiness to wield the Light and his insecurity in the strength of the Light itself.

    All of these points lead to one decision or another that lead to his isolation, quest for power and desire for vengeance. One might even argue that his genuine affection for the Scourge as his "family that could never leave or betray him" was a symptom of that insecurity. This, I think, is a recurring theme in Warcraft about darkness not being created in one moment, but rather, it is borne from a darkness already within someone that is never resolved.

    This was best highlighted by the MoP/Sha storylines but Illidan, Gul'dan (mostly AU, though MU has been retconned to match now), Garrosh, Deathwing and almost any story-line where corruption is involved uses this theme. Whilst heroes are forged out of facing their insecurities, weaknesses and problems: Varian/Lo'gosh and Thrall/Go'el come to mind as characters that (literally) reconciled with themselves and became more stable for it.
    I doubt that. Insecurities, if there are any, weren't the reasion why he turned.

    He turned because of his almost religious zeal to finish of the scourge and save his kingdom from its plague. That is the sole reasion why he went to borderline extremes. I thought the culling of stratholme and the ordeal of burning the ships in northrend underlined that.

    And i wonder how many people of this board played wc3 when it was actually a thing.

    It was pretty clear, that Arthas went into madness because he sacraficed everything for the greater good. Personal sacrafices do not matter much, if you were able safe most of your people and kingdom.

    But ultimately arthas got turned by frostmourne when he lost his last parts of humanity, he stopped to care about the living and became the enemy he thought against.

    As i said, killing mercenaries that helped him to burn the ships for a greater good to finish off the scourge in northrend was the 1st true evil act he did, while he was still not under the full influence of the LK and still a paladin.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    He turned because of his almost religious zeal to finish of the scourge and save his kingdom from its plague.
    It's the first time in the past 15 years that I read "religious zeal" and Arthas on the same sentence. Arthas was no zealot, all he had done in his entire life was based on pride, arrogance and vengeance.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    It's the first time in the past 15 years that I read "religious zeal" and Arthas on the same sentence. Arthas was no zealot, all he had done in his entire life was based on pride, arrogance and vengeance.
    No?

    1. he was a paladin?

    2. he was on a crusade to stop the scourge and did sacrafice everything for it?

    if thats not some kind of religious zeal, what is it?

    no it is not vengeance and arrogance and certainly not pride, he might became all of this in wotlk as the LK, but i speak about the arthas when he was still a paladin. Not too much room for arrogance and pride if you have proven nothing at all and you are not an allpowerful entity.

    That said Arthas in wotlk and the Arthas in RoC are both very different characters, you might got your views from wotlk, i started with wc3.

    He started as a spoiled kid, but became the only one who stood agains the scourge - this was made pretty clear in stratholme when uther and jaina abaddoned him and did nothing at all to stop the scourge.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It wasn't for the greater good. It was for Arthas' ego and personal vendetta. They were ordered to return, Arthas made them deserters.


    The culling of Stratholme disagrees with that. While there were rp elements during the WC3 campaign dialoge that support that it was his ego/vendetta, i doubt, that this would really motivate him to do such borderline extremes in the long run, that would be to easy and simply not very believeable. We saw his real motivation in Stratholme. He wanted to be the one who saves the Kingdom that he will once rule as a King as he is the direct crownprince and heir to it. He felt responsible and he did not want to fail at any cost, so he did sacrafice everything for this goal.

    In addition and thats very important - he probably thought he is the ONLY one, who could stop the scourge since Jaina and Uther abaddoned him in Stratholme and his father ordered his soldiers back once in Northrend.

    This is far more motivation than just ego and personal vendetta as those are just optional things that i would not base all his actions on if any, while protecting his own kingdom and people from a geater evil is and was always his prime motivation on everything he ever did before he was turned fully by frostmourne/LK, because he felt extremely responsible as the crown prince.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2017-07-06 at 05:59 PM.

  17. #137
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    zeal =/= religious zeal

  18. #138
    Death Knight Arthas isn't Arthas. Arthas was and always has been good and it even shown through every so often, unlike anyone else afflicted by Death magic. Sylvanas even mentioned at one point that she noticed he was showing sorrow for what he was doing.

    And this weird misconception that Arthas had some evil tendencies already, is headcanon and they need to go read the Arthas book. Dude was a genuine good person with flaws like any of us. But when it came down to it, he made the tough choices we all know we'd make in the same situation. He's the most relatable character in Warcraft.

    Arthas, Good guy who did what needed to be done, but still fell into the Lich King's trap(get it, trap, not temptation)
    DK Arthas, the evil persona created by Frostmourne. Still had doubts and regret, still felt shame for what he was doing.
    LK Arthas, the evil persona enhanced by the Helm of Dominion, clearly still active in Bolvar. No shame or regret, no Arthas, not even the cocky loveable DK Arthas.

  19. #139
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyux View Post
    Most people would say that Arthas' turning point was the Culling of Stratholme. I disagree. I think that it was a difficult decision, possibly made easier by a desire for vengeance, but rational nonetheless. I realise that others may disagree with me about Stratholme, but bear with me and argue in the alternative. If not the Culling, then when exactly did Arthas cross the line? I think taking up Frostmourne is a clear turning point but from that point he could be considered under the influence of the Lich King and so I do not think it is fair to completely attribute his actions to him.

    My next best guess is when he burnt his ships and back-stabbed the mercenaries and soldiers in Northrend. If this is the point in time, then why exactly? I don't think that a desire for vengeance is well supported and doesn't fit well with his character. I find it hard to believe a prince who is also a paladin would be overcome by vengeance so easily. I would believe it if he was influence by, say, an Old God or Sha.

    So, when exactly do you think Arthas cross the line (if not Stratholme or taking Frostmourne) and do you think he was under some extra influence at that point?
    I agree with you, that it is not stratholme. I do believe it is the point when he goes to northrend and as muradin says "you betrayed the mercenaries who fought for you, whats happening to you Arthas?" Not the actual going to northrend but the actions he took to get the mercenaries stranded there with him.

    Its like a jedi becoming sith. Bit by bit, the actions he took took him away from self sacrifice and patience to "every action is a means to an end" and "vengeance".

    And when he took hold of frostmourne it was over. Not because he was evil or becoming it. But the state he was in, he had nothing left to contend with the lich king and remember his code.

    to me multiple times his story rings close to that of anakin skywalker becoming vader
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  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    And this weird misconception that Arthas had some evil tendencies already, is headcanon and they need to go read the Arthas book. Dude was a genuine good person with flaws like any of us. But when it came down to it, he made the tough choices we all know we'd make in the same situation. He's the most relatable character in Warcraft.
    Hardly headcanon when Blizzard themselves flat out called him an evil paladin, though, even putting "before picking up Frostmourne" to make it clear. What he thought doesn't really matter much since we are judging him from our (as in, real world standard) perspective, not his (or it'd end up with all the moral relativism long discussions). Hitler thought he was doing what he did for the greater good as well - didn't make him less evil in our eyes.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2017-07-06 at 06:01 PM.
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