Havoc and Our Terrible Ceave

[Killface1]

Use fel barrage obviously, it's better now. If you don't have the t20 2pc you can use the bracers and bloodlet, they're still good. Not viable if you have the t20 2pc though, but the 2pc does makes your aoe stronger since blade dance crits almost everytime. On top of that there's still foti, and beam. Make sure you use chaos nova as much as possible to get soul fragmets and lower eye beam's cooldown.

Our cleave is still good, just not the strongest...

Good relative to what? Enemy health? Other classes and specs?

Because if you claim its good relative to enemy health, I'd argue thats a meaningless statement, since killing 3 enemies in 8 seconds might seem really slow to some people. And you're quantifiably wrong if you claim that our cleave is good compared to other specs.

It's been pointed out in pretty much every "havoc is awful" thread, but some how people keep saying were fine, so I'll try to explain it in a different way because some people still dont get the point.

Compared to other specs, we are bad at most things. This is a fact. Our single target is bad save on extremely short fights (mythic goroth I guess), and there are other directly comparable classes and specs that perform better even on short fights that fill the exact same roll. There is absolutely no reason to bring a demon hunter instead of a rogue for damage or soaks.

Compared to other classes, we are particularly bad at cleave an AoE.

Lets say a demon hunter is playing suboptimal talents and specs for aoe. They're not taking momentum, they're not playing fel barrage, etc. They land in the 50% bracket. Your gut response is to say "well its their fault, they weren't playing correctly" but that isn't the correct view point. The correct viewpoint is to say "what are the warlocks out there that are also not playing correctly and parsing in the 50% range doing in damage? The mages? Rogues? Druids? You dont get to compare a 50% parsing skill level demon hunter to a 90% parsing balance druid.

And if you look at the 50% parsing demon hunter, they're getting absolutely shit on by the other 50% parsing classes and specs.

So you say "well its a talent problem, you could be doing more damage if you just played correctly" but thats not fair either, because so can they. So lets take a look at the top 99% logs - its safe to say that not only is everybody picking good talents, they're minmaxing them well, and had some luck thrown in generally.

And demon hunters are *still* getting shit on. So the point that people are trying to make is that it doesn't matter what performance level you're playing at, compared to a player of similar skill playing pretty much any other class or spec, demon hunters will get shit on.

A mediocre player playing a demon hunter vs a mediocre player playing a rogue, the rogue will destroy the DH. A great player playing a demon hunter vs a great player playing a rogue, the demon hunter will get shit on. And this disparity is particularly large in both longer fights, and in fights with significant amounts of cleave and AoE.

Take a look at Hjartan logs.

Heres the 75%: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2036
and heres the 99%: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...036&dataset=99

We moved up from the very worst spec, to the second worse, over a spec that nobody plays because their other specs are two of the best in the game when we move from 75% to 99%.

There is only 1-2 public logs available of mythic mistress, so I'll link heroic which is a similar level of cleave, which is pretty similar in fight style as mythic.

75% https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...7&difficulty=4
99% https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...y=4&dataset=99

The point people keep making is that it doesn't matter whether you're playing the most perfectly optimal way or if you're playing a mediocre set of talents, you're going to get destroyed by other people playing at a similar skill level.

We are *extremely* bad at aoe and cleave. This is an objective fact. We have high pull burst DPS, but as fights last longer than 30-40 seconds, we start falling down the meters quickly in single target situations. We have no specialty that were particularly competitive in. Why bring a demon hunter when a rogue will do more cleave, more single target, more aoe, and do a better job with soaks and mechanics?

And its reflective in top end mythic guild comps, they started gearing demon hunters and then dropped all of them in favor of rogues as they got to harder bosses.

[Resentless]

remember when our blade dance talent in our artifact tree gave us 10% dmg boost / target...glorious days :O

Oh yeah now that was a fun time.

[Kals]

And ? There will always be a "mandatory".

Right now you can play without Ring or Shoulders and still be competitive, with that change it seems likely that if you don't have the new class ring you're going to be miles behind those who do.

Obviously this is all hypothetical on something Blizzard will never do though; just have to accept our cleave will be lacking 'til next patch.

[Sithalos]

Of course your cleave is going to be bad if you're lazy, and refuse to play anything other than FB/CB every fight.

Times change, this isn't NH. Time to accept the fact that Demonic will be used sometimes. They didn't buff Demon's Bite for nothing.

[Deleted]

Of course your cleave is going to be bad if you're lazy, and refuse to play anything other than FB/CB every fight.

Times change, this isn't NH. Time to accept the fact that Demonic will be used sometimes. They didn't buff Demon's Bite for nothing.

The large nerf to Mo'args with bloodlet and T20 pushing us to use FB kinda limit you.

Plus with demons bite, a 46% increase of nothing is still nothing

[Deleted]

While you might have Memebeam available more often with Demonic, its cleave sucks even more, especially on 2-3 Targets.

[Deix-EU]

The best for cleaving efficiently would be momentum / chaos cleave build. I have a build which is not far behind standard ST one.
The proper statement would then be our cleave sucks ballz if you want/have to stay stationary.

Thing is, we lose effectively in ST with such a build on most fights. I can imagine on Mistress it can be very effective however. Other problem is, there is more ST periods in fact. So we can conclude our cleave during short time periods sucks.

[PraisCthulhu]

Use fel barrage obviously, it's better now. If you don't have the t20 2pc you can use the bracers and bloodlet, they're still good. Not viable if you have the t20 2pc though, but the 2pc does makes your aoe stronger since blade dance crits almost everytime. On top of that there's still foti, and beam. Make sure you use chaos nova as much as possible to get soul fragmets and lower eye beam's cooldown.

Our cleave is still good, just not the strongest...

I mean, DH is last on Mistress by a significant margin. It is possible that the build people are using has a lot to do with that, but I don't think any build is going to put us anywhere but last or *maybe* second to last on that fight.

[Killface1]

Of course your cleave is going to be bad if you're lazy, and refuse to play anything other than FB/CB every fight.

Times change, this isn't NH. Time to accept the fact that Demonic will be used sometimes. They didn't buff Demon's Bite for nothing.

I guess maybe people didn't read my long post. It was addressed specifically to you, and others who suggest that we just need to change talents and we'll be good.

TLDR: Some people min max, and change talents to the most optimal, highest dps producing talents on each fight. Other people don't. This holds true across classes and specs. Right now, a mediocre demon hunter will be beaten by a mediocre player of any other class/spec on any cleave and aoe fight, every time. Suppose that demon hunter changes to the optimal talent build and jumps up significantly in the rankings. That demon hunter will not just lose to somebody of equal skill playing any other class/spec, they will frequently lose to somebody who is significantly worse than them playing any other class or spec.

Optimization only takes you so far. When comparing people of similar skill levels, demon hunters are significantly worse at anything involving cleave or AoE *no matter what talents they are playing*

[Deleted]

Our raidlead rerolled from havoc to ret paladin.
And because he knows about the cleave / sein problems,
i'm now allowed to tunnel the Bosses...
So much gameplay!

[Deix-EU]

Our raidlead rerolled from havoc to ret paladin.
And because he knows about the cleave / sein problems,
i'm now allowed to tunnel the Bosses...
So much gameplay!

That's what we are made for and occasional burst AE.

[Lucrece]

That's what we are made for and occasional burst AE.

That's not what we were before they butchered the blade dance artifact trait, bloodlet, moarg's, and fel mastery.

We used to be a really strong aoe and priority burst class with mediocre single target.

Now we're mediocre single target and garbage at everything else.

If anything, eyebeam and rage of the illidari should come down to 30 sec cd's if they're not going to turn blade dance into chaos damage to help our aoe.

[Deix-EU]

That's not what we were before they butchered the blade dance artifact trait, bloodlet, moarg's, and fel mastery.

We used to be a really strong aoe and priority burst class with mediocre single target.

Now we're mediocre single target and garbage at everything else.

If anything, eyebeam and rage of the illidari should come down to 30 sec cd's if they're not going to turn blade dance into chaos damage to help our aoe.

Sure but essentially our tools (nemesis, fb, T20, etc.) are making us ST kill machine in theory. However we're indeed not the best even in this category.

[InkarnateKT]

There is only 1-2 public logs available of mythic mistress, so I'll link heroic which is a similar level of cleave, which is pretty similar in fight style as mythic.

75% https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...7&difficulty=4
99% https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...y=4&dataset=99

Mythic Mistress would never be a good test because you have to stop AoE at times. You also will have to pop cooldowns at an assigned time for your guild with up to a 100% damage buff. So never use that fight for benchmarking anything. Mythic Maiden as well is useless for comparing ST damage due to assignments and buff rng.

And its reflective in top end mythic guild comps, they started gearing demon hunters and then dropped all of them in favor of rogues as they got to harder bosses.

DHs being dropped has everything to do with boss mechanics and not damage, though a little buff wouldn't hurt.

[aGit]

well, we just did a good 3hours worth of desolate host mythic progression and let me tell you, it's fucking depressing playing DH on that fight. Cleave, aoe, target switching, the whole damned 9 yards of shit mechanics that havoc is awful at. Sure would be nice to have a certain pair of legendary bracers that were not nuked from the orbit around. and a tier set that didn't force us to first blood.

I don't need the class to be god like on all the things, i just wish i wasn't a liability for my raid team on certain encounters. this is too much. a true one trick pony who can only single target and burst aoe/cleave once every minute.