[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Deleted]

Liadrins generally sims higher than highlord because it has both a better stat budget and a better stat spread highlord has a lower than normal stat budget for its item level.

Also JV is not affected by our talents and traits so on a nonstunned target I think TV is pretty much the same damage.

[Deleted]

I don't know, as far as feelcraft is concerned, I had Liadrin's for the longest time until I got a cloak and when I switched them I definitely felt it during Crusade.

That was exactly what i was saying a few pages ago. I got cloak as my 8th or so leggo so i used ring (got it 2nd) for a veeeeeery long time. I got used to the playstyle and when i switched it felt.. meh.

I'm using ring as well now cuz of the cloak set piece (925) which completes my 4 set piece from ToS. As i said i wanna try Highlord and see how cloak sims once i get any good WF/TF tier piece.

[Redblade]

What I found is this. Liandrin's is better for pure ST and Souls is better for cleave but it's within a ~5-10k margin so it's not the end of the world either way. This is with 924 equipped 4 set T20 and 2 set T19 and belt equipped.

I'll play around a bit with Souls to see if practice meets theory or not, hopefully it does as DP plays better imo.

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Sims only go so far and only represent median/average, so unless they set parameters for situational cases, they don't exist in the sims. I don't think the sim for chain+soul is accurate, either, because they're not using JV, and it's extremely difficult to set the parameters for its optimal use beyond simply using JV instead of TV if you have a DP proc.

With my gear JV does less damage than TV...

[Leefa]

With my gear JV does less damage than TV...

Plus Echo of the Highlord doesnt proc off JV. The only point in using JV would be during Crusade to stack it up faster if you get a DP proc while using the Highlord ring or if you're attacking a stunned target.

[Wutangrza]

I'm a huge fan of belt souls btw. For me it sims 1% below liadrin's (which is also close to cloak), but in practice you lose a few HP that Liadrin's generates, and there's no way to "waste" a DP proc. Being able to heal yourself and stack Crusade faster with JV in a pinch is great too.

[Tonyman64]

What do people think of AMR's machine learning approach to optimizing gearing?

[Reith]

With my gear JV does less damage than TV...

What's your point? You know JV is worth 5HP, right? Use your head.

[Redblade]

What's your point? You know JV is worth 5HP, right? Use your head.

My point is that ability A deals more damage than ability B for the same cost of a global. The only time you would use JV over TV is to stack up crusade stacks and even then it's questionable as you'd be better off using Eye for an Eye in most situations.

[Zoopercat]

@Tonyman64 - I'm from Ask Mr. Robot and can answer any questions you might have.

For Machine Learning - this post illustrates why it's important to move beyond stat weights: http://forums.askmrrobot.com/t/stat-...and-graphs/995

Basically - stat weights can't balance your stats or take ratios into account. And they are always changing based on the gear you have equipped and even what you have available to you. Our machine learning approach handles all of these things and ranks gear accordingly.

[Reith]

My point is that ability A deals more damage than ability B for the same cost of a global. The only time you would use JV over TV is to stack up crusade stacks and even then it's questionable as you'd be better off using Eye for an Eye in most situations.

I won't stop you from playing badly, seeing as that seems to be your wish. A closed mind will not improve.

[Redblade]

I won't stop you from playing badly, seeing as that seems to be your wish. A closed mind will not improve.

What the fuck are you on about? If you are so awesome share your wisdom here so we can be just as good as you are...

[Deleted]

I think he is just trying to tell you that with a DP proc queued in advance plus another 5 HP and a lucky DP proc you could ramp up crusade to 15 in 3 globals.

Worth it? Perhaps. If you can get it up in 3 globals i can see there beeing benefits. But i dunno without trying and seeing how it goes.


Anyways this isnt what i came here to say. :P

I made alot of tests and sims with legendaries now that i got the 4 set t20. I got an 880 arcano crystal, keep this in mind.

Liadrin's ended up coming ahead for 10k dps in ST in comparsion to Highlord in almost all gear combinations i was testing (Belt always came up as the best other legendary. Cape wasnt simming any better even at 30% haste). But, from the tests i have been making, Highlords value increases if theres more than one target to hit. So, i still believe that at least for me highlord is the best choice. Way stronger AoE/cleave, 10k behind in ST.

Also worth noting that Zeal became the best choice for me without the t19 4x set (not a huge difference or anything). Though i will still take fires when running DH.

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@Tonyman64 - I'm from Ask Mr. Robot and can answer any questions you might have.

For Machine Learning - this post illustrates why it's important to move beyond stat weights: http://forums.askmrrobot.com/t/stat-...and-graphs/995

Basically - stat weights can't balance your stats or take ratios into account. And they are always changing based on the gear you have equipped and even what you have available to you. Our machine learning approach handles all of these things and ranks gear accordingly.

That sounds about right.

I know Blizzard isn't listening, but i hate the current gearing system. The stats fluctuate so much you have a bag full of gear and countless sims to make to find out what is good. This isn't choice and it isn't fun. It's only complication.

[Redblade]

I think he is just trying to tell you that with a DP proc queued in advance plus another 5 HP and a lucky DP proc you could ramp up crusade to 15 in 3 globals.

Worth it? Perhaps. If you can get it up in 3 globals i can see there beeing benefits. But i dunno without trying and seeing how it goes.

Well as the opener would be Bow-J-Crusade-FV-Wake-FV-AT-FV which puts you at 9 and to pick a talent in the hoped of making the last 6 stack up in a global or two less isn't very efficient which I kinda said already with my Eye for an Eye comment. So I'm still curious what he thinks he has to teach us here...not that I think a player that doesn't believe in sims and hasn't stepped in to mythic will be able to teach us much.

Liadrin's ended up coming ahead for 10k dps in ST in comparsion to Highlord in almost all gear combinations i was testing (Belt always came up as the best other legendary. Cape wasnt simming any better even at 30% haste). But, from the tests i have been making, Highlords value increases if theres more than one target to hit. So, i still believe that at least for me highlord is the best choice. Way stronger AoE/cleave, 10k behind in ST.

Same as me then, both are within 5-10k margin of each other though comparing ST/Cleave so unless you're min/maxing either is fine. And I got 31.5% haste in current gear. Cape only becomes the better combo with Souls in full mythic gear as far as I know, for me it sims lower than belt currently at least. (Edit: I'm using 2+4 set though which influences this, I need mythic pieces that beats T19 2set before cape ever becomes an option.)

I know Blizzard isn't listening, but i hate the current gearing system. The stats fluctuate so much you have a bag full of gear and countless sims to make to find out what is good. This isn't choice and it isn't fun. It's only complication.

To be fair it's pretty straight forward on most pieces. I-level is king unless the items has mastery, crit/vers is generally worth more than str. I had very few sims where this doesn't hold true.

[Tonyman64]

That sounds about right.

I know Blizzard isn't listening, but i hate the current gearing system. The stats fluctuate so much you have a bag full of gear and countless sims to make to find out what is good. This isn't choice and it isn't fun. It's only complication.

I kind of like the current gearing system. I think Blizzard has done a much better job of keeping the values of stats close to eachother. For players that aren't checking stat weights or that find them once and never update them, it means they're less suboptimal than they were in the past. There's still an advantage to simming of course, but more casual players can equip a higher ilvl piece of gear and it's much more likely now than in the past that it's actually an upgrade.

On the machine learning side of things, I like it because it's a better approach to optimization and because maybe it can get us started moving past the idea of caps on various stats and relatively fixed stat priorities. I know earlier in the expansion, in this very thread, the soft cap for haste was discussed every couple of pages and mastery was dismissed as a total junk stat.

[Redblade]

Liadrin's is quite more effective at helping you do more damage during Crusade though, with far less RNG

Depends how you look at it to be fair. For me both options sims within what we could call margin of error. Looking at Liandrin's though it's actually dependent on kill time which means that in a fight that's 4:30 for example it's going to be much better than in a fight that's 6:00. Souls on the other hand, while being RNG based, it's not as dependent on what time you kill the boss at. Sure there will be some variance but not by a huge margin.

This is another reason I'm leaning towards belt + souls as it smooths out the dependence on crusade and good kill times to some extent.

[Deleted]

I kind of like the current gearing system. I think Blizzard has done a much better job of keeping the values of stats close to eachother. For players that aren't checking stat weights or that find them once and never update them, it means they're less suboptimal than they were in the past. There's still an advantage to simming of course, but more casual players can equip a higher ilvl piece of gear and it's much more likely now than in the past that it's actually an upgrade.

On the machine learning side of things, I like it because it's a better approach to optimization and because maybe it can get us started moving past the idea of caps on various stats and relatively fixed stat priorities. I know earlier in the expansion, in this very thread, the soft cap for haste was discussed every couple of pages and mastery was dismissed as a total junk stat.

Thing is, that would only work if the classes were balanced.

As a Ret atm, if you aren't maximizing you are holding back your raid.

Also, its not that simple. ilvl doesn't tell us everything. Strength is worth less to us than crit, versatility and haste depending on the levels. Mastery is absolute trash and there is alot of it around. I really disagree. It's not that everyone can get whatever and be ok, it's a mine field and its full of traps. If you don't get what is good you are gonna be terrible.

Maybe if the classes were truly balanced that could be the case. Maybe if they increased the value of mastery that could be true. But, right now, i don't think it is.

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Liadrin's is quite more effective at helping you do more damage during Crusade though, with far less RNG

Liandrins effect is quite honestly, mostly irrelevant (it isn't but its not insane by any stretch). Its the extra secondary stats that are making it slightly better. Crit and haste are great for us and are there the whole time.

The HP from liadrins, it is quite possible for you to have wasted HP, will depend on your BoW procs and wake of ashes use. With DP, that never happens. Everything gets used up efficiently and it will help your damage during downtime aswell.

Not only that, Liadrin's is only the best on ST fights. If you have stuff to cleave or hectic cleave it falls direly behind Highlord. Purely ST fights in ToS are just goroth and maiden ( i believe. I havent looked them all up in mythic yet).

[Tonyman64]

Thing is, that would only work if the classes were balanced.

As a Ret atm, if you aren't maximizing you are holding back your raid.

Also, its not that simple. ilvl doesn't tell us everything. Strength is worth less to us than crit, versatility and haste depending on the levels. Mastery is absolute trash and there is alot of it around. I really disagree. It's not that everyone can get whatever and be ok, it's a mine field and its full of traps. If you don't get what is good you are gonna be terrible.

Maybe if the classes were truly balanced that could be the case. Maybe if they increased the value of mastery that could be true. But, right now, i don't think it is.

I know ilvl isn't everything, but it's a better indicator than it has been at many points in the past and that's good for more casual players. I'm not saying it's perfectly balanced, but the secondaries are much better balanced than they were in the past. Also, if I recall correctly, a greater judgement build can be pretty close to builds that don't use mastery. I don't think sims really support what you are saying, mastery is certainly worse than our other secondaries, but not to the extent that you seem to think.

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Let's be honest now. As a Ret atm, if you are not switching to another class (unless you can heal or maybe tank), you are holding back your raid.

We're about 12% below sub rogues from what I can tell. For most people playing, variation in skill is much more important. Obviously for highly competitive guilds that matters, but the idea that we're trash is kind of extreme.

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=Nymrohd;46422535]Let's be honest now. As a Ret atm, if you are not switching to another class (unless you can heal or maybe tank), you are holding back your raid.[/Q

Hey blessing of wisdom is a valid reason to bring us to raids

[Tonyman64]

An added note, Method and Exorsus are both running a Ret for Mythic KJ.

[Deleted]

The point is the gear options are much much more. MrRobot's system linked up there explains : for a certain ilvl budget there is an estimation of secondaries in total. ie for a set of gear with 910 ilvl someone would expect to have lets say 10k in secondaries. MrRobot analyses what would the best distribution be for secondaries for that specific toon with that specific ilvl (and talents//leggos) and for that type of encounter.
Unfortunately with dungeon gear being always relevant and wf/tf gear coming up with weird loot options it is absolutely impossible to make a pick out of 1million gear combos since the possible options would be closer to 1 gazillion.
Actually this provides everyone with the answer why noone has bothered to do some serious theorycrafting (at least for retribution) this expansion and people rely on feelcraft/high end pve experience to make questions and then just provide the simcraft reports.
So my feelings about this new system : I dont really care since retribution is clearly underperforming and receives constant nerfs . The difference with previous expansions is so annoying that i really got to sim my toon 5 times per week just to make sure i am not doing something terribly wrong only to come back as "so it is not me not gearing properly, its just bliz devs giving me the finger" and this is annoying. Ofc my reaction is to blame the mailman (aka rngeesus drops) and the loot system although this is not the case.