8.0: The UnaVOIDable future

[Deleted]

I'm keen for northrend 2.0

[Zulkhan]

"Objective" requires a certain quality of proof. That is, just in case you missed it, something better than "because I say so".

I mean, it's not difficult. Just track forum discussions back to Cataclysm days. Vash'jir was a clearly unique zone going on a route that was appreciated by some, got others puzzled or was outright despised by another substantial chunk of people. It was a strongly polarizing zone like few others and engendered plenty of discussions around it.

[Deleted]

So, let me get this straight, you're going to try to call me for making an objective call for "controversy" which is measurable

Something being measurable means very little. Someone who uses words like "objective" in any manner other than trying to appear wise while just babbling random stuff would proceed to make sure that the measure of given quality is usable and agreed upon by sufficient number of interested people, than proceed to measure it with proper use of scientific tools (including filtering for relevance and even more importantly - control groups) and then submit well-documented and traceable measure for peer review. Funny enough, such procedure is actually doable on MMOC to a curiously complete degree.

, but have no problem with supposedly objective judgments on beauty?

You use some words with tradition of meaning in a manner which happens to serve your agenda at the given moment, I do the exact same thing. PЯOBLEM?

I think this goes beyond needing to learn to read.

If you feel a burning need to make a confession and ask for absolution, I'm here for you.

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I mean, it's not difficult. Just track forum discussions back to Cataclysm days. Vash'jir was a clearly unique zone going on a route that was appreciated by some, got others puzzled or was outright despised by another substantial chunk of people. It was a strongly polarizing zone like few others and engendered plenty of discussions around it.

Myself I was only talking about the visuals. 3D aspect of gameplay confused the living fvck out of me as well. To say something objectively about just how controversial it really was, an epic amount of legwork would be required.

[Zulkhan]

Myself I was only talking about the visuals. 3D aspect of gameplay confused the living fvck out of me as well. To say something objectively about just how controversial it really was, an epic amount of legwork would be required.

The controversy involved every aspect of the zone because everything about it was rather unique or weird, depending from which angle of appreciation you looked at it. Never before we dealt with a zone underwater and that affected both the visual and gameplay aspects. Again, there's pretty much nothing that I liked of Vash'jr and in my memory remained as nothing but a failed experiment. Of course you're free to disagree on that regard. That's not objectively true. However, the fact that the zone was unique and raised a ruckus of heated discussions as a consequence is pretty much a fact. That's what made it a "controversial" zone.

Of course it would be rather silly to say it was "controversial" due to visuals alone as a zone is never judged by its prettieness only. On the other hand, there's no doubt that even from a visual standpoint Vash'jir wasn't everyone's cup of tea. Sure as hell it wasn't for me, not in the slightest.

[Wildberry]

Something being measurable means very little. Someone who uses words like "objective" in any manner other than trying to appear wise while just babbling random stuff would proceed to make sure that the measure of given quality is usable and agreed upon by sufficient number of interested people, than proceed to measure it with proper use of scientific tools (including filtering for relevance and even more importantly - control groups) and then submit well-documented and traceable measure for peer review. Funny enough, such procedure is actually doable on MMOC to a curiously complete degree.

Actually, the ability to measure something largely removes it from the realm of subjectivity. But hey, my initial statement was: "You mean the zone that's objectively the most controversial in the game?" You can knock that statement down easily should you provide a zone that generated more controversy. Should be simple enough, right?

You use some words with tradition of meaning in a manner which happens to serve your agenda at the given moment, I do the exact same thing. PЯOBLEM?

Oh, so that's the card you're pulling now? Wonderful. I'm reminded of a certain MSPaint comic featuring stick figures, with the final slide reading "I was only pretending to be..."

If you feel a burning need to make a confession and ask for absolution, I'm here for you.

I confess that I have a few infractions against my account. I'll also confess that I'd like to keep posting in the 8.0 threads, despite my distaste for its apparent focus. Due to this, I'd really rather not earn myself another infraction. Please, connect the dots so I don't have to.

[Deleted]

Actually, the ability to measure something largely removes it from the realm of subjectivity. But hey, my initial statement was: "You mean the zone that's objectively the most controversial in the game?" You can knock that statement down easily should you provide a zone that generated more controversy. Should be simple enough, right?

Thesis of Vash'jir being "objectively the most controversial" is yours, so is the burden of proof. I like the precision with which you follow the eristics handbook (fiirst, misuse a word with specific, if not broadely understood, meaning, then try to shift the burden of proof for your thesis on someone else, what next?). Too bad none of it works without the audience being sufficiently gullible.

[Wildberry]

Thesis of Vash'jir being "objectively the most controversial" is yours, so is the burden of proof. I like the precision with which you follow the eristics handbook (fiirst, misuse a word with specific, if not broadely understood, meaning, then try to shift the burden of proof for your thesis on someone else, what next?). Too bad none of it works without the audience being sufficiently gullible.

You know, it's funny you accuse me of that, considering you've been ripping from old Schop's "The Art of Winning an Argument." But hey, I'll forgive the projection.

Please point to where I misused any word in this discussion.

With regard to proof, would you not agree that once something enters the realm of common knowledge, proof becomes redundant? Regardless, given the metrics you outlined above, I have no polls that would meet those oh-so-rigorous standards. Vashj'ir's controversy relevant to the controversy of other zones is up for debate. Surely, you can cite a zone that's caused even comparable controversy to Vashj'ir? Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you were unable to do something like that, wouldn't you just be validating my statement?

[Deleted]

You know, it's funny you accuse me of that, considering you've been ripping from old Schop's "The Art of Winning an Argument." But hey, I'll forgive the projection.

Glad to see we meant the same handbook. Whenever you feel like doing something else, give me a shout.

Please point to where I misused any word in this discussion.

I already have, doing so again would be redundant.

With regard to proof, would you not agree that once something enters the realm of common knowledge, proof becomes redundant?

I wouldn't. The only reason science ever progresses is precisely the fact everything gets tested again and again. Common knowledge includes homeopathy (you can buy homeopathic syrup for cough in a pharmacy these days), it used to include the obvious terrible impact of bathing on health and other things which I'm very happy to say were challenged again and again despite redundancy of the proof.

Regardless, given the metrics you outlined above, I have no polls that would meet those oh-so-rigorous standards.

"objective" was the word. I am ever so very very sorry about objectivity requiring oh-so-rigorous standards!

Vashj'ir's controversy relevant to the controversy of other zones is up for debate. Surely, you can cite a zone that's caused even comparable controversy to Vashj'ir?

Thankfully, I don't have to. I didn't abuse the word "objective" to push my personal opinion on a piece of art (? entertainment?), so I'm quite OK here.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you were unable to do something like that, wouldn't you just be validating my statement?

Again, due to how in an actual discussion the onus of proof work, I would not.

[Wildberry]

Thankfully, I don't have to. I didn't abuse the word "objective" to push my personal opinion on a piece of art (? entertainment?), so I'm quite OK here.

Oh, I used the word "objective" to push my personal opinion? Where? My own distaste for Vashj'ir is entirely irrelevant to the observable controversy it created. Are you going to deny that such controversy existed? Do you feel I'm overstating it? Is there any zone with comparable controversy?

Are you actually going to stake a position and make an argument, or have you plunged this discussion into the realm of senseless sophistry?

[TheHodedOne]

Jaina is going to be the final boss in the first tier of 8.1
Azshara final boss of 8.2
N´zoth of 8.3

[raz98]

I still want Azshara as a dungeon boss It probably wont happen, but I want it to. I want to melt her face for the promise of pants that I will inevitably disenchant in favor of better dungeon pants. Naga fans can shove their waifu into a fishtank for all I care, but I would rather have someone interesting as a focus.

[Deleted]

I'm hoping for an expansion where Azshara gets the focus she deserves. Personally I think the perfect scenario would be Azshara as the face of the expansion and main threat during launch content, much like Suramar. I really do hope they'll make Nazjatar a beautiful and interesting underwater zone while still being comfortable to play in, which I am confident they can pull off now.
In all honesty I just wanna see Azshara, I think she's one of the most interesting (if not THE most interesting) lore character in the game. Say what you want about her, but truth remains that she's the catalyst to more or less everything that's happened in the wow lore (excluding the lich king that is). She lead the burning legion to us, sundered the world etc. She's an extremely important character and while I'm afraid she might not be the face of the expansion because blizzard is aware of how outspoken and prominent the masculine part of their community is, she's definitely going to be a main threat and get her own raid.

Aaaand I just wanna point out that I'm tired of people downplaying and hating on Azshara because she doesn't fit their traditional "masculine" and brutal super villain ideals. And in my opinion that's exactly why she's so interesting. She's not corrupted, she was the mastermind behind everything. She's not powerless, according to the lore she's probably among the universe's most powerful known beings (which neither Illidan or the lich king would be lmao). To top that, her agenda is NOTHING like any other villains we've seen. She strived for perfection, and her attitude is also so unlike other characters. She sees herself as above player and lore characters, but in a confidence unlike let's say Gul'dan etc. Azshara isn't the type to crush someone just because she could, she's the type to let them live because she simply don't care about their trivial life. Like hate on azshara all you want, but don't deny her canon power or importance in the warcraft universe. You don't have to like any of the lore surrounding her but we're gonna get her in the game at some point or another, hopefully it's 8.0 because her expansion is long overdue.

[Deleted]

I'm hoping for an expansion where Azshara gets the focus she deserves. Personally I think the perfect scenario would be Azshara as the face of the expansion (because we've had no female character on box art) and main threat during launch content, much like Suramar. I really do hope they'll make Nazjatar a beautiful and interesting underwater zone while still being comfortable to play in, which I am confident they can pull off now.
In all honesty I just wanna see Azshara, I think she's one of the most interesting (if not THE most interesting) lore character in the game. Say what you want about her, but truth remains that she's the catalyst to more or less everything that's happened in the wow lore (excluding the lich king that is). She lead the burning legion to us, sundered the world etc. She's an extremely important character and while I'm afraid she might not be the face of the expansion because blizzard is aware of how outspoken and prominent the masculine part of their community is, she's definitely going to be a main threat and get her own raid.

Aaaand I just wanna point out that I'm tired of people downplaying and hating on Azshara because she doesn't fit their traditional "masculine" and brutal super villain ideals. And in my opinion that's exactly why she's so interesting. She's not corrupted, she was the mastermind behind everything. She's not powerless, according to the lore she's probably among the universe's most powerful known beings (which neither Illidan or the lich king would be lmao). To top that, her agenda is NOTHING like any other villains we've seen. She strived for perfection, and her attitude is also so unlike other characters. She sees herself as above player and lore characters, but in a confidence unlike let's say Gul'dan etc. Azshara isn't the type to crush someone just because she could, she's the type to let them live because she simply don't care about their trivial life. Like hate on azshara all you want, but don't deny her canon power or importance in the warcraft universe. You don't have to like any of the lore surrounding her but we're gonna get her in the game at some point or another, hopefully it's 8.0 because her expansion is long overdue.

[Nyel]

I'm hoping for an expansion where Azshara gets the focus she deserves. Personally I think the perfect scenario would be Azshara as the face of the expansion (because we've had no female character on box art) and main threat during launch content, much like Suramar.

You're right, Azshara needs to be the "poster girl" for the expansion. Anything else would be pretty disappointing. You can't just treat her like your usual 2nd boss in the introductory raid of the expansion.

[Mythabay]

Well, the time travelling was due to rogue bronze dragons. The dragons rescued Garrosh from the Temple of the White Tiger. He and they then turned back the time of Draenor using the Dark Portal.

[Eazy]

Just going to copy and paste something from a different thread. Void/Azshara are memes

Wrath of the Lich King 2

-Kel'thuzad's phylactery is still missing
-Bolvar is conscious and doing less-than-savory things
-Deaths of Chromie scenario confirms that the dead are marching once again
-Wrathion is in Northrend for some reason or another in Deaths of Chromie
-Wrathion was last seen in Draenor, his biggest moment there was in Taylor's garrison warning about Ephial
-Ephial was a necromancer that somehow slipped into the Alliance's forces
-AU Draenor was of interest to the Ebon Blade. Mograine specifically mentioned a plan to unlock the secrets of the Frozen Throne with some of Ner'zhul's writings
-If Bolvar is/was conscious, the Ebon Blade was active within the citadel (which Mograine's quest text suggests), etc. it's entirely possible that he could have sent his own agents to AU Draenor for his own purposes
-Mograine the last dissident in the Ebon Blade is now enthralled by the Lich King
-Half of the Scourge has seen a model update
-Sylvanas' Helya/Lantern plot failed, she'll need an alternative
-Odyn expressed a desire to return to Ulduar

Oh and finally: Mal'ganis is still MIA. Just watch, given the torture of Varimathras, and absolute collapse of the Legion we'll see the remaining Dreadlords go their own way. Given Mal'ganis' history with the Scourge, his route will be obvious. He's going to be our segue character a la Gul'dan.

I didn't see this thread before, but this one looks more promising than Kul Tiras expansion/Wrath of Azshara/Whatever.