CoEN is such a bad design and untested

[Deleted]

I avoid any mythic+ in this place, even something like a +4 >.<

[Charge me Doctor]

I guess they overestimated their player base.

Yep. Running M+ CoEN level 12 as 5 man group was not hard at all. Running same M+ CoEN level 11 as 4 man group + one random DPS - burned out the key due to random DPS falling over 9 times to avoidable shit.

[Sindelpt]

We had a CoEN +20 run a few weeks ago (sanguine, volcanic and fortified) and 1st boss was a 1 shot. 2nd boss, however, bugged after we wiped, 1 book was alive with the boss and the door remained closed, there was no way to get in. So we had to reset the key and go with it depleted.
It took our group about 96min to finish the dgn. About the balancing and comparison with other "easy" (heh!) dungeons, it is (was? didn't do last week...) overtuned.

The overtuning was much more visible in, say, a +14/+15, those felt like +19... Given that the new key you get from upgrade is random, it doesn't make much sense. In our guild group, we ended up with Kara (L & U) and CoEN keys on 4 out of 5 players

[shaunika123]

I guess they overestimated their player base. Kara was a step up from the launch mythics. Then 7.2 raised the launch mythics up to Kara-ish level and they gave us one tougher in CoEN, but the average Tom, Dick, and Larry couldn't handle it. Or worse. Just yesterday wiped like 5x on Smashspite. I'm the tank and I'm the only one left alive each time. And my entire group confesses it was their first time in the dungeon and they hadn't even read the dungeon journal. But it's "just a reg mythic" so obviously you can just wing everything and one shot the place, amirite?

it's not really about being able to handle it, it's about feeling like shit when you get a COEN key, because it's way worse than the others, and you'll just end up doing a different key 9/10 times, so what's the point of keeping it harder than the others? nobody really wins with it
it's not like it gives better loot

[kamuimac]

I wasn't aware Average Joe didn't have fifth grade reading skills. Wasn't one of the big complaints about questing post-Cata was that Blizz was "holding your hand" and "not allowing you to mess up". Do we need that for dungeons now, too? Big red letters saying avoid this, or don't get hit by this, for the people who can't be damned to read a few sentences before walking into a mythic dungeon that is supposed to be at least somewhat hard?

its not about reading comprehension - its about game needing to have "plug & play " approach to appeal to playerbase - wow ad 2004 was like this comapre to other games of the era - wow ad2017 isnt unlike its competition thats why nobody plays the game anymore besides people who sacrifice that much time that they simply cant let it go.

and those complains that you meantion - those came from nolifers - and blizzard fucked up royaly by listening to them - that why we ended up with garbage expansion like WoD

wow devs are simply incompetent - probably why so many inlucding Metzen left company not wanting to see their game going to complete shit anymore under incompetent PR monkeys like Ion.

[DakonBlackblade]

I guess they overestimated their player base. Kara was a step up from the launch mythics. Then 7.2 raised the launch mythics up to Kara-ish level and they gave us one tougher in CoEN, but the average Tom, Dick, and Larry couldn't handle it. Or worse. Just yesterday wiped like 5x on Smashspite. I'm the tank and I'm the only one left alive each time. And my entire group confesses it was their first time in the dungeon and they hadn't even read the dungeon journal. But it's "just a reg mythic" so obviously you can just wing everything and one shot the place, amirite?

This post is quite dumb, sorry but it is. If you have 15 dungeons or somethign and 1 out of those 15 is much harder everyone, no matter how good they are, will avoid it like the plague. If keystones were a rare comodity ppl might try it, but since its absurdly abundant as soon as a Court keystone drops ppl just asume it depleted and go for someone elses stone. Its very retarded to waste your time in Court even if you are the ebst WoW player on the universe when you have a craptom of much easier options to run your M+.

Another solution ot the problem would be to increase the difficulty of every other dungeon to Court level, having just 1 dungeon much harder than the others would never work tough.

Ps: Kara is also not tuned properly, uper Kara has built in Tyranical cause every boss there has 100 mechanics that need ot be executed correctly even on non Tyranical weeks. Ppl tend to avoid that one on higher keys like the plague as well.

[Jastall]

It IS odd. I did COEN the night it came out, so far before nerfs, and I honestly thought it could have been made harder, even on Mythic.

The problem wasn't really Mythic (even if on Mythic it was still harder than others) but M+. Cathedral was significantly more difficult than other instances in M+, especially on high Tyrannical where the bosses became terrors, and the trash was no slouch either. And if a keystone is significantly more difficult than the others, it's just not going to be run by many people.

[Evilmoo]

Lets bump this glorious topic, because

Cathedral of Eternal Night
The damage dealt by several boss abilities and health of several creatures summoned by bosses has been reduced.

THIRD nerf.

[BiggestNoob]

To be fair, I didn't notice much of a nerf, the bosses in this instance are still some of the harder ones on tyrannical.

[Fleckens]

Did a 15 yesterday and we were actually saying that it felt easier than before, we did a 15 last week as well on fortified and the first 2 bosses felt pretty similar in difficulty, third felt like he did similar damage but just had more health and last boss was also a bit easier although definitely still far ahead of most other bosses in mythic+ dungeons.

Still not sure why they can't get it properly balanced, I mean just looking at the health pools is enough, 3rd boss in a 15 cathedral had something like 630 mil while for example last boss in eye at the same difficulty has around 400 mil.

[Peporro]

I have done this on 16 with fortified past week and 18 tyrannical on 7.2.

All the people mentioning this is an easy dungeon... they have clearly not tried high M+ keys of this instance, it is completely different level compared to other dungeons.

[BananaHandsB]

So every harder boss in M+ with higher keys needs a proper tuning? There are several bosses and instances that are harder and easier compared to other instances. As mentioned above, CoS' last boss. This is an insane damage race on higher M+ and therefore needs a nerf? No, not really.

The problem is when pushing keys, if you get a cathedral it's just a complete wall at the higher levels, whereas every other dungeon is completely doable by the same group at the same level. It's just vastly overtuned and shouldn't become a road block in a key push just because of improper tuning. Because of the ways keys work now, you can push your key all the way to 15, get cathedral and then have to give up on your key after all that work. After attempting multiple +15 or higher cathedrals, I personally won't waste my time trying again, and ik most everyone feels the same. Convincing a group, hey we can do a +15 lower kara, we should be able to get thru this, only to get walled by ridiculously tuned bosses at the end is a terrible feeling and you end up spending 2+ hours in a dungeon with absolutely nothing to show for it but wasted time and key downranked to the exact same dungeon.

- - - Updated - - -

All the people mentioning this is an easy dungeon... they have clearly not tried high M+ keys of this instance, it is completely different level compared to other dungeons.

^^^ This ^^^

[arcaneshot]

wow devs are simply incompetent - probably why so many inlucding Metzen left company

Actually the big problem at Blizzard was there was no room for advancement because all the old guys who'd been there for 15+ years (therefore for promotion purposes why you saw a lot of mid-level people leave to other companies). That's only now changing within the past couple years.

And frankly Legion is still Tom Chilton's fault.

[QTface]

I would be okay with it being harder if it dropped better gear, either ilvl wise or have really good trinkets or set items, but there is nothing special in that instance to make it massively harder than every other one.

[Deleted]

The problem is when pushing keys, if you get a cathedral it's just a complete wall at the higher levels, whereas every other dungeon is completely doable by the same group at the same level. It's just vastly overtuned and shouldn't become a road block in a key push just because of improper tuning. Because of the ways keys work now, you can push your key all the way to 15, get cathedral and then have to give up on your key after all that work. After attempting multiple +15 or higher cathedrals, I personally won't waste my time trying again, and ik most everyone feels the same. Convincing a group, hey we can do a +15 lower kara, we should be able to get thru this, only to get walled by ridiculously tuned bosses at the end is a terrible feeling and you end up spending 2+ hours in a dungeon with absolutely nothing to show for it but wasted time and key downranked to the exact same dungeon.

- - - Updated - - -



^^^ This ^^^

Still never had the problem with guild groups even though they also rarely play that keys. But I saw the problems with that instance with randoms. It simply starts with failing the mechanics, that is bad enough.

But with the new M+ design you can at least deplete the key and get a -1 new one.

[Osmeric]

test post to try to unbug this thread. page 5 wasn't showing

[Evilmoo]

Still never had the problem with guild groups even though they also rarely play that keys. But I saw the problems with that instance with randoms. It simply starts with failing the mechanics, that is bad enough.

But with the new M+ design you can at least deplete the key and get a -1 new one.

To deplete a key and get a new dungeon you have to finish the dungeon, just not in time.
simply walking out will just give same dungeon with -1 difficulty.

[Saverem]

Ran a 12 CoEN yesterday and we 1 chested it, same group then went and did a 15 VoW and we 2 chested it...

Totally balanced.

[kamuimac]

Ran a 12 CoEN yesterday and we 1 chested it, same group then went and did a 15 VoW and we 2 chested it...

Totally balanced.

the only problem CoEN suffered from day 1 was loot being compeltly out of touch with tuning of instance - if they put in there loot 15-20 itl higher then rest of dungeons nobody would complain about it being hard and people would participate in droves

but since blizzard devs have stupid pride that dungeon was doomed to fail from begining and no amount of tuning will change the fact that people wont touch that place even with a stick

[Saverem]

the only problem CoEN suffered from day 1 was loot being compeltly out of touch with tuning of instance - if they put in there loot 15-20 itl higher then rest of dungeons nobody would complain about it being hard and people would participate in droves

but since blizzard devs have stupid pride that dungeon was doomed to fail from begining and no amount of tuning will change the fact that people wont touch that place even with a stick

Yep. If they scaled the loot accordingly, I'd have no problem. But that really wouldn't make that much sense since EVERY dungeon can be as hard as CoEN, it just depends on their M+ level. So really no point on making a +12 CoEN to have the same loot level as a +15 every other dungeon. Just make them all equal, if you want to get +15 loot in CoEN....then do a +15 CoEN...