Raid preparations causing massive burnout

[Beazzles]

most of the examples used a trinket from the raid we just left, and as i said "emerald nightmare" not Nighthold
but yes there is one trinket that if it rolls titanforge +25 it can be better then a normal ToS trinket

The stat stick from ToV off Helya is another example, thats not from Nighthold. So there is two if that satisfies your pre-Nighthold requisite.

[FelPlague]

The stat stick from ToV off Helya is another example, thats not from Nighthold. So there is two if that satisfies your pre-Nighthold requisite.

i know anything can be BIS if it titanforges
but people wanting to do old content a million times over for the 1/1000000 chance to titqanforge is not blizzards fault
i hate titanforging but people just will do anything for that 1% dps increase

is my example

[Zamfix]

I want WotLK style raiding back. I want to just open a page with a BiS list, farm for it, pick the best talents and do decent dps.

The game you're looking for is called "Diablo"

[ThrashMetalFtw]

The game you're looking for is called "Diablo"

Uhm what? The Legion lootsystem is pretty much copying D3 at this point. That's why ppl are complaining about it lol. Legendaries and insane random TF procs are straight up copied from D3, and that kind of RNG simply doesn't belong in WoW.

The pre-MoP loot system had nothing to do with Diablo (or other ARPGs) at all...

[Marrilaife]

The stat stick from ToV off Helya is another example, thats not from Nighthold.

There are pvp trinkets that are exactly the same stat sticks with the same item budget (the ones with "accolade" in name).

[laplacedemon]

but people wanting to do old content a million times over for the 1/1000000 chance to titqanforge is not blizzards fault

They're the ones who added titanforging and they're the ones who didn't put a cap for old content. And everyone knows people will do *anything* to get the best gear... So maybe they're partly to blame at least since it's obvious that they want to give the people the chance to redo old content for titanforged gear?

[Deleted]

I want WotLK style raiding back. I want to just open a page with a BiS list, farm for it, pick the best talents and do decent dps.

That caused a huge burnout and massive waves of unsubs so I very much doubt they'll ever go back to it. They've spoken against that design on many occasions.
It's one of the moments that made WoW subs plummet downward from the previous constant growth.

Even if the designers would like to do that, I doubt the business people would let that slide, they're too afraid of losing the players they have now.


With that said - the current TF system needs to die in fire together with throughput legendaries. Removing the aggressive randomness from raid preparation phases would be awesome.

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i know anything can be BIS if it titanforges
but people wanting to do old content a million times over for the 1/1000000 chance to titqanforge is not blizzards fault
i hate titanforging but people just will do anything for that 1% dps increase

And Blizzard should surely know this and design their game accordingly. They have 12 years of design example of "people forcing themselves to burnout if given the chance". They really should have known better when they introduces TF and throughput legos. I knew it was the death of my raiding fun the minute I realized it (and I haven't raided Mythic since early EN).

[Alvito]

except you need to hope for a mythic titanforged for it to be worthwhile

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yeah titanforged, with the titanforge system any trinket from any raid can be "BIS" look at unstable crystal, we are talking base though, as the chance of getting it titanforge is not even worth it

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convergence of fates is from Nighthold, not EN
that is the raid we just left... we are talking about raids that are now 3 raids old, not 1

That is the point people are making and you are missing. Long shot or not when people want an edge they will do some rather silly things to try for it. Keeping old content relevant the way Blizzard has with titanforging has gone way too far. Now it isn't a problem for everybody, but it is for people at the higher end of pve and for people that want their bis items. In years past you could farm for 1 or 2 things once you had them you were set. Now the gearing process never ends. Which is also a big part of the balance issues in the game. But the fact none of us have the same gear set up is a different discussion.

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i know anything can be BIS if it titanforges
but people wanting to do old content a million times over for the 1/1000000 chance to titqanforge is not blizzards fault
i hate titanforging but people just will do anything for that 1% dps increase

is my example

It is Blizzard's fault to some degree at the very least. Not capping titanforging at some sort of limit above original item level has shown to be a mess through all of Legion.

[Deleted]

So since Blizzard hates good set bonuses and trinkets, a lot of classes have to run NH and even EN to get their BiS.

And then no one is even sure what's BiS and what's not. People point to sims but they give wildly inaccurate results (srsly, what's up with nightly builds completely changing stat priorities?). There are no clear gearing guides, everyone just says LOL sim it. I just spent several hours shuffling and reshuffling my gear and talents and I'm still thoroughly confused and tbh don't even want to raid anymore.

I want WotLK style raiding back. I want to just open a page with a BiS list, farm for it, pick the best talents and do decent dps.

Or you... could just roll with whatever you get, go for the stats that gives a good feel to your rotation and wing it? Who knows, you might have fun D:

[Highwhale]

Another whine bitch thread. Thanks god you didn't played during Vanilla/TBC. When raid preps means not only gear but farm math, creating pots/gear/resist stuff. On whole guild scale level.

[Fabinas]

That is the point people are making and you are missing. Long shot or not when people want an edge they will do some rather silly things to try for it. Keeping old content relevant the way Blizzard has with titanforging has gone way too far. Now it isn't a problem for everybody, but it is for people at the higher end of pve and for people that want their bis items. In years past you could farm for 1 or 2 things once you had them you were set. Now the gearing process never ends. Which is also a big part of the balance issues in the game. But the fact none of us have the same gear set up is a different discussion.

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It is Blizzard's fault to some degree at the very least. Not capping titanforging at some sort of limit above original item level has shown to be a mess through all of Legion.

I'd say it's only Blizzard's fault. They are even causing item design problems for new tiers when the old items can possibly be better than the new tier ones, if they titanforge. That's why they nerfed NH trinkets when ToS launched, even if it was for some classes or specs only.

It's possible they feel that not many people will get the titanforged EN or NH items, so people will resort to using the new tier ones. So why bother cap the old ones? But the fact that some people with persistence and luck are running old content and invalidate the new content itms is annoying. And if this annoyance grows and expresses itself loudly on forums, maybe they will be forced to change their minds.

Imagine a (very unlikely, but still possible) scenario, because of the lack of ilvl cap on older content: A very good player getting his BiS trinket(s) from EN and parses in ToS so high, that no item combination from ToS will ever surpass that parse. And the same player keeps parsing first, week after week. That single occurence would create great turmoil.

[XDurionX]

If the balancing is bad, people complain. If the balancing is good, people complain as well.

[Zamfix]

Uhm what? The Legion lootsystem is pretty much copying D3 at this point. That's why ppl are complaining about it lol. Legendaries and insane random TF procs are straight up copied from D3, and that kind of RNG simply doesn't belong in WoW.

The pre-MoP loot system had nothing to do with Diablo (or other ARPGs) at all...

He said he wants a game where he can look at a BIS list, get those pieces, and be good. That's Diablo.

[Dizzeeyooo]

The game you're looking for is called "Diablo"

He said he wants a game where he can look at a BIS list, get those pieces, and be good. That's Diablo.

feelsbad when someone who has clearly never played diablo tries to talk about how loot works in diablo

[Deleted]

I want WotLK style raiding back. I want to just open a page with a BiS list, farm for it, pick the best talents and do decent dps.

The game you're looking for is called "Diablo"

That caused a huge burnout and massive waves of unsubs so I very much doubt they'll ever go back to it. They've spoken against that design on many occasions.
It's one of the moments that made WoW subs plummet downward from the previous constant growth.

what? working off a BiS List is quite the opposite of a burnout style of gaming. you have absolutely no pressure outside of raids. Just kill raid bosses and hope for the correct drop. Raid preparation after xpack release? not more than a week. Preparation for the next content? not more than one or two raid-evenings per week and ptr testing.

The tryhard factors like endless alt/split runs is made by community and not made by game design and was never so hard practiced like nowadays, promoted by the loot system of legion. Its your descission to tryhard a boss down asap.

[Teri]

He said he wants a game where he can look at a BIS list, get those pieces, and be good. That's Diablo.

Diablo and BIS? with items with RANDOM stat ranges even moreso then the whole titanforge system, rofl.

I guess that primal ancient system changed it somewhat but the old 1 version of loot RNG is nothing like Diablo ever was.

[Deleted]

It is Blizzard's fault to some degree at the very least. Not capping titanforging at some sort of limit above original item level has shown to be a mess through all of Legion.

They aren't capped at base +50 Ilvl ?

[Teri]

They aren't capped at base +50 Ilvl ?

No, the system always capped at a maximum of 895 - 910 - 925 - 955

LFR ToS loot going from 885 to 955 +70 IS possible but exceedingly rare. Even while the chance might be misleading seeing it happen in LFR runs, seeing people with full 955 LFR is impossible.

Even right before ToS was out there were less then 100 people in 923+ and that includes mostly pvpers and Mythic raiders.

[Deleted]

what? working off a BiS List is quite the opposite of a burnout style of gaming. you have absolutely no pressure outside of raids. Just kill raid bosses and hope for the correct drop.

Not saying you're wrong wanting to go back to that.
Just saying Blizzard has been distancing themselves from that design with every expac since Wrath. They don't want to go back to the situation where you can "target" loot by collecting tokens which are flipped to BiS loot pieces. They've mentioned this many, many times in interviews. They think "random loot drops" are the shits.

*shrug* that's what Blizzard seems to be thinking and the way they've been designing expacs since then seem to confirm that they love RNG.

Personally I don't have anything against random drops, but I think the loot/reward system we have now is really uninspiring and unrewarding, unless you're 24/7 professional streamer and can grind for living.

TF and throughput legos are the worst system they've ever managed to put together and whoever is responsible for that design should seriously consider changing career.

I wish they'd re-consider, but I'm not holding my breath. Their trackrecord since Wrath says we're going to get even more RNG in the future.

[burek]

Diablo and BIS? with items with RANDOM stat ranges even moreso then the whole titanforge system, rofl.

I guess that primal ancient system changed it somewhat but the old 1 version of loot RNG is nothing like Diablo ever was.

He is right though, random stat ranges are irrelevant. You have a list of items, you get them all and play your build. Other items with higher rolls are not going to work with your build. In WoW on the other hand, higher rolled items are usually better than the ones from your hypothetical list.