Sylvanas is a raid boss!

[Sorshen]

Hmm, you're right. I forgot about that one.

[Ursiel]

Hmm, you're right. I forgot about that one.

I mean, admittedly, it could refer to AFTER she became the Banshee Queen? But I don't know for certain.

[Taurengod]

Varimathras taunts Alliance

So we establish that he is talking to the Alliance raid. So all of his taunts are from their point of view.

Varimathras: So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.

From the way Varimathas talks it sounds like he has some knowledge of a plan put in motion to destroy the alliance before the Battle for UC, most likely Sylvanas. Planting the seeds of its downfall is most likely a sleeper agent/weapon inside the alliance or its a person who is a loose cannon and would destablize the alliance from within in response to a Horde action. This leads me to think its probably Jaina (present at the Battle for UC, saving the Forsaken from Varian in fact.)

Varimathras: When your thrones run red with betrayal... when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your hearth... only then you will know. And it will be too late.

The first sentence when speaking to the Alliance means that someone in the Alliance will be the instrument of their downfall. However, it also goes on to say that only when you have been conquered by the Forsaken will you realize who it was that betrayed you, but by then it will be too late to stop it.

Varimathras: It matters not. You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you.

He finishes by saying that it doesn't matter because you don't recognize the real threat that is waiting to attack.

Varimathras taunts Horde

This is him talking to members of the Horde raid now.

Varimathras: So, she found me at last. Sent her underlings to finish the job.

This is most likely just a jab at Sylvanas and us being the one to confront him. However it is odd he doesn't refer to her by name and only as "she".

Varimathras: Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No... I'd wager you surrendered it willingly... or were convinced you did.

He jabs at Sylvanas but also implies that she took and deceived her way to the throne instead of came into it by merit. So i believe that she had something to do with Vol'jin's death, either by inaction to save him, or otherwise insured he died from his wounds. In fact she may have used magic to make Vol'jin assume that the Loa had chosen her to succeed him.

My personal theory is that during the broken shore when Sylvanas stops fighting and looks around, she see's Vol'jin talking but never lifts her bow to shoot the demon thats coming to attack him from his blindside. Then afterwards she takes him to her Forsaken ship and sails to Orgrimmar, however. What if Vol'jin died on his way back to Orgrimmar and Sylvannas reanimated either had his body possesed by a Banshee or some other way to reanimate him under her control for a limited time. So he could promote her to Warchief and no one would be the wiser. My only proof of this is the fact that he is gray in the cinematic where Sylvannas becomes Warchief. one could argue this is from Fel Poison but no one else has turned gray like this when poisoned by fel to my knowledge.

Varimathras: It matters not. You are blind to the darkness in your midst."

This is similar to the alliance quote, but it sounds like he is implying that someone within the Horde, perhaps Sylvanas, is doing the entire Horde a great evil. In Sylvanas's case it could simply be telling of her misdeeds in becoming the Warchief or it could mean her, or someone else in the Horde is consorting with the Void Lords

[Jokubas]

This isn't the first time we've gotten a warning like this, either. Gul'dan had something similar going on with his faction-specific taunts.

Have you forgotten your humiliation on the Broken Shore? How your precious High King was bent and broken before me? Will you beg for your lives as he did, whimpering like some worthless dog?

Your pathetic Alliance will fall to dust. Your new boy King will bow down and serve me, as will all of you!

Have you forgotten your humiliation on the Broken Shore? How your mighty Warchief was stuck in the belly like a helpless piglet? Will you die slowly as he did, consumed by fel corruption and squealing for a merciful end?

Your pathetic Horde will fall to dust. In the end, death will inherit this world... and she will be waiting.

In both, he taunts the faction about their leader. He thinks he'll beat both factions, but that Sylvanas will welcome her faction dying.

[Deleted]

holy fuckin shit lads varimathias is able to talk with all these tortures and mouth cage?

[Logwyn]

holy fuckin shit lads varimathias is able to talk with all these tortures and mouth cage?

Sylvania is a dread lord?

[Nurasu]

A lot of you are getting way too hung up on the "betrayal". The Horde can absolutely betray the Alliance - break an agreement, a treaty, etc. This is so obviously talking about Sylvannas; whether or not they will make her a villain, I have no idea, but this isn't even that cryptic ffs.

[Goundin]

It would be nice if people stopped complaining about who/how many have died in each faction. It's World of Warcraft, not World of Everything Needs To Be Equalcraft... I'd love for Jaina to be a villain, but because it's good for the progression of the story. Not because it'll balance out the kill count.

Never said it was about balance. Jaina just isn't a good, interesting character. Slyvanas has a good story and now every horde leader needs to be a boss.

[Magnagarde]

So we establish that he is talking to the Alliance raid. So all of his taunts are from their point of view.


From the way Varimathas talks it sounds like he has some knowledge of a plan put in motion to destroy the alliance before the Battle for UC, most likely Sylvanas. Planting the seeds of its downfall is most likely a sleeper agent/weapon inside the alliance or its a person who is a loose cannon and would destablize the alliance from within in response to a Horde action. This leads me to think its probably Jaina (present at the Battle for UC, saving the Forsaken from Varian in fact.)


The first sentence when speaking to the Alliance means that someone in the Alliance will be the instrument of their downfall. However, it also goes on to say that only when you have been conquered by the Forsaken will you realize who it was that betrayed you, but by then it will be too late to stop it.

He finishes by saying that it doesn't matter because you don't recognize the real threat that is waiting to attack.


This is him talking to members of the Horde raid now.


This is most likely just a jab at Sylvanas and us being the one to confront him. However it is odd he doesn't refer to her by name and only as "she".

He jabs at Sylvanas but also implies that she took and deceived her way to the throne instead of came into it by merit. So i believe that she had something to do with Vol'jin's death, either by inaction to save him, or otherwise insured he died from his wounds. In fact she may have used magic to make Vol'jin assume that the Loa had chosen her to succeed him.

My personal theory is that during the broken shore when Sylvanas stops fighting and looks around, she see's Vol'jin talking but never lifts her bow to shoot the demon thats coming to attack him from his blindside. Then afterwards she takes him to her Forsaken ship and sails to Orgrimmar, however. What if Vol'jin died on his way back to Orgrimmar and Sylvannas reanimated either had his body possesed by a Banshee or some other way to reanimate him under her control for a limited time. So he could promote her to Warchief and no one would be the wiser. My only proof of this is the fact that he is gray in the cinematic where Sylvannas becomes Warchief. one could argue this is from Fel Poison but no one else has turned gray like this when poisoned by fel to my knowledge.


This is similar to the alliance quote, but it sounds like he is implying that someone within the Horde, perhaps Sylvanas, is doing the entire Horde a great evil. In Sylvanas's case it could simply be telling of her misdeeds in becoming the Warchief or it could mean her, or someone else in the Horde is consorting with the Void Lords

Good post, really, although Sylvanas was surprised to be named warchief. Jaina's role in it could be replaced by one of Sylvanas' sisters too. It is highly possible that someone set Vol'jin up with the vision and everything.

Jaina would have no reason to kill any other Alliance leader. Distance herself - definitely, but not outright betray.

[blackblade]

What if they brought back Vol'jin or Thrall to replace her?

Saurfang as High King of Cleaves

[Minikin]

Siege of Undercity

another horde warchief corrupted by the old dudes under the earth







They must have amazing retirement plans, thats why all these leaders keep flocking to them.

[Tabrotar]

it's obvious hes talking about sylvanas but horde fanboys will deny it for eternity.

Fixed that for you.

[Deleted]

Fixed that for you.

im gonna love to murder that fucking white haired human bitch every week fro 7 months

[Jokubas]

I've been suspicious of Sylvanas for a long time, so I obviously have a bias, but I don't think it's just my bias speaking this time.

The Legion website had this quote, setting up the possibility that she could "go bad."

The Forsaken's ruthless leader is a formidable champion of her people. But with the Burning Legion's invasion, the stakes for the Dark Lady have never been higher. Should Sylvanas perish, her demise will be the beginning of her eternal damnation. All that stand between her and this doom are her val'kyr, yet few of these spirit guardians remain. As her fate edges closer to the abyss, Sylvanas must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul.

In the questing, Sylvanas somehow has information about the Broken Isles, and takes a mysterious detour from our main goal in order to make a secret deal with Helya (Helya was corrupted by Loken, who was working for the old gods). This deal involved Sylvanas acquiring an artifact that she was going to use to knowingly enslave an entire race.

The Dark Mirror short story has a few interesting bits as well.

The queen whispered an incantation and the stones parted, revealing a darkened hallway. It was one of the many routes she used for moving about the city in secret, and he suspected there were a few such passageways she kept even from him.

Sylvanas has secret passages, with some containing torture chambers, and even her right-hand man suspects he doesn't know them all. Within these torture chambers, she tortures people like members of the Argent Crusade, who are neutral and to this day portrayed as unambiguously heroic.

Just for clarity, however, the story even explains that the Argent Crusade did not start the fight.

Nathanos stood silent. There was no reason to deny the truth. He had lingered at the farm on orders from his queen, luring her enemies to the slaughter. He'd taken special delight in tormenting the high elf rangers of the northern foothills, the very Farstriders he'd once served alongside and commanded. Their haughty outrage bled away as they died, or twisted into a garish grimace upon those raised into undeath. And through all of it, no matter how noble the hero or how close a friend his victim might have been, Nathanos felt neither pity nor remorse. He felt nothing. He had done his duty, one to which he was well suited. His victories had earned the Dark Lady's favor. There was nothing else he could ever conceive of wanting.

Once the Forsaken got their minds back, Sylvanas ordered Nathanos to slaughter those who were lucky enough to survive the Scourge. There is no given justification for this. In fact, when Nathanos regains some humanity by the end, he feels regret (which is the whole point of the story).

But it is shown that it really didn't matter who you were killed by. Dark Ranger Velonara says:

I was a maiden, pure and true. A young ranger in service of Silvermoon, betrothed to the nobleman of my dreams.

Then Arthas came.

I fell in battle as the mad prince cut a black scar through the land I loved. But at least I was at peace, I suppose. For a time. Until the Banshee Queen pulled me back from beyond and damned my soul into her service.

You'll have to pardon me if I have little patience for imbeciles like Moorgoth, who take for granted what they have and think to find happiness in pain.

Arthas actually left some of the elves dead, apparently, but Sylvanas forced them into the situation that she hated Arthas so much for.

Then, in Nighthold, Gul'dan taunted the Horde by saying that Sylvanas would be waiting for them in death. Now we have Varimathras taunting both factions about her.

This expansion has not been subtle about how it views Sylvanas, and it's not kind.

[delus]

This is the shattered mask Varamathras says will be hanging over the Alliance hearth. Varimathras doesn't really know about Jaina, he doesn't have anything to do with Jaina. He has had a long history with sylvanas and served under her. At least go the reasonable route and say hes a dreadlord and lying to us.

[Sigxy]

But it is shown that it really didn't matter who you were killed by. Dark Ranger Velonara says:

Arthas actually left some of the elves dead, apparently, but Sylvanas forced them into the situation that she hated Arthas so much for.

There are a couple of people here arounds who will say that there's no proof they weren't raised before the Forsaken was made, but I do feel the same that she could've easily raised them afterwards. I mean, she's the Banshee Queen - she's an undead Dark Ranger, the most powerful "banshee" of them all, the LEADER of the forsaken... For MANY years... and people refuse to believe that she may or may not have picked up the arts of necromancy!

Edit: Not to mention, there was a sudden increase of them out of nowhere in WotLK. Because I sure don't recall seeing a single one of them in vanilla nor TBC. And if someone wants to say "they were just hiding or they were just elsewhere" - ALL of them? Really...?

This is the shattered mask Varamathras says will be hanging over the Alliance hearth. Varimathras doesn't really know about Jaina, he doesn't have anything to do with Jaina. At least go the reasonable route and say hes a dreadlord and lying to us.

I can buy the fact that the he knows some stuff about Jaina (pretty sure it's been shown a few times that demons tends to know stuff which makes no sense but ya know, eyes everywhere or something like that.) but I do NOT believe Jaina would -ever- betray the Alliance. Why would she? What would be her motives of doing so?

[Taurengod]

Good post, really, although Sylvanas was surprised to be named warchief. Jaina's role in it could be replaced by one of Sylvanas' sisters too. It is highly possible that someone set Vol'jin up with the vision and everything.

Jaina would have no reason to kill any other Alliance leader. Distance herself - definitely, but not outright betray.

Well it wouldn't help her at all if she is named and is either happy or seemed vindicated by her appointment. People are already suspicious of her and anything other than surprise would have been problematic and met with outright opposition.

True it doesn't have to be Jaina and she could be a red herring. However, the new armor datamined points to Kul Tiras as an area for the next expansion. Not to mention after Varian's death she seemed to quit the alliance for allying with the Horde, and the Kirin tor for the same reason. Jaina could make a pact with the void lords through N'Zoth/Azshara intending to unleash their fury on the horde, and failing to acknowledge that they might go after the whole planet.

[delus]

I can buy the fact that the he knows some stuff about Jaina (pretty sure it's been shown a few times that demons tends to know stuff which makes no sense but ya know, eyes everywhere or something like that.) but I do NOT believe Jaina would -ever- betray the Alliance. Why would she? What would be her motives of doing so?

The problem with that is the statement assumes that the legion will fall as sargeras hasn't crushed every living creature on azeroth under his heel. In other words "she" would be operating independent of the legion. So this means he would have to have a close understanding of/relationship with this female who operates independently of the legion.

[Vampiregenesis]

Its funny that out of all bosses in the new raid varimathras seems to be the most interesting one.

[Mukki]

You're going to believe the words of a demon? If anything, Jaina will be a boss that will hopefully die in the most brutal way. Alliance needs to lose more main characters, horde has suffered enough.

Alliance lost Varian. Learn the lore.