[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Reith]

Well as the opener would be Bow-J-Crusade-FV-Wake-FV-AT-FV which puts you at 9 and to pick a talent in the hoped of making the last 6 stack up in a global or two less isn't very efficient which I kinda said already with my Eye for an Eye comment. So I'm still curious what he thinks he has to teach us here...not that I think a player that doesn't believe in sims and hasn't stepped in to mythic will be able to teach us much.

Exactly why I won't tell you anything: elitism. I'll keep you ignorant. Sims have their place but only when considering their parameters. It doesn't go outside them.

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I kind of like the current gearing system. I think Blizzard has done a much better job of keeping the values of stats close to eachother. For players that aren't checking stat weights or that find them once and never update them, it means they're less suboptimal than they were in the past. There's still an advantage to simming of course, but more casual players can equip a higher ilvl piece of gear and it's much more likely now than in the past that it's actually an upgrade.

Yes, because reforging never existed... lol

[Morally Grey Storm]

An added note, Method and Exorsus are both running a Ret for Mythic KJ.

Slightly Greater blessing of wisdom
Strong ondemand aoe
Ability to soak apocalypse
It's the gimmicks like these is reason why Retribution is brought there.

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Fun fact: untalented Heroic leap is better than derpony. Talented Heroic leap is leaps above derpony.


Playing on my arms Warr I feel like Retribution has no mobility whatsoever. Oh wait.

[Tonyman64]

Slightly Greater blessing of wisdom
Strong ondemand aoe
Ability to soak apocalypse
It's the gimmicks like these is reason why Retribution is brought there.

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Fun fact: untalented Heroic leap is better than derpony. Talented Heroic leap is leaps above derpony.


Playing on my arms Warr I feel like Retribution has no mobility whatsoever. Oh wait.

Well, yes. I know they're there for gimmicks, that's why each only has one. Is wisdom really that useful? 1% every 10 seconds seems almost completely negligible.

I cry a little every time I hop on my Elekk for a split second and think about how we used to be able to just run 15+% faster than baseline at all times.

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Exactly why I won't tell you anything: elitism. I'll keep you ignorant. Sims have their place but only when considering their parameters. It doesn't go outside them.

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Yes, because reforging never existed... lol

Reforging still required knowing relative stat weights, which many casual players don't (or the ones they know are wrong), so it didn't really help there. I do wish I could reforge all this mastery into other stats, but I get why Blizzard removed it.

[Reith]

Well, yes. I know they're there for gimmicks, that's why each only has one. Is wisdom really that useful? 1% every 10 seconds seems almost completely negligible.

I cry a little every time I hop on my Elekk for a split second and think about how we used to be able to just run 15+% faster than baseline at all times.

Wisdom is really overrated. It's only 6% mana every minute, which will probably not make much of a difference most of the time. KJ is Ret's best fight, so of course they'd have one for that. Yeah, I miss the speed talent tier as well as the base movement speed... sigh.

Reforging still required knowing relative stat weights, which many casual players don't (or the ones they know are wrong), so it didn't really help there. I do wish I could reforge all this mastery into other stats, but I get why Blizzard removed it.

It helped that stats were actually relatively unbalanced in knowing which were better than others, funny enough.

[Tonyman64]

It helped that stats were actually relatively unbalanced in knowing which were better than others, funny enough.

Amusingly, quite true. Hit still made things ugly though.

[Deleted]

Wisdom is really overrated. It's only 6% mana every minute, which will probably not make much of a difference most of the time.

well in a 7min fight (roughly the average killtime for "casual" hc guilds in ToS on most bosses) you get ~ 470k mana back
thats 3x a manapotion for free over the fight and thats far from overrated for healers like priests or monks
if we stay at a holypriest it will be the same as 10 PoH or ~15mil heal for free over the fight
its not as good as innervate for burst healing but it gives alot of freedom to healers that would have be be more carefull with "aoe spam"

[Deleted]

well in a 7min fight (roughly the average killtime for "casual" hc guilds in ToS on most bosses) you get ~ 470k mana back
thats 3x a manapotion for free over the fight and thats far from overrated for healers like priests or monks
if we stay at a holypriest it will be the same as 10 PoH or ~15mil heal for free over the fight
its not as good as innervate for burst healing but it gives alot of freedom to healers that would have be be more carefull with "aoe spam"

It is good for aggresive increased "cast per minute" healing that goes to overheal but tops meters. It is not as good for burst healing and increased mana cost healing needed for some mechanics, but is still decent. However not a reason to take a class that has 20% less output than another for an encounter progress.

[Deleted]

It is good for aggresive increased "cast per minute" healing that goes to overheal but tops meters. It is not as good for burst healing and increased mana cost healing needed for some mechanics, but is still decent. However not a reason to take a class that has 20% less output than another for an encounter progress.

how about they just want to see some additional phases on the boss and the ret allows them to go on with on or 2 dead people thanks to retribution
I will hold my judgement until the final kill but I expect a ret to be not on the setup

could be for bops as well but hmmm

[Deleted]

BoPs are great for that particular soaking: Instead of having people with immunities that may or may not be able to go for it or have to alternate etc , bops provide with a pre assigned person regardless of personal positioning etc as long as they remain in range for the cast.

[Deleted]

I know ilvl isn't everything, but it's a better indicator than it has been at many points in the past and that's good for more casual players. I'm not saying it's perfectly balanced, but the secondaries are much better balanced than they were in the past. Also, if I recall correctly, a greater judgement build can be pretty close to builds that don't use mastery. I don't think sims really support what you are saying, mastery is certainly worse than our other secondaries, but not to the extent that you seem to think.

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My latest sims put mastery 4DPS behind the others per point of rating. It was about 20% worse than other stats. Sure,i call it terrible, but that is because we are terrible atm, and if we don't maximise we are hopeless.

I do think things were better before, when the primary stats were alot more valuable than the secondaries. In that time, you could equip a high ilvl piece and while you wanted the perfect secondaries, it wasn't as bad, especially when reforging was in.

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Let's be honest now. As a Ret atm, if you are not switching to another class (unless you can heal or maybe tank), you are holding back your raid.

Le sigh... i can't contest that very much. But i wanted the tier sets for transmog. :x

[Reith]

well in a 7min fight (roughly the average killtime for "casual" hc guilds in ToS on most bosses) you get ~ 470k mana back
thats 3x a manapotion for free over the fight and thats far from overrated for healers like priests or monks
if we stay at a holypriest it will be the same as 10 PoH or ~15mil heal for free over the fight
its not as good as innervate for burst healing but it gives alot of freedom to healers that would have be be more carefull with "aoe spam"

My point is that most of the time, it won't have a noticeable effect on actually saving anyone. If you're not going OOM for most of the fight without it, it's basically useless, and if you are going OOM a lot, you (or someone else, maybe the raid leader deciding on too few healers even) are probably doing something wrong.

[Redblade]

Exactly why I won't tell you anything: elitism. I'll keep you ignorant.

So basically you're full of shit just as I thought.

[Reith]

So basically you're full of shit just as I thought.

I want you to believe that. You're not allowed to question yourself. Keep thinking you know everything there is to know about the game. I'll keep exploring.

[Redblade]

I want you to believe that. You're not allowed to question yourself. Keep thinking you know everything there is to know about the game. I'll keep exploring.

Well I asked for your claimed insight but as you're refusing to tell us what it is but instead being snarky about it I'd say you're either trolling or just full of shit looking for attention. If you have nothing to add to the discussion but insinuation that you know something then I'd say we're better off without your posts.

[Reith]

Well I asked for your claimed insight but as you're refusing to tell us what it is but instead being snarky about it I'd say you're either trolling or just full of shit looking for attention. If you have nothing to add to the discussion but insinuation that you know something then I'd say we're better off without your posts.

Quoting you:

not that I think a player that doesn't believe in sims and hasn't stepped in to mythic will be able to teach us much.

You're a creator of toxic environments. You not only were wrong about the sims part, but you belittle others for their choice of not doing mythic content. I don't treat the game like a job, sorry. I just like to do my best in my guild. Maybe you're a guild hopper, but I'm not. Ignored because I'm not letting this escalate.

[Deleted]

Get a room you two.
Bet Storm and a random Blizz Dev would do less noise

[Morally Grey Storm]

That's not very nice of you.
I would not make no fuss at all.
I would just thoroughly, with greater delight and furious anger, sodomize whoever is responsible for Retribution design and implementation, with a broken shovelshaft.

There should be no quarrel between us brothers in Light.
United we shall stand, United we shall fall, but shoulder to shoulder nevertheless.

[Deleted]

My point is that most of the time, it won't have a noticeable effect on actually saving anyone. If you're not going OOM for most of the fight without it, it's basically useless, and if you are going OOM a lot, you (or someone else, maybe the raid leader deciding on too few healers even) are probably doing something wrong.

this is so much bs idk how you even came up with it
is innervate also shit for you? are mana potions overrated and healers should take prolonged power potions because if you need those 160k mana you are doing something wrong
~40% of your mana for free on top of potions etc for a healer is so massive that you can be sure that you'll see the difference in a skilled healer when he gets the buff
this is what allows you to play a boss with 2 healers instead of 3 (or 3heal instead of 4) and so get more dps into your raid (even if its just a ret pala)

[Morally Grey Storm]

this is so much bs idk how you even came up with it
is innervate also shit for you? are mana potions overrated and healers should take prolonged power potions because if you need those 160k mana you are doing something wrong
~40% of your mana for free on top of potions etc for a healer is so massive that you can be sure that you'll see the difference in a skilled healer when he gets the buff
this is what allows you to play a boss with 2 healers instead of 3 (or 3heal instead of 4) and so get more dps into your raid (even if its just a ret pala)

Slighter blessing of shallow wisdom allows 2healing encounters?
Now that is something.
Please do continue, you might provide some mild amusement.

[Redblade]

Quoting you:

You're a creator of toxic environments. You not only were wrong about the sims part, but you belittle others for their choice of not doing mythic content. I don't treat the game like a job, sorry. I just like to do my best in my guild. Maybe you're a guild hopper, but I'm not. Ignored because I'm not letting this escalate.

So HOW was I wrong? You claim you know this secret to playing ret so out with it or STFU. That I don't think you have anything to teach us because you don't believe in sims or do mythic raiding has nothing to do with trying to belittle you. Sims are a cornerstone of the theory-crafting done as it provides us with means to test things with different perimeters over thousands of iterations, no believing in them with no further explanation as to why they are wrong is an asinine argument. That you don't raid mythic leads me to believe that you don't spend any considerable about of time testing and theory-crafting nor that you have any intimate knowledge how the game plays at that level. Optimizing for a 2 min normal fight is not the same as optimizing for that 10 minute mythic fight.

So grow up and stop acting like I insulted you in some way and explain to me/us why we're wrong or stop with your claims that you know better.