[Spoilers] 7.3 Blood elf discussion.

[Rhlor]

Sunstrider Highguard in Azuremyst Isle

[Friendlyimmolation]

Yeah, see, hating on an entire species because of one individual isn't nowhere near hating on an entire species for most of that species allying with orcs.

Why are you trying to argue when you make it blatantly obvious if you ever did read any book with Alleria you forgot her character?

She's an undead testing deadly diseases on the living, mostly innocent humans she captured from Hillsbrad since Vanilla. Spin that whatever way you want, it doesn't get any less evil. When the Alliance destroyed Taurajo everyone was up in arms yet the Forsaken fanboys seem to forgive Sylvanas for targeting farmers.

I love this argument

"They are Alliance, and immediately innocent. It didn't matter that they fought the forsaken since vanilla. Innocent Innocent innocent!

They are twisting souls, that is evil and always will be.

its really terrible how she forces people and doesn't give them a choice.

" Isn't it obvious, Warchief? I server the Horde. "

Not even Garrosh believed that shite. Neither should you.

You mean "the only atrocities are the ones I didn't commit" guy? Garrosh only hated Sylvanas and the Val'kyr because it ruined his plans.

also stop using a sarcastic response as "see? SHES EVUL!!1"

[Mehrunes]

She's an undead testing deadly diseases on the living, mostly innocent humans she captured from Hillsbrad since Vanilla. Spin that whatever way you want, it doesn't get any less evil. When the Alliance destroyed Taurajo everyone was up in arms yet the Forsaken fanboys seem to forgive Sylvanas for targeting farmers.

Given how the farmers in the region formed a militia against the Forsaken, where's your source for the ones that have been captured being innocent?

They are twisting souls, that is evil and always will be.

Wat.

" Isn't it obvious, Warchief? I server the Horde. "

Not even Garrosh believed that shite. Neither should you.

Are you people seriously still using Sylvanas sarcastically shit talking to Garrosh as any real argument?

[Aucald]

So at best she's pro-Sons of Lothar. If that automatically means one is pro-Alliance, you should inform Khadgar of it, because it seems he lost that memo. And it took him merely a few years of hanging around Naaru to drop his faction allegiance. Meanwhile Alleria still clings to "hers", despite being Quel'thalas loyalist first and foremost, after a thousand years of handing with the Naaru (which dwarfs her time spent even in Sons of Lothar by few hundredfold). Because the hatred she had for Orcs magically reignited after she already dropped it, because she had many encounters with the Orcs on Argus or something.

Well she's not "pro-Sons of Lothar" as she's counted among their roster. Khadgar, too, was always more willing to extend an olive branch and at least try to understand his previous opponents (given the relative quickness of him striking up a friendship with Garona). As for her loyalty to Quel'thalas, didn't she essentially disobey her king to prove a point by helping the Alliance in WC2 despite Anasterian not believing the Horde threat was a legitimate reason to call in the debt he owed to the Arathi? Not to say she's not loyal to Quel'thalas, but this kind of stands in contrast to your portrayal of her loyalties.

Meanwhile in the real world, Alleria has ever been pro-Alliance in general in about the same capacity as Gruul. They teamed up with Alliance for their own reasons, to achieve their own goals. Damn, I never knew Gruul was such an amazing Alliance patriot. Someone should build him a statute at the gates of Stormwind, for he is the lost member of Sons of Lothar. The Horde should build one for their best bud Deathwing too. And if she considers the damage to be the product of the Horde, it only means the defense of her strong Alliance feelings is another retcon given how the Horde fucked off from Quel'thalas because they weren't getting anywhere.

I don't recall Gruul ever being considered a hero of the Alliance and a marquee Alliance in WC2: TD, I think I'll have to go back and re-play it. I don't recall Gruul even being a character, and that seems like a huge lore concern. I do remember Alleria being an Alliance hero, but maybe that's a fever dream brought on by following odd chains of logic laced with directionless sarcasm too often.

And Stormwind's fancies reflect on Alleria how? They weren't even particularly involved in the whole Sons of Lothar thing, having been almost decimated at the time and then busy with rebuilding their city. And again, Khadgar. He also has a statue there. Yet, he works with the Horde all the time, even against the orders of his queen. So Stormwind considering quite clearly matters squat.

So when the city was being rebuilt at the end of the Second War, the survivors and returning refugees of that war along with their leaders decide to erect immense stone statues of who they view as heroes of said war - and that means absolutely nothing? Sounds reasonable.

And the reason we're not seeing it is because she randomly stopped asking questions because of Sylvanas leading the Horde. Because her deep Thalassian Alliance patriotism () made her so appalled that she instantly stopped caring about her people and her sibling (even though those were the exact reasons she raged against the Orcs in the first place and why she became an Alliance "patriot").

Or it's data-mined PTR dialogue and some of it may be missing or unfinished. There seemed to be an odd jump/cut in the conversation to me, possibly indicating there is more to it (like a minor in-game cutscene or recap of events) not currently present in the data. Difficult to say until we see something closer to the final product.

And what exactly would be partisan about Sylvanas' description of the Scourge invasion and the following events? Scourge invaded, Arthas decided to wipe out the Blood Elves because Sylvanas' persistence pissed him off, he raised her, she rebelled, she was forced to join the Horde despite her dislike of Orcs, because they were the only ones who accepted Forsaken reaching out, she then helped Blood Elves join the Horde, which they accepted because the Alliance was sabotaging their remaining defenses. Later on Alliance started a war. Those are all facts of the lore.

And in that retelling she would probably put more of a spotlight on the Alliance's failure to stop or respond to Arthas, their failures to protect Quel'thalas, etc. etc. Partisanship doesn't require complete dishonesty, as I'm sure you're well aware - it is less about upfront deceit and more about the portrayal of the truth while omitting certain factors (like, for example, Arthas the Death Knight operating at the behest of an Orcish spirit in the form of Ner'zhul). Details that weren't known then but are certainly known now - and a detail that might color Alleria's take on the Horde. That's just one example of how the above narrative could be spun to put a favorable light on the current Horde and a negative one on the Alliance. Vereesa, of course, is going to do much the same except tilted to the Alliance - excusing their many mistakes and missteps while demonizing the Horde and ensuring the the Old/New Horde split is minimized. You and I both know how the game is played.

[Magnagarde]

How about we put an end to the olympics of twisting the storyline in favour of personal flavour and check out how Blizzard defines the character's own feelings about the situation?


Arator the Redeemer: No doubt my mother will soon ask about Sylvanas. What are you going to tell her?
Vereesa Windrunner: It is a conversation I know we must have, but the thought of it fills me with dread. How can I explain to Alleria what our sister has become? The truth will break her heart.

Alleria Windrunner: I must know, Vereesa. What fate befell our sister?
Vereesa Windrunner: Give me a moment. I will do my best to explain...
Alleria Windrunner: Impossible! I refuse to believe she now leads the Horde. Not after all they did to our people during the war.

[pateuvasiliu]

Given how the farmers in the region formed a militia against the Forsaken, where's your source for the ones that have been captured being innocent?




Wat.




Are you people seriously still using Sylvanas sarcastically shit talking to Garrosh as any real argument?

HOW DARE THEY DEFEND THEIR LANDS. Perish the thought!

Wat.

Undeath twists the soul, more news at 11.

Are you people seriously still using Sylvanas sarcastically shit talking to Garrosh as any real argument?

???

She had no real argument for what she was doing.

[Deleted]

HOW DARE THEY DEFEND THEIR LANDS. Perish the thought!

"I hail from Westfall, far to the south... as do these men that travel with me. We are farmers, and nothing more.

I had been told that Lordaeron had been healed, and that it was ready for tilling. However, this "Commander" now tells me that it's too dangerous to proceed. He says that there's a war going on, and that the plaguelands still aren't healed.

Before anything else, I need to get some food in my men's stomachs. Anything will do. Bear seems to be plentiful.

---//--//---

I told Commander Valorfist that we could hold our own, and we intend to. I had a little conversation with the death knight general, Thassarian, on my way over here. We farmers plan to help in our own way.

We will take control of this farm, begin to cultivate the land... and then when the battle for Andorhal commences, we will attack the Forsaken from the rear. They'll never expect it.

First, we need to get rid of these Forsaken outriders. Kill some, then return to me."

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Thurman_Grant


Hardly their lands.

[pateuvasiliu]

"I hail from Westfall, far to the south... as do these men that travel with me. We are farmers, and nothing more.

I had been told that Lordaeron had been healed, and that it was ready for tilling. However, this "Commander" now tells me that it's too dangerous to proceed. He says that there's a war going on, and that the plaguelands still aren't healed.

Before anything else, I need to get some food in my men's stomachs. Anything will do. Bear seems to be plentiful.

---//--//---

I told Commander Valorfist that we could hold our own, and we intend to. I had a little conversation with the death knight general, Thassarian, on my way over here. We farmers plan to help in our own way.

We will take control of this farm, begin to cultivate the land... and then when the battle for Andorhal commences, we will attack the Forsaken from the rear. They'll never expect it.

First, we need to get rid of these Forsaken outriders. Kill some, then return to me."

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Thurman_Grant


Hardly their lands.

Hillsbrad Fields is pretty far from Andorhal. And Sylvanas was using people as test subjects LONG before Cataclysm. Try Vanilla.

[Deleted]

Hillsbrad Fields is pretty far from Andorhal. And Sylvanas was using people as test subjects LONG before Cataclysm. Try Vanilla.

The only farmers she targetted directly were the Alliance colonists at Andorhal. The Hillsbrad farmers were test subjects of Warden Stillwater, a traitor Forsaken, not of Sylvanas.

[Deleted]

The only farmers she targetted directly were the Alliance colonists at Andorhal. The Hillsbrad farmers were test subjects of Warden Stillwater, a traitor Forsaken, not of Sylvanas.

You're like, 10 years late. sylvanas and the Forsaken has been murdering and experimenting on the Lordaeronians for years. Long before Stormwind sent farmers to Andorhal.

[Koryn123]

I think they're referring to the Scarlet Crusade farmers in Tirisfal Glades. Scarlet Crusade.

Also, BLIZZARD GIVE ME THOSE BLOOD ELF SHOULDERS ALREADY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!! I NEED TO HAVE THAT SUNSTRIDER HIGHGUARD AS MY XMOG!!! (And let blood elf paladins xmog the Blood-Tempered Ranseur polearm onto a 1h weapon)

[Combatbutler]

I think they're referring to the Scarlet Crusade farmers in Tirisfal Glades. Scarlet Crusade.

That doesn't really change a thing, since sylvanas with her own personal Alleria like moment wanted to wipe out all of humanity, for spawning Arthas.

Which once again hammers home how messed up that damn windrunner family is . Bunch of genocidal maniacs, the lot of them.

[Koryn123]

There's also the dwarven test subject in the basement of Brill's inn, but since there aren't (or weren't in Vanilla) any Forsaken strongholds by Khaz Modan, my inference is that the dwarf prisoner was captured from Dun Garok in Hillsbrad, perhaps in the course of the hostilities between Tarren Mill and Southshore, with Dun Garok backing them up, or he just wandered too close to Tirisfal Glades, which he shouldn't have been doing.

Nothing morally wrong with being an enemy combatant, but these test subjects were enemy combatants, so it's not like Sylvanas is traveling to the Care Bear land to capture innocent Care Bears and experiment on people who never did anything to her or her people or work against their interests.

[Deleted]

Well when you look at the dialogue for quests and even with each other.

Tyrande: Insults Thalyssra, then has absolutely no care for the people of Suramar. It's all "Have the Nightborne as meat shields to protect my people."

Liadrin: Doesn't insult Thalyssra. Says the horde should go and help the nightborne because it is the right thing to do.

If I was the new Nightborne leader I know who I would put my weight behind.

Ehh. What's with married elf women and their racism?

I like how that stupid elf bitch thinks she will one day get her bow back from me!! HAHA

Alleria Windrunner: I would have words with you, Huntmaster.
Alleria Windrunner: Vereesa told me you accompanied her on the mission to Niskara. That you risked your own life to rescue me, and prevented her from falling into the inquisitor's trap.
Alleria Windrunner: It is clear you wield Thas'dorah with skill and finesse. You bring honor to the bow and to the memory of those who carried it before you.
Alleria Windrunner: There may come a day when I will have need of my family weapon once again. But for now, at least, I have a different path to follow.
Alleria Windrunner: Hold Thas'dorah proudly, champion. Know that you have proven worthy of it.

Im so tempted to destroy it or just leave it in my bank never to see the light of day just to spite her!

Well we will get rid of it somehow.

Blizzard would be hitting the pipe a litte too hard if they honestly think Horde want to run around and follow Khadgar and CO. for another xpac.

Why? Everyone know Horde players love to follow Alliance races all the time. I mean all the non-orc Horde races are super developed.

Lor'themar Theron and the citizens of Silvermoon finally getting new guard models? Hit me up please.

Can I hope their starting zone will no longer suffer in TBC time after 8.0 hits?

[Zulkhan]

Damn, I never knew Gruul was such an amazing Alliance patriot. Someone should build him a statute at the gates of Stormwind, for he is the lost member of Sons of Lothar.

Seems you forgot Alleria is pretty and gorgeous beauty with natural green eyes, Gruul's one ugly mofo. Ugly mofos do not get statues.

How about we put an end to the olympics of twisting the storyline in favour of personal flavour and check out how Blizzard defines the character's own feelings about the situation?


Arator the Redeemer: No doubt my mother will soon ask about Sylvanas. What are you going to tell her?
Vereesa Windrunner: It is a conversation I know we must have, but the thought of it fills me with dread. How can I explain to Alleria what our sister has become? The truth will break her heart.

Alleria Windrunner: I must know, Vereesa. What fate befell our sister?
Vereesa Windrunner: Give me a moment. I will do my best to explain...
Alleria Windrunner: Impossible! I refuse to believe she now leads the Horde. Not after all they did to our people during the war.

I mean, I literally don't even care about Alleria's supposed allegiances, I just hope that dialogue has more substance than that because, in all seriousness, Vereesa's worries about telling what Sylvanas has become merely leading to her being the Horde boss with no mention whatsoever of the whole fuckery she went through by the time Quel'Thalas was culled and sacked would be a show of utter hilarity.

[Magnagarde]

I mean, I literally don't even care about Alleria's supposed allegiances, I just hope that dialogue has more substance than that because, in all seriousness, Vereesa's worries about telling what Sylvanas has become merely leading to her being the Horde boss with no mention whatsoever of the whole fuckery she went through by the time Quel'Thalas was culled and sacked would be a show of utter hilarity.

It definitely would.

The bigger issue is that we now have the sister of the Horde's undead warchief, who happens to be an Alliance Second War hero, using the void essence obtained from a Naaru(most Alliance characters will surely want to have nothing to do with her once they find this out)... while her other sister is still with the Alliance together with her son, whom she had with the Alliance's supreme commander after Lothar's death. Why can't they just leave an easy conclusion to these elves. It always has to be some soap opera.

[Shibito]

Sooo i wonder everyone is saying ooh turalyon is op he fought the legion for 1k years with the army of light so how can he have fought for 1k years is the time different on argus or?

[Combatbutler]

Sooo i wonder everyone is saying ooh turalyon is op he fought the legion for 1k years with the army of light so how can he have fought for 1k years is the time different on argus or?

They were fighting mostly in the nether and time flows different deep within it, the real interesting question is, who prolongs his life, after all using the light does not grant such longevity.

[Koryn123]

Sooo i wonder everyone is saying ooh turalyon is op he fought the legion for 1k years with the army of light so how can he have fought for 1k years is the time different on argus or?

I think that's because everybody agrees that that's stupid, and only serves as a means for Blizzard to completely change Alleria and Turalyon's previous characterization if they want. I want patriotic Alleria and Alliance-paragon Turalyon. But what we're gonna get is Alleria brainwashed by Vereesa and Turalyon all about teamwork. And Blizzard can make Alleria not care about the blood/high elf schism so they don't have to take her anywhere near it by saying that after 1,000 years, she learned to care more about morals than reality. But hopefully with her doing void stuff, that's not the case. Blizzard is very inconsistent, so we'll see.

And I'm sure Turalyon being the high exarch probably got some boost from X'era to be so long-lived.

[pateuvasiliu]

The only farmers she targetted directly were the Alliance colonists at Andorhal. The Hillsbrad farmers were test subjects of Warden Stillwater, a traitor Forsaken, not of Sylvanas.

The Forsaken have been testing on people since Vanilla my dude. Sylvanas also killed Garithos and his men despite having a deal with them.

I don't know how blind people need to be to not see that she's evil. I mean, it doesn't get more obvious than killing peasants and forcing them into unlife.