Overall, was Survival a failure?

[Twdft]

I have a serious and honest question,
can anyone here play SV without addons "close" to perfection and not on a dummy, but also on a boss with movement etc., without any addon?

The standard UI is absolut shit in displaying buffs/debuffs so pretty much noone is able to play any class close to perfection without soem kind of visualization.

[Deleted]

The standard UI is absolut shit in displaying buffs/debuffs so pretty much noone is able to play any class close to perfection without soem kind of visualization.

MM and BM do just fine. Especialy BM doesn't require anything

[Bepples]

They all played the same, from using the exact same CD on opener, having priority buttons to press until out of mana, and later focus, to using an ability to regen mana/focus when your priority ability was on CD or you were out of mana. Are the abilities named differently? Sure. Do they do a difference in damage, whether damage numbers or being a dot? Sure. Did all 3 Hunter specs go RF>focus spender>focus spender>etc>regen focus? You fucking bet. That's why people say they play the same. Anyone not on a blind crusade can admit that.

You're having to go to older expansions to argue there was a similarity. Like many of your posts, this is a bad argument. Legion was an update on the WoD classes, therefore you must analyse the similarity of the classes in WoD. Otherwise, you might as well be arguing that they had to differentiate Hunter specs in 2016 because they all used Steady Shot/Auto Shot weaving in 2007.

Oh, and even with the shared abilities in MoP like Kill Shot and Rapid Fire, the playstyles were still different at that point. Arguing that they all played the same is a disingenuous exaggeration which could be applied to many other classes in the game.

[threads]

While this is true, I'm pretty disappointed that almost one year since the expansion launched Survival still didn't get any rework on its talents at least. BM and MM got some changes to both PvE and PvP talents, other classes (specially mage) had mid-expansion talent revamps or swapped, yet Survival is almost the same since the beginning. The only big change was the Waylay mechanic, which is pretty minor, and done only because they gave other specs traps, so they had to make Survival traps special in some way.

sounds like the old "we dont want you to play demonology warlock". hopefully been redesigning a range spec for 8.0.

[Eapoe]

sounds like the old "we dont want you to play demonology warlock". hopefully been redesigning a range spec for 8.0.

Unfortunately for the people that want old SV back, I think it will be at least 1 more xpac before they revert SV or make a 4th spec. Blizzard is pretty determined to get people to try and play things they want them to do. Let's face it, while most of the current Hunter community is pretty ticked off about the change, it's not flying and does not have anything close to the backlash that received before the revert (players of Hunters vs playerbase as a whole).
The other downside is even if they did go back to SV being a rdps, I'm not entirely sure it would play like the old sV at all.

[DeicideUH]

sounds like the old "we dont want you to play demonology warlock". hopefully been redesigning a range spec for 8.0.

I don't think they'll revert it. The artifact is already done and will not go away (even if it becomes obsolete after Legion), and they won't redo it if they change the spec.

But indeed, the lack of work on Survival may mean they want less people playing it so they have more freedom to change it. I believe they'll iterate more on it, maybe try something new, like turn it into a melee/ranged hybrid or even make it a tank spec.

For the people that want old Survival back, I think they'll also iterate more on MM, which is another spec that needs some attention.

[Kithelle]

Worst part is that Survival is AWFUL at outdoor fighting/questing.
Pet taunt and Flanking Strike are just not enough to keep aggro when fighting many mobs, so you are forced to fight one or two at a time.

Without Misdirect the survival hunter just takes a huge beating and its defenses are probably the lowest out of all the melee classes.
Not to mention the spec sucks huge b*lls in pvp, again due to its lack of SURVIVAL which is rather ironic.

Yup...leave it to Blizz to have a class called Survival to be totally lacking in survival techniques.

[Eapoe]

Umm how those focus spenders applied the damage they did, and sometimes the amount of focus they used could make all the difference in the world how something would play not sure how this argument helps you?

Your point doesn't change at all considering the differences you mention do not change the simple fact all 3 specs did focus spender>focus spender>focus generator>focus spender>etc. The damage difference of generation difference don't matter in the least. All 3 come down to that exact same playstyle.
Compare that to a Mage or Warlock from my previous examples and you can see the difference between spec homogenization.

[threads]

I don't think they'll revert it. The artifact is already done and will not go away (even if it becomes obsolete after Legion), and they won't redo it if they change the spec.

But indeed, the lack of work on Survival may mean they want less people playing it so they have more freedom to change it. I believe they'll iterate more on it, maybe try something new, like turn it into a melee/ranged hybrid or even make it a tank spec.

For the people that want old Survival back, I think they'll also iterate more on MM, which is another spec that needs some attention.

nah MM is just a lame spec tbh. who starts up WoW and says "man i really want to be a guy that can aim good" lol. need to go back to cool ass archers shooting poison and fire and magic arrows.

artifact doesn't really matter they already screwed all the old sv hunters by putting their bow in their bags and mailing them a pole.

[Eapoe]

Yup...leave it to Blizz to have a class called Survival to be totally lacking in survival techniques.

Actually, SV has slightly higher survival to it than MM or BM they the on use heal of RS, Exhilaration, and a multitude of traps. In PVP, some of your traps increase your survivability more thru people moving slower and slower attack speed.
Last season, I think, a SV Hunter was rated higher in arena than MM or BM.
SV also plays differently in world content, but exactly how many mobs are you wanting to pull? If you want to pull 4+ elites running around on the Broken Shore solo, or do the rare Elites solo, yeah, you'd more than likely to BM and MD everything to your pet. SV you'll pull 2-3 and have no real issue with correct usage of pet taunt, FS, and FD. MM running LW, you'll probably only pull 1, maybe 2 with high ilvl. Without LW, you'll pull 2-3, just like SV, and be ready to Rez your pet as it doesn't get the same benefits as BM with reduced damage taken during MD usage.

[Kithelle]

Actually, SV has slightly higher survival to it than MM or BM they the on use heal of RS, Exhilaration, and a multitude of traps. In PVP, some of your traps increase your survivability more thru people moving slower and slower attack speed.
Last season, I think, a SV Hunter was rated higher in arena than MM or BM.
SV also plays differently in world content, but exactly how many mobs are you wanting to pull? If you want to pull 4+ elites running around on the Broken Shore solo, or do the rare Elites solo, yeah, you'd more than likely to BM and MD everything to your pet. SV you'll pull 2-3 and have no real issue with correct usage of pet taunt, FS, and FD. MM running LW, you'll probably only pull 1, maybe 2 with high ilvl. Without LW, you'll pull 2-3, just like SV, and be ready to Rez your pet as it doesn't get the same benefits as BM with reduced damage taken during MD usage.

You're giving Survival way to much credit...they don't have much more survival than the other two specs...you can't use your aoe or else you'll grab agro from your pet...the mastery is pretty worthless. Like you've already said...the pet doesn't have near the survival

It has a bunch of completely useless talents...took them half the expansion to finally make the basic ability worth using.

Don't get me wrong...I enjoy melee which is why I play SV...but it was a terrible made spec...feels rushed even near the end of the expansion.

[Dadwen]

Your point doesn't change at all considering the differences you mention do not change the simple fact all 3 specs did focus spender>focus spender>focus generator>focus spender>etc. The damage difference of generation difference don't matter in the least. All 3 come down to that exact same playstyle.
Compare that to a Mage or Warlock from my previous examples and you can see the difference between spec homogenization.

Nope my point still stands and no it was not the same play-style I tried all three and didn't like MM but loved SV, and how it used those focuses spenders made all the difference in the world. *they may have had the same (or more closely the rotation of when those functions came up) but how they did the damage, they amount and time it took to do the damage change it by quite a bit.

you seem to be this rabid OH GOD THEY PLAYED THE SAME because they may have hit some buttons and a couple of spells at the same time.... but that was not the case with all of it, and seems people that really played it and just didn't dabble knows the difference.

[Eapoe]

You're giving Survival way to much credit...they don't have much more survival than the other two specs...you can't use your aoe or else you'll grab agro from your pet...the mastery is pretty worthless. Like you've already said...the pet doesn't have near the survival

It has a bunch of completely useless talents...took them half the expansion to finally make the basic ability worth using.

Don't get me wrong...I enjoy melee which is why I play SV...but it was a terrible made spec...feels rushed even near the end of the expansion.

I'm not giving it more credit than it deserves. I've played all 3 specs, and I know what they can do. SV has less survivability than BM in open world due to the pet being able to tank many more things than the other 2 specs. MM has less survivability than both specs if running LW, and the same as SV if using a pet. Keeping 2-3 elite mobs as SV on Broken Shore isn't as dangerous as people make it out to be with proper ability usage.
With instances PVP, it actually has more survivability than the other 2 specs, maybe with the exception of team fights in arena. LDr

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Nope my point still stands and no it was not the same play-style I tried all three and didn't like MM but loved SV, and how it used those focuses spenders made all the difference in the world. *they may have had the same (or more closely the rotation of when those functions came up) but how they did the damage, they amount and time it took to do the damage change it by quite a bit.

you seem to be this rabid OH GOD THEY PLAYED THE SAME because they may have hit some buttons and a couple of spells at the same time.... but that was not the case with all of it, and seems people that really played it and just didn't dabble knows the difference.

You just killed your own point with your very first sentence. You disregard the fact that they all play the same and try to say that, to you, they play different because how the abilities make you feel. That's an opinion on what abilities you like better. Believe me, I get it, I liked the them of SV much more than MM and BM, but that doesn't change they all play focus spender>focus spender>focus generator>rinse/repeat.
I'm not saying they hit the same buttons at the same time, I've even said there's a different amount of buttons between specs meaning I couldn't be saying that, but as I've stated many times already, they all play focus spender>focus spender>focus generator>rinse/repeat. They all played with that exact same playstyle.
I understand you can't admit that to yourself, and having opinions of which spec you like because of the theme is entirely valid; but, that doesn't change all 3 specs used that exact same setup to play.

[DeicideUH]

Actually, SV has slightly higher survival to it than MM or BM they the on use heal of RS, Exhilaration, and a multitude of traps. In PVP, some of your traps increase your survivability more thru people moving slower and slower attack speed.
Last season, I think, a SV Hunter was rated higher in arena than MM or BM.

SV has slightly more "survival" than MM or BM only by comparing defensive skills directly, but then ranged Hunter's defenses are weak compared to other ranged, and when you remember that Survival is melee, you realise its defenses are completely gimped. It gets destroyed by other melee in most situations. And it can also get defeated by any ranged that has some mobility, as your only real gap closer is Harpoon and it has a 20 seconds CD.

It lacks on-demand burst (Mongoose Fury is a pain to stack in PvP, and you can be cc'ed and lose most of the timer)
It lacks mobility (a warrior, for instance, can charge twice, then leap. Survival pretty much is tied to Harpoon's CD)
It lacks good defensive CDs (Aspect of the Turtle does not allow you to attack, does not heal you, does not remove slowing effects, it essentially slows down your death and lets you pray someone saves you in the mean time).
It lacks an instant stun like most other melee have.

Survival without a healer can't do much.

[Eapoe]

SV has slightly more "survival" than MM or BM only by comparing defensive skills directly, but then ranged Hunter's defenses are weak compared to other ranged, and when you remember that Survival is melee, you realise its defenses are completely gimped. It gets destroyed by other melee in most situations. And it can also get defeated by any ranged that has some mobility, as your only real gap closer is Harpoon and it has a 20 seconds CD.

It lacks on-demand burst (Mongoose Fury is a pain to stack in PvP, and you can be cc'ed and lose most of the timer)
It lacks mobility (a warrior, for instance, can charge twice, then leap. Survival pretty much is tied to Harpoon's CD)
It lacks good defensive CDs (Aspect of the Turtle does not allow you to attack, does not heal you, does not remove slowing effects, it essentially slows down your death and lets you pray someone saves you in the mean time).
It lacks an instant stun like most other melee have.

Survival without a healer can't do much.

Any Hunter without a healer can't do much. The point is that someone stated SV doesn't have survivability, which is absolutely wrong.
As stated previously, the highest ranked Hunter last season also played SV (towards the end of the season, not sure how it actually ended), which says a lot about how it can play in arena. The previous point still stands, whether being lackluster compared to other melee or even range classes, it still has more survivability than people give it credit for.
As far as world PVE goes, I've stated it has less than BM but equal to MM without LW, and better than MM with LW. If you add on specific legendaries, it actually has just as much if not equal to BM; but, we aren't talking about legendaries, so I won't delve into that territory.

[Improtaight]

the idea of survival was GREAT.
having 2 ranged specs sux, u need diversity, it would be better if it would be a nice tank or something, but its good enough for nwo.

the execution, gameplay wise, is just god damn awful.
at some point mongoose takes over, and its way too many buttons, or the same button all at once, the gameplay is a mess!

[Kithelle]

I'm not giving it more credit than it deserves. I've played all 3 specs, and I know what they can do. SV has less survivability than BM in open world due to the pet being able to tank many more things than the other 2 specs. MM has less survivability than both specs if running LW, and the same as SV if using a pet. Keeping 2-3 elite mobs as SV on Broken Shore isn't as dangerous as people make it out to be with proper ability usage.
With instances PVP, it actually has more survivability than the other 2 specs, maybe with the exception of team fights in arena. LDr

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You just killed your own point with your very first sentence. You disregard the fact that they all play the same and try to say that, to you, they play different because how the abilities make you feel. That's an opinion on what abilities you like better. Believe me, I get it, I liked the them of SV much more than MM and BM, but that doesn't change they all play focus spender>focus spender>focus generator>rinse/repeat.
I'm not saying they hit the same buttons at the same time, I've even said there's a different amount of buttons between specs meaning I couldn't be saying that, but as I've stated many times already, they all play focus spender>focus spender>focus generator>rinse/repeat. They all played with that exact same playstyle.
I understand you can't admit that to yourself, and having opinions of which spec you like because of the theme is entirely valid; but, that doesn't change all 3 specs used that exact same setup to play.

Except it is less dangerous than MM...if your pet dies then you can not only slow them from range you have multiple escape tools...if your pet dies then you're right in the thick of it taking hits immediately...if you get dazed and fighting a elite cheetah might not even save you...where with ranged with MM you can cheetah before you even take damage and you have posthaste. Plus if you spec black arrow you have even another *oh shit* button.

[Deleted]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zu6tsyJhvA&t=6s

Survival can be adjusted here and there (like every other class) but is totally viable, that people are lazy and cannot play it properly it´s their fault and only showing how used they are to easyness, sorry. Rare and challenging specialization out there these days.

[Eapoe]

Except it is less dangerous than MM...if your pet dies then you can not only slow them from range you have multiple escape tools...if your pet dies then you're right in the thick of it taking hits immediately...if you get dazed and fighting a elite cheetah might not even save you...where with ranged with MM you can cheetah before you even take damage and you have posthaste. Plus if you spec black arrow you have even another *oh shit* button.

But it's not less dangerous, they are on almost equal footing IF MM is not running LW. If they are then SV has the clear advantage over MM in terms of living. If not, it's the same thing where both specs pull roughly 2-3 mobs, total, at a time. Comparing the Broken Shore rare elites, a SV Hunter can also solo every single one of them back to back in a constant stream, where a MM Hunter might be able to do most in that fashion but not have the sustainability thru self healing when needed.
At this point, you're trying to convince me something has less survivability compared to its other 2 specs, which is not entirely true. They both have less than BM, and SV is on equal footing as a MM Hunter without LW, and better than a Hunter with LW.

[Dadwen]

You just killed your own point with your very first sentence. You disregard the fact that they all play the same and try to say that, to you, they play different because how the abilities make you feel. That's an opinion on what abilities you like better. Believe me, I get it, I liked the them of SV much more than MM and BM, but that doesn't change they all play focus spender>focus spender>focus generator>rinse/repeat.
I'm not saying they hit the same buttons at the same time, I've even said there's a different amount of buttons between specs meaning I couldn't be saying that, but as I've stated many times already, they all play focus spender>focus spender>focus generator>rinse/repeat. They all played with that exact same playstyle.
I understand you can't admit that to yourself, and having opinions of which spec you like because of the theme is entirely valid; but, that doesn't change all 3 specs used that exact same setup to play.

"Nope my point still stands and no it was not the same play-style I tried all three and didn't like MM but loved SV, and how it used those focuses spenders made all the difference in the world"

huh? now you're not even trying... how every class used it mana or focus or rage or what have you had a major effect on how they play are you just here trying to make no point? that 'first' statement could cover every class and didn't kill any point.

or are you trying to say every class in the games plays the same?????