Battle for Azeroth Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Ringthane]

Again, Kul Tiras has moved due to the Cataclysm. This effectively means it's going to be wherever they want to it be. And since it moved westwards (because eastwards was more land and I am sure we would have noticed Kul Tiras colliding with the Wetlands) and almost certainly southwards (because northwest of it's previous position iss the Broken Isles and we would have noticed Kul Tiras colliding with the Broken Isles), it has moved TOWARDS Zandalar and Kezan.

Not to mention the Eastern Kingdoms moved quite a bit to the right (at least according to the in-game map) when the Broken Isles showed up.

[Drekmar]

Also ok with that; point in case is, people really act like babies around vashj'ir because of a single bad experience - they somehow seem to think it was the ultimate hell with not a single redeemable quality and more importantly, that it's Z axis problem will always return to underwater zones because the point of a test zone is precisely to redo the things that didn't work in it

Z axis issue is really hindering. Not just that it makes underwater combat unbearable it also ruins aerial combat. (iirc that why it was removed from wotlk)

[zlygork]

Z axis issue is really hindering. Not just that it makes underwater combat unbearable it also ruins aerial combat. (iirc that why it was removed from wotlk)

Yeah, but it can never come back while still having underwater zones like you said.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Was the Broken Isles monotonous? Would Zandalar be monotonous? After all, it's just a island jungle with the troll capital on top of a mountain. Would Kezan be monotonous? How would Kul Tiras be monotonous? It's an island nation with a Venetian-styles capital, pro-Alliance forces, naga, pirates, trolls, Horde remnants from the Second and Third War (presumption), and the potential location for the Prison of N'zoth.

The Broken Isles were a pleasant surprise, but it was heavily retconned. Not that I have a problem with that, I've really enjoyed this expansion so far. My point is, I don't see the islands surrounding Kul'Tiras offering the same possible environmental diversity. Take a look at the zones surrounding the former position of Kul'Tiras : Gilneas, Tol'Barad, Hillsbrad Foothills, Arathi and the Wetlands. I agree that these zones are different from each other (especially Arathi being sunnier), however they still share this same dark green, black, grey, brown colours which make them very similar in terms of atmosphere.

So yes, maybe Kul'Tiras will get the Broken Isles treatment, but I doubt the environment would be as different and refreshing as it is on the Broken Isles. The cultures and stories could be as varied as Blizzard wants them to be, but it would feel odd to find very different atmospheres in that area when we know the regions that surround it. And as Obelisk Kai mentioned, Kul'Tiras has probably moved way down to the South-West anyway...

As for Zandalar, Kezan, etc, I don't think it would feel monotonous... if they work as zones among other zones in an expansion. Zandalar could easily be split into two, fair enough, with a jungle part and a city part, but Kezan? I don't know, many zones revolving around the goblins technology atmosphere could feel old really quick.

Again I'm not trying to say that I'm right and you're wrong, or that anybody for that matter is right or wrong, we don't know anything concrete yet. I'm just expressing my opinion on this, which is that even if Blizzard could somehow surprise us and turn Kul'Tiras into a varied environment with many different islands, I don't think it will happen this way. In my opinion (which is in no-way the absolute truth or whatsoever), Kul'Tiras will be a zone of the next expansion, not the focus of that expansion.

[vertigo12]

I am totally ok with most of that (spare me the going to the past, preferably), but where is this coming from? While I agree it's totally possible I don't see much precedence or evidence pointing towards that other than the broken isles' level scaling and timewalking

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I am sure they learned the simple lesson of "spawn the mobs within striking distance for a character that is standing at the ground level" it's not rocket science

Where I am going? I say heading towards the future. If you can see the only way for WoW to implement a worldwide scaling is to implement it first ofcourse in a conditioned limited zone which exactly is Broken Isles aka Legion. In Legion you get world quest that sends you all across Azeroth relevant or tied to your level or dependent on your quest/scenario. Quest nowadays are instantiated or even scenario driven. If you think you at Dalaran on Legion being sent back to Stormwind on the actual world i.e. with the entire population hanging out near AH then you're wrong when doing Anduin quest.

[Kagdar]

It happened like this thing in 6.2
http://www.wowhead.com/item=127972/s...=1801#comments

We can get those in Legion :
http://www.wowhead.com/item=133544
http://www.wowhead.com/item=139405
http://www.wowhead.com/item=138848

[Fahrad Wagner]

We can get those in Legion :
http://www.wowhead.com/item=133544
http://www.wowhead.com/item=139405
http://www.wowhead.com/item=138848

Nice find! More and more clues accumulating haha.

[Obelisk Kai]

Kael'thas being the prince back then do not make Naga any more relatable to Horde Blood Elves. It's still Kael'thas' own squad of Blood Elves that met them and allied with them. No one in Quel'Thalas knew shit about that. Again, for Horde Blood Elves the Naga are bad business as it is for everyone else. There's no "special bond" to exploit there.



No? Naga tried to exterminate the Darkspear Trolls in two separate occasions, having to escape the first time and kicking their asses the second. Of all playable races they hold the most fresh and intimate bond of bitterness with Naga.



How the heck they would be more relatable to Horde? Because they're misfits or simply ugly? Well, those misfits aren't liked by anyone and outright hated by Trolls, an hatred still rather fresh. With the lack of relatable links, coupled with their known history of willing Old Gold allegiance, no one would be inclined to trust them. On the other hand, Naga have all the means to relate to Night Elves and the bad blood between them is all but trivial considered the recent development with the Shen'dralar.



I called it personal note for a reason. You know, an apparently fruitless attempt to show the separation between feelings and rational arguing.

Zulkhan there are several possibilities here and we have to make several assumptions.

Firstly, ARE we getting new races?

That is the biggest question mark we have right now. There is no guarantee anymore that an expansion must have either a new race or class, not since Warlords of Draenor gave us neither. Now, Warlords overall failure may have scared Blizzard to the point that they feel they have to give us something new and transformative every expansion, but the potential is there that they will feel the expansion enough is fine with the content it offers.

They could, for example, opt to give us a much meatier character creator for our existing characters with sub-races and such. This is extremely possible.

The other alternative is a new class but given that Demon Hunters have just been introduced I don't think they are doing that.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that they are going to give us a new race in this expansion. Let us also assume that this is going to be the South Seas expansion we have all long hoped for, that is not a leap considering the fact we are going to martime Kul Tiras and that the Naga (who live under the sea) are clearly going to be involved.

By selecting the South Seas you are essentially narrowing your field of racial candidates to the following three, Vrykul, Naga and Ogres. These are the three races that could conceivably have a presence in this expansion and therefore be candidates for inclusion in the game's roster.

The Vrykul because they are a seafaring people. While dominant in Northrend, they also have lands in the Broken Shore. It is not inconceivable that this sea-faring race has continued southwards, and that there is an island populated by them that will become the base for playable Vrykul in this expansion.

The Naga because, well, if they are ever going to be playable then the expansion that is built around them would be the logical time to do it.

And the Ogres, because Ogres have been asked for for a very long time, and Ogrezonia (the home of the female Ogres) is likely in the region. While Ogrezonia has been mentioned, it maybe regarded as a joke by Blizzard and not seriously explored (it's based off an episode of Futurama...a one note gag in other words). But, as unlikely as I personally feel it to be, the presence of Ogrezonia offers one final opportunity for Ogres to be playable.

The fourth possibility is someone completely new, but given the experience with the Draenei I don't see this happening.

If they are the candidates, then the answer is Naga. The demand for playable Naga is long standing and while there are issues, I think they are issues Blizzard can overcome. But Naga is the sole answer if Blizzard is introducing a neutral race such as the Pandaren. We do not know if that maybe the case this time.

The Pandaren were designed to be neutral after all, their entire story and ethos revolved around balance and harmony. Blizzard I believe has conflicting feelings on the matter. They didn't want to deny anyone the opportunity to play a Pandaren, and by focusing on one race they really fleshed them out BUT I believe they felt that the neutral Pandaren damaged faction diversity.

So, as we might be on the cusp of new races, are Naga so awesome that Blizzard will again feel they don't want to deny anyone the chance to play as one OR will they introduce Naga for one side but give the other faction another race because they want to double down on the faction divide again?

I can't give you an answer on that one. Personally, I don't like neutral races. It's difficult for me to play a Pandaren because they don't really feel either Horde or Alliance because of their neutrality. I would much prefer an Alliance unique race and a Horde unique race, even if that means the Naga end up on the other faction.

But IF we get new races and IF the new races are faction locked, I believe the Naga should go to the Horde. The Trolls had a struggle with the Naga in the past, that's true. The Trolls also had a much worse time of it with other Trolls. The Troll struggle with the Naga is not fundamental to their being, and they maybe open to a renegade faction offering to help the Horde.

In contrast, the Night Elves see in the Naga everything that nearly destroyed the world. Their rejection of the Naga is probably visceral. Besides, the main reason for Naga joining the Horde would be to provide an intimate, story based connection to the Naga of Nazjatar and the Queen that the Alliance already has via the Night Elves. Tyrande and Azshara have a long standing conflict that is bound to come to the boil. No figure in the Horde has a comparable relationship, and Naga in the Alliance would be superfluous to storytelling needs I believe. This is primarily why I believe the Naga are likelier to be assigned to the Horde rather than the Alliance, should they be added as part of a pair of races.

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Cool story! If you believe that Kul Tiras is in the South Seas then I have a bridge to sell you in Arizona.

You are really resistant to the affirmed story fact that the island has moved because of the Cataclysm. Because it has moved, it can be wherever the hell they want it to be.

More importantly, why do you want the next expansion to be so drab and limited as just Kul Tiras? There is vastly more potential in the south seas including Kul Tiras rather than Kul Tiras alone.

Goblins, pirates, Naga, Old Gods, Kezan, Zandalari, Undermine. So much more exciting.

[Fahrad Wagner]

http://www.wowhead.com/item=140081/a...ndalari-tablet
http://www.wowhead.com/item=133037/z...i-voodoo-totem

Found those! The flavour text is interesting. "The guy claimed he actually got it on Zandalar, shortly before he died from a strange disease."

http://www.wowhead.com/item=141476/k...onus=3466:1472

This one as well could be a hint towards Kezan and pirates.

Again, it could just be random and have nothing to do with what's next in store for us. But Blizzard has been quite good lately at dropping clues like that, or even more subtle ones like the stones and the map leading to that hidden (and hideous!) mount.

[Kagdar]

As for all those saying that Naga can't be a a playable race because both Horde and Alliance hate them i'll just say one thing : DKs' intro.

[vertigo12]

I agreed with you in the first place that it doesn't have to be clustered like it used to be, I was just answering to Myrok by saying it could be a developed clustered Kul'Tiras indeed, as much as it could be something completely different and more vast. As you said, tech now is different, and I'm sure they could find a way to link far away places together in a better way than just portals.




This, this and this again. Kul'Tiras COULD be the CENTER of the new expansion (although I think it would be quite boring) but I'll join Obelisk Kai on this and say it's PART of the upcoming expansion.

I'm sure a lot are fans of Little Nemo and can recall the water tunnel express. Heck they can even implement a quest like that or put it as an integral traveling method. Neemo Dory and even the wall of jelly fish has big chance of beif ingame, if plants vs zombie and battle pets made their way, why it couldn't.

Now is the time to make use of swim mechanics, breathe and wven fatigue in a game changing way not only for simple existance of it but could even be a part of a dungeon/raid mechanics. A battleship naval battle boss like ICC gunship and even using boats and fishing vessels not just a platform or aesthetic purposes but an integral part of quests and or raid/dugeon mechanics.

[Wildberry]

@vertigo12 Sounds like Vashj'ir but worse.

[Hitei]

But IF we get new races and IF the new races are faction locked, I believe the Naga should go to the Horde. The Trolls had a struggle with the Naga in the past, that's true. The Trolls also had a much worse time of it with other Trolls. The Troll struggle with the Naga is not fundamental to their being, and they maybe open to a renegade faction offering to help the Horde.

In contrast, the Night Elves see in the Naga everything that nearly destroyed the world. Their rejection of the Naga is probably visceral. Besides, the main reason for Naga joining the Horde would be to provide an intimate, story based connection to the Naga of Nazjatar and the Queen that the Alliance already has via the Night Elves. Tyrande and Azshara have a long standing conflict that is bound to come to the boil. No figure in the Horde has a comparable relationship, and Naga in the Alliance would be superfluous to storytelling needs I believe. This is primarily why I believe the Naga are likelier to be assigned to the Horde rather than the Alliance, should they be added as part of a pair of races..

Since you didn't read my post I'll just repeat it.

The Trolls had a struggle with the Naga in the past, that's true. The Trolls also had a much worse time of it with other Trolls. The Troll struggle with the Naga is not fundamental to their being, and they maybe open to a renegade faction offering to help the Horde.

Incorrect. It was not a "struggle" it was the Naga trying to wipe their tribe off the face of the planet--not once but twice, and killing their chieftain. It is very, very fundamental to their being as Darkspear trolls. The Naga are literally their biggest enemy, akin to the Tauren and centaur.

In contrast, the Night Elves see in the Naga everything that nearly destroyed the world. Their rejection of the Naga is probably visceral.

Completely incorrect. The Night Elves have already forgiven the Highborne (and again, I'll repeat this, the Shen'dralar, Azshara's handpicked, most valued mages who were trusted with her most important and secret projects and tomes. Literally the people most responsible for the Sundering and War of the Ancients alongside Azshara). There is no reason why a rebel group of Naga would not be allowed in if the Shen'dralar were.

Besides, the main reason for Naga joining the Horde would be to provide an intimate, story based connection to the Naga of Nazjatar and the Queen that the Alliance already has via the Night Elves. Tyrande and Azshara have a long standing conflict that is bound to come to the boil.

Incorrect, as you yourself pointed out and I have reinforced above, the faction with the single greatest fued against the Naga are the Darkspear Trolls.

And as mentioned in the other post, the Night Elves have a connection to Naga that the Horde do not. The Night Elves are fathers and mothers and grandparents and uncles and aunts to living Naga (Among the first generation Naga and older blood elves, they are probably brothers, sisters, and lovers as well). They share bloodlines, they shared an entire culture, a religion, cities, everything. If Naga are going to one faction, the clear choice is Alliance.

[zlygork]

Where I am going? I say heading towards the future. If you can see the only way for WoW to implement a worldwide scaling is to implement it first ofcourse in a conditioned limited zone which exactly is Broken Isles aka Legion. In Legion you get world quest that sends you all across Azeroth relevant or tied to your level or dependent on your quest/scenario. Quest nowadays are instantiated or even scenario driven. If you think you at Dalaran on Legion being sent back to Stormwind on the actual world i.e. with the entire population hanging out near AH then you're wrong when doing Anduin quest.

Of course, that makes sense. I just felt like you were talking with some powerful conviction that the next expansion would be mainly about revisiting the old world.

[Syegfryed]

If they are the candidates, then the answer is Naga. The demand for playable Naga is long standing and while there are issues, I think they are issues Blizzard can overcome. But Naga is the sole answer if Blizzard is introducing a neutral race such as the Pandaren. We do not know if that maybe the case this time.

i would love play naga, but again, you tly think they are more asked than ogres? and for the horde?

if we are talking about who can be easier to put in the game, is of course ogres, Less work, lore almost all ready and Guaranteed place in he horde letting the devs to work on other things and on a alliance race

They match perfectly well with vrykuls on the other faction, letting then more diverse

Also, after the n'zoth and ashara treat is over, the nagas could be plyable in the future with some other race like the arakkoa, i don't know, thats why i said the nagas have to wait their turn

But IF we get new races and IF the new races are faction locked, I believe the Naga should go to the Horde. The Trolls had a struggle with the Naga in the past, that's true. The Trolls also had a much worse time of it with other Trolls. The Troll struggle with the Naga is not fundamental to their being, and they maybe open to a renegade faction offering to help the Horde.
.

if troll can overcome their hatred about nagas ( something not old, they almost wiped the trolls and even kill their great chieftain, the vol'jin father) why the night elves can't? its like a millennia since they become naga

If nagas are going to be playable, they could go to alliance and ogres to horde, still is a win/win scenario

[In Ogres We Trust]

The Broken Isles were a pleasant surprise, but it was heavily retconned. Not that I have a problem with that, I've really enjoyed this expansion so far. My point is, I don't see the islands surrounding Kul'Tiras offering the same possible environmental diversity. Take a look at the zones surrounding the former position of Kul'Tiras : Gilneas, Tol'Barad, Hillsbrad Foothills, Arathi and the Wetlands. I agree that these zones are different from each other (especially Arathi being sunnier), however they still share this same dark green, black, grey, brown colours which make them very similar in terms of atmosphere.

So yes, maybe Kul'Tiras will get the Broken Isles treatment, but I doubt the environment would be as different and refreshing as it is on the Broken Isles. The cultures and stories could be as varied as Blizzard wants them to be, but it would feel odd to find very different atmospheres in that area when we know the regions that surround it. And as Obelisk Kai mentioned, Kul'Tiras has probably moved way down to the South-West anyway...

As for Zandalar, Kezan, etc, I don't think it would feel monotonous... if they work as zones among other zones in an expansion. Zandalar could easily be split into two, fair enough, with a jungle part and a city part, but Kezan? I don't know, many zones revolving around the goblins technology atmosphere could feel old really quick.

Again I'm not trying to say that I'm right and you're wrong, or that anybody for that matter is right or wrong, we don't know anything concrete yet. I'm just expressing my opinion on this, which is that even if Blizzard could somehow surprise us and turn Kul'Tiras into a varied environment with many different islands, I don't think it will happen this way. In my opinion (which is in no-way the absolute truth or whatsoever), Kul'Tiras will be a zone of the next expansion, not the focus of that expansion.

Fair enough.

[vertigo12]

Of course, that makes sense. I just felt like you were talking with some powerful conviction that the next expansion would be mainly about revisiting the old world.

It has always been. Low level quest send you from this town to the other. They send you to one capital city to the next. Thy send to one neighboring zone and back and then to a dungeon or raid only to revisit it in the future. WoW is warcrafts Mythology and history on a present level, you get to experience and encounter them on a personal and current condition. You get to see Neltharion, the Pantheon, Illidan, t'was merely a setback Kael'thas, the almost ever immortal repetitve encounte with Onyxia, Guldan, Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. You get to relive the past is the other side ofthe story, Illidan's and his Illidari. We can somehow see the past when Illidan sided with the Nagas and Nightelves. We can somehow see what happened to the then defeated Lady Vashj who what might we know might be an ally in the future for this coming expansion leading a renedage Nagas.

[zlygork]

It has always been. Low level quest send you from this town to the other. They send you to one capital city to the next. Thy send to one neighboring zone and back and then to a dungeon or raid only to revisit it in the future. WoW is warcrafts Mythology and history on a present level, you get to experience and encounter them on a personal and current condition. You get to see Neltharion, the Pantheon, Illidan, t'was merely a setback Kael'thas, the almost ever immortal repetitve encounte with Onyxia, Guldan, Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. You get to relive the past is the other side ofthe story, Illidan's and his Illidari. We can somehow see the past when Illidan sided with the Nagas and Nightelves. We can somehow see what happened to the then defeated Lady Vashj who what might we know might be an ally in the future for this coming expansion leading a renedage Nagas.

Huh, ok I guess. I get the impression this isn't really part of our 8.0 conversation.

[De Lupe]

Naga are god damn boring though :/

That's what I've spent the entirety of this expansion saying...about The Legion.

[Zulkhan]

snip

Well, I respect the effort you put in explaining your standpoint given the preciseness you went with and I can see from where you come from.

I still disagree though that a mere renegade faction of Naga pulled from someone's ass will do much to shoehorn a connection between the Horde and Azshara. I'll not say it would be a completely fruitless attempt but is still one I would not trust to give it a try. Nothing can truly change the way bigger relevance that Night Elves would have in the case of an Azshara-centric expansion, a random faction of Nagas we never heard before can hardly compete.

Heck, it would probably be a worthier attempt push Blood Elves on that role, not because of Kael'thas' shenanigans but because they relate to Azshara simlarly to Night Elves. But I would absolutely hate to see another expansion with nothing but elven focus around, with Blood Elves getting once again, for the 4th expansion in a row, getting the spotlight and inevitably serving as forefront race for the Horde. That would drive me insane and I have enough of that.

The only way to avoid that, IMO, is treating Azshara as a side villain of sort, not a central one. Important, sure, but still not the main threat. Only elves have a reason to care about her, for anyone else would just be dealing with another big bad. That's why I would prefer for the Horde to be focused on something else, with Azshara meddling with Night Elves and by extent the Alliance (for whatever reason) and the Horde maybe occupied with Zul and various Zandalar shenanigans, which would beautifully connect to Trolls and maybe even hook up with the "yet to end" Vol'jin storyline (which, conversely, the Alliance cannot really relate with). You would create a "forked" story that would ultimately lead on the same destination, which is totally feasible since you can have dungeons and raids shared by both factions, regardless of the story played in the outdoor zones.

This does not solve the issue of the Horde race and in the end it doesn't really matter, you could pick anything at that point (I wouldn't mind Ogres for sure) but doing this way you have no need to shoehorn a connection with Azshara, since the Horde would have its own issues to deal with Azshara remaining a more Alliance-related issue (not in the sense that it wouldn't threaten the Horde, just that her lore, story and involvement would be way closer to the Alliance in basically all instances).