Tomb of Sargeras Progression Thread

[Deleted]

The WF was 3 months before ruby sanctum though, because of the limited attempts.

and gating!!!!

[tratra]

Enough with that mathematically impossible meme its old and has been around forever. KJ is overtuned but not mathematically impossible that's being ignorant. Heroic Lich King 25 man with out the buff was nigh impossible when he became available.

Hehe, a thing that most people here won't really know about.

Kel'Thuzad on naxx40 became impossible due to a bug of him despawning after 1% wipes.

DnT (Death and Taxes US) brought him to 1% 1 week before nihilum did and he despawned... They lost a whole week of progression... 1% progression. Then later on it happend to Nihilum as well, where he despawned at 1%. Nihilum got lucky on the reset and killed it earlier than DnT cause of that bug

Also prince malchezar was impossible due to a bug with infernals and it took blizzard 1 week to fix the bug.

Since then I do believe that they've improved their QA but there always be mistakes and bugs. Don't forget the most recent off by one bug they introduced in Legion with the legendary luck protection at the start.

[Netherblood]

T13 was a bit of a stretch, I thought it took more than 12 days for the first guild to kill Madness.

Either way, I'm going off of the time it takes to clear from the first boss up to the last boss. Depending on when KJ dies, there have been plenty of tiers over the years that were harder than this.

You can't just go by time needed to clear the raid, for example Lorgok from method was recently talking to Affinity in twitch of Alpha's re-stream. Baleroc came up in the conversation and Lorgok pretty much said, imagine if we did as many split runs and class stacked as much back in Firelands as we do now Baleroc enrage wouldn't have been an issue. Affinity agreed saying they did only 3 splits in Firelands, meanwhile guilds do like 7 now.

Maybe they weren't too serious about their conversation, but you need to keep in mind that over the years guilds have been putting more and more effort and becoming more professional in the WF races.

[Seramore]

sorry but I think the argument of "people putting way more effort into raiding and split raids to make it easier today" hardly counts for the comparing the difficulty of raids now compared to then

[Dracodraco]

sorry but I think the argument of "people putting way more effort into raiding and split raids to make it easier today" hardly counts for the comparing the difficulty of raids now compared to then

But how come? If a boss takes the same amount of time NOW with 7 resets worth of gear, as a boss did back then with 3 resets worth of gear, quite clearly the old boss must be tuned to be easier (or players now are worse at the game than they were back then). It's one of those two options.

[Deleted]

Don't know if you can compare tiers this way, raiding and raid prep has become alot more serious since those tiers, i don't think even all these tiers had 16+ hour per day raids till the boss is down for 7 days a week, Also 6-7 split raids werent a thing in all those tiers (if during any at all), not saying that those tiers werent hard, but from my experience atleast in some of those tiers the topguilds prepped and raided alot less before / during those tiers and that makes comparing tiers imho quite hard since the way top guild approach raiding these days is quite different than it was in atleast some of those tiers.

difficult feeling depends on a lot individual circumstances: individual and raid setups skill (distribution of strengths and weaknesses), raid setup (class wise), quality of gear (BiS list system). The individual feeling of difficulty also depends on the functions you had in all the different tiers. Maybe in the Tier 8 content you were the cook-general, while in Tier 9 you was just a tunnel dps.

[Rafoel]

DnT (Death and Taxes US) brought him to 1% 1 week before nihilum did and he despawned... They lost a whole week of progression... 1% progression. Then later on it happend to Nihilum as well, where he despawned at 1%. Nihilum got lucky on the reset and killed it earlier than DnT cause of that bug

It wasn't bug, it was Kungen the Hackerman.

[Mascotte]

Old 'hard' bosses with current day prep (split runs, class stacking, multiple raid ready alts to adjust the comp on the fly etc) would fall over way quicker.
"Back then' you played 1 char, maybe 2 but nothing insane like this.

[Seramore]

But how come? If a boss takes the same amount of time NOW with 7 resets worth of gear, as a boss did back then with 3 resets worth of gear, quite clearly the old boss must be tuned to be easier (or players now are worse at the game than they were back then). It's one of those two options.

Because the raiding game has changed. It's unfair to compare the difficulty of a raid back then when people were trying their hardest to now when people are still trying their hardest, disregarding the more effort people are putting into splits and hours today. Yes, raids would have been easier back then with the effort given today but you can't just simply say "oh, this is harder now because people are doing countless splits and putting in countless hours and are still struggling."

[Netherblood]

Because the raiding game has changed. It's unfair to compare the difficulty of a raid back then when people were trying their hardest to now when people are still trying their hardest, disregarding the more effort people are putting into splits and hours today. Yes, raids would have been easier back then with the effort given today but you can't just simply say "oh, this is harder now because people are doing countless splits and putting in countless hours and are still struggling."

It depends if you are comparing relative difficulty or absolute difficulty. If we are talking about absolute difficulty than ToS is probably one of the hardest raids if not hardest, if we are talking about relative to what player skill and preparation was at the time of the raid release then no ToS is not one of the hardest yet.

[Mascotte]

That completely depends on your definition of hardest tho; so we've gone full cycle.
Is it amount of pulls needed?
Time to kill?
Muru only took 4 days after opening of the second gate, yet many people still consider him a top5 hardest bosses contender.
Old KJ took 5 days from unlocking the gate, so on that front we are barely at the break even point currently.

With all the changes we had, both from players and blizzard (gating, limited attempts, separate difficulty lines etc) its impossible to really make a decent comparison.

[Deleted]

Muru only took 4 days after opening of the second gate, yet many people still consider him a top5 hardest bosses contender.\

Because gating, limited attempts and ridiculous tuning =/= hard. PS. Those 3 things i named are the reason most bosses survived as long as they did.

Muru was ridiculously difficult but it wasn't tuned to the point where you needed to grind gear/valor/AP/whatever endlessly to kill it.

[Deleted]

Because the raiding game has changed. It's unfair to compare the difficulty of a raid back then when people were trying their hardest to now when people are still trying their hardest, disregarding the more effort people are putting into splits and hours today. Yes, raids would have been easier back then with the effort given today but you can't just simply say "oh, this is harder now because people are doing countless splits and putting in countless hours and are still struggling."

The basic idea of all the preparation and split runs is the advantage against the other teams. The tuning of all the bosses is more or less a reaction to this style of gaming.

The fist step over 10-11 years ago in Vanilla was to invent a "7 raid-evenings per week system" - something quite unimaginable for the plebs back in the days. The first time mid-day-time raiding was regularly in use was in Ulduar if I remember correctly. The whole gating/limitied attempt shit later on in WoTLK made "alt-progress-raiding" common.

[arcaneshot]

Some serious double standards going on right there with just Limit taking the hit and Method untouched. The devs must really hate.

Then turn them in.

A lot of people are like "it's so obvious!" but no one wants to be the Narc.

[Nitros14]

M'uru was ridiculously difficult because of tuning. It's not like it was a mechanically complex difficult fight. Targeting a dark fiend and hitting purge and moving away from a dark orb was about the extent of it.

[Sarevokcz]

M'uru was ridiculously difficult because of tuning. It's not like it was a mechanically complex difficult fight. Targeting a dark fiend and hitting purge and moving away from a dark orb was about the extent of it.

lets not forget how damage was extending casters spellcasts back then and how muru especially worked with it and how nightmarish it was for specs, that didnt have good enough cast delay protection...

[goriander]

Literally at no point this entire X-pac have I been in a top guild. yet in the few rare times I have a relevant toon and a handful of connects to people, thats what i made this Xpac in sales. I mean this from the bottom of my heart if you think ANY guild that is not in the top 20 world wasn't doing sales prior to the massive ban wave. You are out of your mind. Even now I STILL guarantee most guilds are, they are just much less upfront about it.


If I showed my MoP/WoD money from selling mythic raids and Cmode boosts. You guys would be disgusted

So you played a video game full time for the sole purpose of making money and still made less in the span of a year than most people earn in a day or two..? Congratulations, I truly am disgusted.

[jce4ever]

So you played a video game full time for the sole purpose of making money and still made less in the span of a year than most people earn in a day or two..? Congratulations, I truly am disgusted.

Most people make $800.00 to $900.00 a day damn.

[Barnabas]

Most people make $800.00 to $900.00 a day damn.

Be careful all the lawyers and doctors might quit their job for wow.

[Deleted]

So you played a video game full time for the sole purpose of making money and still made less in the span of a year than most people earn in a day or two..? Congratulations, I truly am disgusted.

I must be poor, I wish I made $877.92 every 2 days.