Low level dungeons ...

[Aggrophobic]

I don't even know how to respond to how wrong (and stupid) both of those points are.

Stop forcing your bullshit on others. Find people that want to do dungeons your way instead. Doing stuff like the ironman challenge might get you the difficulty you seem to be after.

Low level dungeons are for leveling though, if you want an actual challenge, get to max level and do mythic+ or mythic raids.

[Haywire5714]

Stop forcing your bullshit on others. Find people that want to do dungeons your way instead. Doing stuff like the ironman challenge might get you the difficulty you seem to be after.

Low level dungeons are for leveling though, if you want an actual challenge, get to max level and do mythic+ or mythic raids.

Show me where I said that I wanted difficulty.

[Nikkaszal]

There's major consequences to this, though.

Currently, there's nothing in the 15-100 dungeoning experience that'll give new players any sort of idea what the end-game is truly like. It's so different to pre 4.0/2.3 that I'm willing to bet I learned more in a single pre 2.3 SFK run than a new player will learn in a dozen dungeons. There's no need to learn to respect your party members, there's no need to respect the role-trinity, and most damningly, there's no way to learn your class.

Despite the increase in resources available, I'd argue that the average skill level of an end-game dungeon/entry level raid player is lower now than it was back in TBC, and a big part of that is the complete lack of a learning curve in the leveling process. Dungeons are, by far, the biggest issue here. Hell, I'm leveling new toons with a friend (we're currently in MoP content), and she can tank MoP dungeons as Arms, cuz every pack dies in <5 seconds. How do you learn a caster class in this environment?

(Yeah as someone who has played for nearly 11 years, it's nice to level fast, and for me, personally, how things are now are the ideal - I just wish there were a way to bring back a better & more rewarding learning curve for new players, as I feel it's damaging both them & those they play with once they hit max level).

Proving Grounds.

It's there to teach newer people how to play in an environment that isn't rolled by 4 other people while you auto-follow.

Additionally, seeing as the levelling section is usually WILDLY different to the later game (you only have half your abilities, talents etc) then the newer players will have to learn during Legion stuff too.

Seriously, there are so many tutorial experiences for newer players, and WoW is extremely casual-friendly. There is absolutely no reason to extend the 1-100 process when the overwhelming majority of people are veterans rolling new toons. It's not worth the slog.

[Haywire5714]

Proving Grounds.

It's there to teach newer people how to play in an environment that isn't rolled by 4 other people while you auto-follow.

Additionally, seeing as the levelling section is usually WILDLY different to the later game (you only have half your abilities, talents etc) then the newer players will have to learn during Legion stuff too.

Seriously, there are so many tutorial experiences for newer players, and WoW is extremely casual-friendly. There is absolutely no reason to extend the 1-100 process when the overwhelming majority of people are veterans rolling new toons. It's not worth the slog.

The 1 - 100 process isn't being extended, read the original post.

[dwarfeckiy]

Try going without your heirloom pieces. There is a surprise for you mon

[americandavey]

Again one of these "make everyone do what I want. Because I am lazy to do it myself!" Instead of you not using Heirlooms, finding 4 other people that want to do the same thing as you.

[gaymer77]

As someone who is leveling another toon with a friend of mine on a whole other server than where my mains are at I can speak for doing the lowbie dungeons to level up. I'm doing this as a tank and my friend is my healer so we can plow through dungeons faster and get to max level crap faster. That being said, I tell everyone at the start of the dungeon that I don't stop along the way so we can kill shit. I go from one group to the next and keep picking stuff up until we get to a boss. Its is the responsibility of my DPS in the group to kill stuff along the way. I AOE on CD so I keep agro but my dmg is low compared to my group's DPS dmg. When I have casters in my group I tell them to do the best they can while we make our way to a stop (boss time) and they can catch up on dps. Nobody so far has had a problem with my run of dungeons. In fact, they have enjoyed it. What I'm getting from your post is you're a caster and bitching about not being able to do anything because the tank is moving. Oh well. Suck it up buttercup. You will have your time to do something when you get to a boss which has more HP than the trash does. If you don't have any dots (like an arcane mage) just do your instant cast stuff (like an arcane mage) or stop every few feet and quickly cast something then keep running again. If you're a melee and can't attack and keep up with the tank, that's a problem with YOU and not the way dungeons are. ANY melee can attack on the move. Its what makes them better on high movement fights in raids over casters who have to stop & cast something to dps. This isn't like other games where even melee attacks have a cast time. Melee attacks in WoW are all instant cast. If you can't instant cast melee attack stuff on the move, you suck & shouldn't be playing a melee then.

[Nikkaszal]

The 1 - 100 process isn't being extended, read the original post.

I did, what post are you reading?

OP wants dungeons to take much longer rather than blasting through in under 10min. This is the 1-100 levelling process, because everyone uses dungeons to level unless they PvP.

[Haywire5714]

Losing more faith in humanity every day lol. I can't believe the nonsense that I'm reading. If this is the kind of feedback that most people give, blizzard should never listen to these forums.

[Deleted]

Fuck old dungeons. Fuck them right in the arse.
0,1% of people doing them actually WANTS to be doing them. The other 99,9% are just there for the xp trying to get their new char / alt into legion.
Blizzard seriously needs to stop forcing new people / alts through the pointless leveling system.
New players / alts should be given the option to just start at lvl 100.
Without paying even more on top of expansion fee's and subscription fee's.

[WoWGoneBad]

Hell, I'm leveling new toons with a friend (we're currently in MoP content), and she can tank MoP dungeons as Arms, cuz every pack dies in <5 seconds. How do you learn a caster class in this environment?

This is my biggest problem with my mage/lock/priest when farming dungeons. I hop in and by the time I am ready to start casting everything is dead. So I just run through as best I can and tab target and dot EVERYTHING so that I can feel like I am doing SOMETHING......

So I just decided that I will just take my lvling experience out into the real world. I just run quests and wait until I hit 110 and by then I will have some idea on how to cast and a beginner idea of rotation.

It sucks that today a Tank and healer can pretty much solo dungeons and we dps just put on auto-follow and go have a bite to eat or grab a smoke. Come back get loot rinse repeat.

It does get a bit better in the 60+ dungeons for at least doing bosses, but forget it for trash.

- - - Updated - - -

I think that most here are missing the OPs point. It is not that he wants longer or challenging dungeons... he just wants to be able to USE his toons abilities in dungeons.

Taking off your heirlooms will not fix that since the other players are using theirs. Yea dungeons 10-100 or so are old content and useless to about 75-85% of the player base, but it is just boring to auto-follow... eat, smoke..... check the tank/heals progress..... check your FB come back and repeat.

The truth is that there is NO WAY to fix this and the OP needs to come to terms with that, or try to find like minded people and run dungeons with them for those levels. Other than that.... the only real way to use your abilities and be productive is to do world quests outside of dungeons.

[Haywire5714]

The truth is that there is NO WAY to fix this and the OP needs to come to terms with that, or try to find like minded people and run dungeons with them for those levels. Other than that.... the only real way to use your abilities and be productive is to do world quests outside of dungeons.

Okay if you believe this, then tell me how what I proposed in the original post won't fix this.

Also the 10 - 100 content are not useless to 75 - 85% of the playerbase. You can still do them and enjoy doing them regardless of how many times you've run them in the past. The problem is that they keep getting less enjoyable every expansion because of inflation.

[Aggrophobic]

Show me where I said that I wanted difficulty.

Right, 400% more HP then.
That would make the dungeons take an hours to complete. No thanks. Sounds like a horrible idea.

[Haywire5714]

Right, 400% more HP then.
That would make the dungeons take an hours to complete. No thanks. Sounds like a horrible idea.

The number doesn't matter that's why I put a question mark beside it, it's blizzard job to find the right number to use. The goal is to make the dungeons last a reasonable amount of time so that everyone can contribute. It seems clear that the only thing your mind has been able to piece together so far is "longer dungeon = bad". If you're unwilling take anything else that I've said in this thread (and the original post) into account then just stop posting. Literally all of your posts so far have been irrational nonsense.

[Aggrophobic]

The number doesn't matter that's why I put a question mark beside it, it's blizzard job to find the right number to use. The goal is to make the dungeons last a reasonable amount of time so that everyone can contribute. It seems clear that the only thing your mind has been able to piece together so far is "longer dungeon = bad". If you're unwilling take anything else that I've said in this thread (and the original post) into account then just stop posting. Literally all of your posts so far have been irrational nonsense.

Yes, shorter dungeons would be better at lower levels.
If I want to level, I want it to go faster, not slower. The actual game starts at max level, like it always has.

Your suggestions that making dungeons take more time would mean a better game are silly and bad for the game. There are way for you to make sure that dungeons do take longer without making the experience horrible for others. Play without hairlooms, use less gear and so on but not all players want that.

[Toybox]

Proving Grounds.

It's there to teach newer people how to play in an environment that isn't rolled by 4 other people while you auto-follow.

Additionally, seeing as the levelling section is usually WILDLY different to the later game (you only have half your abilities, talents etc) then the newer players will have to learn during Legion stuff too.

Seriously, there are so many tutorial experiences for newer players, and WoW is extremely casual-friendly. There is absolutely no reason to extend the 1-100 process when the overwhelming majority of people are veterans rolling new toons. It's not worth the slog.

I'd be surprised if more than 20% of the people who started the game during Legion even know the Proving Grounds exist.

The issue is with these tutorial experiences is that they're either poorly demonstrated/implemented (proving grounds), or take place entirely out of the game (guides/videos). It's like if the first half of Dark Souls could be mindlessly swung through, and when you got to O&S, you wouldn't be at all equipped to deal with it, only to be told "You should probably watch a video on that." - Nah, the game itself should give you the tools needed to be able to defeat everything except the mid/top tier encounters.

My solution is a more drastic one, that'll probably hated by the majority - Gear/skill segregation at all character levels. If I'm on my lowbie healer I'm currently leveling with another experienced friend, then yeah, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to stomp it. On the flipside, if we get to 110 & manage to get ourselves 820 gear, I'd NOT want to queue into ToS HC/M geared players, because really, what do I learn from that? & I don't wanna take freshly dinged players on my 5/9M Druid when doing the daily HC, either. As for playing with friends, just take an average of their iLvl/accomplishments, and stick them somewhere in the middle.

Would do away with carrying in both the leveling & endgame content, give people more of a platform to learn their class a lil bit better, and watch their power grow with people of relative skill/gear levels.

[Deleted]

Low level dungeons are basically locked into LFR mode. They exist to be run through once for the story but not to be played like instances. Most of the longer dungeon crawler instances that would take a whole afternoon are basically irrelevant as they were max level at the time and you just jump to the next expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

The issue is with these tutorial experiences is that they're either poorly demonstrated/implemented (proving grounds), or take place entirely out of the game (guides/videos). It's like if the first half of Dark Souls could be mindlessly swung through, and when you got to O&S, you wouldn't be at all equipped to deal with it, only to be told "You should probably watch a video on that." - Nah, the game itself should give you the tools needed to be able to defeat everything except the mid/top tier encounters.

That's great and all, but it is ignoring the main audience of WoW. There are very few new players compared to existing and long term players, or players that have had a break and come back. Your point would be completely valid if WoW was a new game, but it's not, it's a game that 90% (made up statistic) of it's subs payers are long term players. They don't need to be taught how to play. Anyone new at this point is likely to be introduced to the game by an existing player, who will generally show their friend the ropes (make a character on this server, here's some gold, here's some bags, want a boost through deadmines? etc.)

[ItsTiddles]

But you spend an hour in the dungeon regardless because you'll end up queing for it 2 or 3+ times.

Personally, I don't. I queue most dungeons once for the quests then blast through quest zones. For me, it's more efficient. Non-stop moving and leveling is the only way I can handle the leveling process after leveling 1-100 7 times and 1-110 5 times. I know this doesn't isn't how everyone prefers to level, but I'm sure I'm not alone in it.

There's major consequences to this, though.

Currently, there's nothing in the 15-100 dungeoning experience that'll give new players any sort of idea what the end-game is truly like. It's so different to pre 4.0/2.3 that I'm willing to bet I learned more in a single pre 2.3 SFK run than a new player will learn in a dozen dungeons. There's no need to learn to respect your party members, there's no need to respect the role-trinity, and most damningly, there's no way to learn your class.

Despite the increase in resources available, I'd argue that the average skill level of an end-game dungeon/entry level raid player is lower now than it was back in TBC, and a big part of that is the complete lack of a learning curve in the leveling process. Dungeons are, by far, the biggest issue here. Hell, I'm leveling new toons with a friend (we're currently in MoP content), and she can tank MoP dungeons as Arms, cuz every pack dies in <5 seconds. How do you learn a caster class in this environment?

The number doesn't matter that's why I put a question mark beside it, it's blizzard job to find the right number to use. The goal is to make the dungeons last a reasonable amount of time so that everyone can contribute.

The major flaw I see with this is how Blizzard would determine the correct hp% and xp%. Who do they cater to? The newer players who are learning their class? The veterans who are leveling more alts? If you cater to the new players, odds are the full heirloom alts will still blast through it. If you cater to the veterans, new players in green/blue gear have a chance of finding it too time consuming and lose interest or not be able to finish it. 2m+ boss fights without much to do are mind numbing in 5m content and only increasing the health wont change that for plenty of people. Also, putting it off as Blizzard's job, how do you know you will think that's enough? There's no telling if Blizzard went with a change like this that you will be happy with the choices they make.

[Linri]

the old dungeons are kinda fun but have been streamlined so as to "not get lost" remember old wailing caverns ?

[Puri]

I agree that increasing the health of mobs in low level instances would indeed improve the leveling experience.
As a caster you literally run after the tank and hope you have instant casts with high instant damage. That leads to very strange spec choices, for example shadow is completely pointless since they removed original mind sear, if you want to contribute any damage to the runs you have to switch to holy when you get holy nova with 26.
The player damage/mob health ratio is completely out of control in the low level areas. Sure heirlooms do their part, but even without them you twoshot any level appropriate outdoor mob.

On the other hand: Why care? Quicker dungeons also mean quicker leveling. I go sticky on the healer or just go around collecting loot if there is nothing I can do.