The "Rush Mentality" of WoW needs to die.

[Lochton]

Yes, this is all new and not something that's been around since WOTLK. Actually it is. And look, we're still fine by some freak accident.

We're only fine due to Blizzard gating things.

[HuxNeva]

No, they could not. No one likes a level 40 tank with level 15 greens and empty slots.

Well, if it doesn't take any longer to lvl, I might have more fun in that challenge than in boring zergs.

[Reyuna]

I remember back in Vanilla i'd literally just spend a weekend leveling a character in Stranglethorn Vale, constantly peeling off to do some PvP in the zone, heading back to Booty Bay, looking for people to tackle some of the harder quests with. It was fun, no one was in this million mile an hour rush that is the game now. To be a Mythic raider and pretend you can just take things casually is not an option.

[Andromedes]

Nice copy paste from US forums.

[Deleted]

The irony of (in?) this thread is the OP's account name.

[Kyanion]

Why do you think this is a new thing? Ppl have been chaingpulling and going as fast as they can since WotLK. It also happened in TBC if you ever did 5mans / t4 raids with t6 geared ppl.

Hell it was even happening in parts of Vanilla, like when they introduced skillbooks and had people that were clearing raids going back to UBRS to get rogue books. That place was a slaughter, it carried over into speed strat clears and so on. The further along Vanilla got the most go-go-go it was becoming. I think it cooled off a little bit in TBC because of heroic dungeons being a thing but as you said in late TBC it became more likely a dungeon run was going to be going all out with speed pulling and ignoring much if not all CCing.

[Alphatorg]

There's a major flaw in the argument of the "pro rushing" crowd that makes their viewpoint invalid. Ultimately, the issue isn't the mere time spent on a particular activity, even if they act as if it was ("why would I want to spend 60 minutes in a 15 minutes dungeon?"). The real issue is that the game, in surprisingly many areas, has become dysfunctional - you could call it outright broken. A threat is not a threat any longer, basic design and gameplay principles are invalidated, the dos and don'ts are rendered irrelevant, and class roles meaningless and interchangeable.

So to put it in simple terms, the problem isn't that everything's too fast - the problem is that everything's being done wrong and there's no penalty for it, you get away with it nonetheless. There's no finesse in the gameplay. There's little difference and often no consequence in choosing to do something the wrong over the right way.

It's the game's fault. People are generally feeble-minded, lazy and undisciplined. They will naturally gravitate towards the path of the least resistance, which they generally confuse with efficiency. It's the game's job to maintain itself and provide core boundaries for the players to operate and perform within. It's one of the core principles of game design. Or simply put: if your game fails at being a game and you let people play like monkeys, they will generally do so. The number of players who will intrisically refuse to succumb to that are in the minority, just as in a city without laws and law enforcement, it would not last long until the infrastructure would end up run down and ravaged, while only a minority of the citizens would uphold a sense of responsibility on their own.

Your problem is that there is challenging endgame content like m+ and raids or even PVP/Arena if that's your cup of tea, but you apparently rather queue random hc or raid finder and then complain on mmo-champion about lazyness and feeble-minded people (sweet, sweet irony) because that randomized group does not behave the way you would like it to do.

[Kyanion]

The dailies were a bit of a hassle yes, but they did have an end, and every day that passed you got a little bit closer to that end. The AP grinding, the titanforging and the world quests in Legion are very similar to the MOP dailies in that they all feel very tedious having to deal with them all day every day, but the difference is that there is no end in sight. This can, will and has led to massive burnout or extreme apathy towards the whole process. We need tangible finite goals in games like this, not a hamster wheel.

Except...there is an end in sight in Legion grinds. Do you REALLY need to go out and do emissary quests every day? Nope. Do you REALLY need to grind more and more AP after unlocking Concordance of the Legionfall to give it incremental buffs as you pump more AP into it? Not unless you are top of the line mythic raiding I'd wager. Once you unlock that trait you can slow down to your own pace of AP grinding. You don't need to chain run M+ dungeons, grind all world quests you can find and so on. You are doing that to yourself and placing yourself on the hamster wheel.

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We're only fine due to Blizzard gating things.

Yeah and look how pissed people got when they gated a few things in Legion. Can't please everyone and they shouldn't try.

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I remember back in Vanilla i'd literally just spend a weekend leveling a character in Stranglethorn Vale, constantly peeling off to do some PvP in the zone, heading back to Booty Bay, looking for people to tackle some of the harder quests with. It was fun, no one was in this million mile an hour rush that is the game now. To be a Mythic raider and pretend you can just take things casually is not an option.

Whew yeah no. I was in a rush in Vanilla to hit max level and start doing dungeons for gear and moving into raiding. I came from Everquest so I was beyond used to the grind. I didn't take that long in STV and I got in and out as fast as possible.

[Lochton]

Yeah and look how pissed people got when they gated a few things in Legion. Can't please everyone and they shouldn't try.

I like the average gating, it is needed. Don't want a locust swarm to fly through.

[Kyanion]

Nice copy paste from US forums.

Yeah I can only assume that the OP of this thread over here just copied it and is not the creator of the thread on the WoW forums as that would mean they played Legion a little bit.

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I like the average gating, it is needed. Don't want a locust swarm to fly through.

Agreed, I have no real problems with it. At least there was content behind the gating so it was some minor busy work. I'm content with the pace of content in Legion and glad to see we have the next patch in the works already. But if you remember when the Broken Isles 8 weeks quests came out people were pretty pissed off about it. I can only imagine if they actually went back to some of the old Vanilla/TBC methods of time gated grinds/getting keyed for a raid what would happen. The forums would explode.

[Hell-Nicø]

I guess you're right. It's just not a point of view I've ever held. If I go play an mmo I've never played before like BDO or Rift or ESO, I'm not going to care about whats going on lore-wise. I'll be focused on how to get to max level asap, and then if I'm interested I'll go back and take a look at the lore I missed once I get bored of the max level content.

I'm not just talking about the lore here, I'm talking about the gameplay experience you got.
There's NOTHING fun in running after your team while they one shot everything in the dungeon, as there's nothing fun in having yourself level up too fast to finish a quest chain.

[TheVaryag]

The "Rush Mentality" which currently defines WoW's gameplay and the community mindset has led me to the conclusion that this game is on the verge of entering its death throes and I can no longer put up with it.

DPS rushing on ahead and pulling for the tank. Intentionally.
Tanks chain-pulling entire dungeons like complete idiots without a care in the world, then blaming others when things go awry.
Everyone and their dog ALWAYS doing stuff as fast as possible in vain attempts to get as fast as they can up the gear ladder.
Leveling being reduced to a power-grind up levels as quickly as possible, and feeling left behind if you don't take advantage of the statistically overpowered heirlooms.
The constantly funneling of players into the newest content.
Many bits of content and grinding being time-sensitive, in the sense that they WILL be removed if you don't complete them by the time they're no longer current.
Even the most friendly guilds and groups proscribing to this attitude and the idea that they NEED to push through content as quickly as possible.
Insane stat-inflation enabling all of the above behaviours.


Fundamentally speaking:
The game is currently built in such a way that NO ONE can slow down and simply enjoy the game at their own pace.

Either you hop on board with the "Rush Mentality"... or both the game and the community will push you off the boat because you aren't constantly trying to get ahead.

New players trying to learn the ropes of the game don't even get the chance to get their bearing with the game's mechanics, nor do they get the chance to explore the game world and actually enjoy the many great sights there are in this game. Everything and everyone just pushes them to progress, progress, and progress.

... so yes, I've had enough of this load of ********.

And no, this isn't quite another "I'm Quitting WoW" topic.
... or at the very least, not quite yet.

---

At this time, WoW is at the cross-roads.

The "Rush Mentality", the sum of the game's overarching design and the community's driving motivations is looking at going straight off a cliff.

There's no new players coming into the game. Old players are leaving the game as they always do... and it seems like they aren't coming back this time.

By hook or by crook, WoW needs slow down and get rid of it's obsession with quickly progressing and always becoming stronger; players need to be able to slow down, breathe, relax, and enjoy the game. No one should feel they've been left behind if they have to stop playing the game for a few weeks, for any reason, let alone a few days. This is one of the things people forget about Vanilla WoW -- there was no rush back then, and the community was happier for it.

If it doesn't slow down, the game becomes disproportionately stressful and simply not worth playing.

The "Rush Mentaility" is just as much a community issue as it is a game design issue... but the community certainly isn't about to fix itself, so it's up to the game designers to make the appropriate changes to encourage the community to move in the right direction.

Let's hope they do... before the community begins tearing itself apart.

Imean yeah you're right, this stupid mentality has become front and center more than before In WoD with Challenge Mode and even more today with Mythic + which Is just another version of WoD's Challenge Mode. People don't understand rushing through a dungeon, pulling everything left right and center while spamming AoE Taunts/Healing/Damage Is NOT a dungeon experience.

Neither It Is a great experience for you or new players to just rush through low level dungeons, I mean nobody touches the older wow zones unless they just want to spend time being nostalgic and that's only when you're a veteran player, or the more unlikely thing that you've never done the zones and want to experience them, but sadly the experience won't be the same as the one you had during that zone's expansion prime time.

A dungeon was slowly and methodicly pulling mobs one by one, single-targeting the dangereous mobs (Healers, spell casters, or giant berserker-style guys) and then the boss, handling his tactics with care, using CCing on mobs, cause news flash, back In TBC especially you had no AoE-everything, most things you had to single-target and not mindlessly spam Into your entire raid.

And let me also highlight another problem this creates, Healers are OP as shite In PvP. One single cast of a healing spell, ONE Is enough to heal a friendly or yourself from like 20 % HP back to 100 % without even cast time and hence no way to Interupt It. That, should, not, be, a, thing.

That just reminds me of the ye olden times of PvPing In TBC with Holy Paladin where you could hybrid your talents so that you were half Healing half Tanking Paladin. It's almost as bad here although you can't hybrid anymore but that's no problem, you still have healing spells regardless most of the time, even a warrior of all classes has self healing bizzarely enough.

Right now Legion Is not new player friendly at all, really right Legion's hook Is just for the older players, fueled by nostalgia and a boner for Illidan and Demon Hunters and that nostalgia drive has run out 10 months ago, and those players are leaving fast because surprise, this "Vanilla style grinding" nobody liked that. Vanilla was bad, no matter the nostalgia, any vanilla player In their right mind will tell you that was a bad state of the game, It could've been great! It had this whole D&D style Idea for classes which I really liked, every class was unique, had many unique spells and abilities specific to your class, and class fantasy was at an all time high In vanilla unlike Legion. Class fantasy my butt, Vanilla had that down more than any other expansion.


True Class Fantasy

Just as a quick example of "Class Fantasy" that Is missing In Legion that Vanilla had: Paladins had this ability called "Divine Intervention" now what that did was target a friendly group member, put an Invincibility shield around them, de-agro everything from that member and also kill the paladin casting It, hence sacrificing yourself for a party member In a very paladin fashion, and that also left the group member (Hopefully a healer) able to rez the entire group and start over - now that's class fantasy. Not only were abilities like this removed over each expansion, Legion took away the last BITS of unique utility abilities away from you for no bloody reason. You barely have 2 pages of abilities, sure Vanilla had like 10+ pages, but then half of that were the same abilities just on different levels. But still the point remains we had more utility and class-specific abilities that let us do our jobs as a paladin, as a druid, as a rogue and so on... Legion doesn't.

Yes, this is all new and not something that's been around since WOTLK. Actually it is. And look, we're still fine by some freak accident.

Nice contribution bro, but In Legion It's more noticeable than ever before, really Legion highlights many things that are wrong with WoW since the ye olden times, wether It be from Wrath or Cata which are the two prime suspects In changing the game up too much.

[Kyanion]

Imean yeah you're right, this stupid mentality has become front and center more than before In WoD with Challenge Mode and even more today with Mythic + which Is just another version of WoD's Challenge Mode. People don't understand rushing through a dungeon, pulling everything left right and center while spamming AoE Taunts/Healing/Damage Is NOT a dungeon experience.

Neither It Is a great experience for you or new players to just rush through low level dungeons, I mean nobody touches the older wow zones unless they just want to spend time being nostalgic and that's only when you're a veteran player, or the more unlikely thing that you've never done the zones and want to experience them, but sadly the experience won't be the same as the one you had during that zone's expansion prime time.

A dungeon was slowly and methodicly pulling mobs one by one, single-targeting the dangereous mobs (Healers, spell casters, or giant berserker-style guys) and then the boss, handling his tactics with care, using CCing on mobs, cause news flash, back In TBC especially you had no AoE-everything, most things you had to single-target and not mindlessly spam Into your entire raid.

Gee where to start. First of all Dungeons and even some raids were only slow and methodical in Vanilla until people that were good had seen it a couple times then it became a faceroll. UBRS anyone? Look at how that evolved in just Vanilla with the speed of clearing. In TBC Heroics my groups in Shattered Hall tended to CC 1 or 2 mobs but it was done in a speed method as the tank was running in and we just kept chain pulling in other dungeons to clear them as fast as possible because you had so many heroic dungeons to run to get gear.

Challenge Modes in MoP and Mythic+ today are something Blizz for the most part got RIGHT. Do you remember how bad dungeons where in MoP and WoD? They weren't even worth touching for the most part.

The only thing I will agree on is that the sub 100 game needs an overhaul to make dungeons a bit more fun to do and not a one-shot fest. At least with M+ in Legion you are not one shotting everything and if you are you surely are doing a keystone way too weak for you. Hate to break it to you, but your slow/methodical method of doing dungeons died for good in TBC. IT has been what...10 years now? They ain't coming back.

[Deleted]

As an altoholic, I have to use my time efficiently, because Blizzard has a hard-on on annoying time sinks. If they would get rid of these, and we could concentrate on actually doing interesting content and not filler jobs, then I would not mind to spend more time within dungeons, for example.

The other thing is, the encouragement of time runs via the Mythic+ system and CMs before that. I would like to return to strategic play of TBC, where you actually had to counter mobs' and bosses' abilities at the right time and had a strategy to follow instead of mindlessly pulling and aoe-ing stuff from one boss to another.

Edit: Also would be fun if people would be denied from entering any dungeon when they don't have any CC or interrupt or cleansing spells on their bars or something like that. It's incredible how many people run around out there and don't use any of these at all, though it would make some fights much easier and faster. PG silver achievement as requirement for heroics was a good thing, and I would even loved them being extended to LFR as well.

[Pull My Finger]

Your problem is that there is challenging endgame content like m+ and raids or even PVP/Arena if that's your cup of tea, but you apparently rather queue random hc or raid finder and then complain on mmo-champion about lazyness and feeble-minded people (sweet, sweet irony) because that randomized group does not behave the way you would like it to do.

It's a bit over your head, yes, but that's OK.

[Deleted]

Could it not be argued that the issue here isn't that the game is bad now, but that it's different?

People are comparing legion to classic which is reasonable to do, but it's not like we just jumped from one to the other, there were stages of change that have led us to here. It's like your friend has a kid, if you see the kid every day you don't notice the changes but if you don't see them for a year suddenly they're huge and talking and you notice how different it all is.

The issues people seem to have with this 'gogogo' mentality is that it's not how they want to play but they're pushed in to it. If they want to get a chunk of AP they're required to do LFG. This affects players at both ends of the spectrum. The 'slow and steady' crowd gets rushed and the 'gogogo' crowd gets frustrated by the slower guys. Neither playstyle is wrong, but they're being mashed together regardless.

People don't understand rushing through a dungeon, pulling everything left right and center while spamming AoE Taunts/Healing/Damage Is NOT a dungeon experience.

Sure it is. It's just not your expectation of a dungeon experience. I played classic, I enjoyed everything from deadmines up to BWL, AQs etc. I had a blast, but for the first year I completely sucked. I autoshot my way through MC because I didn't know better. I was awful but I had an amazing time enjoying the slower pace. Over time though I improved and got better at the game and the mechanics, I joined hardcore guilds and pushed the game and myself and that was fun too, but very different to my original experience.

The game changed, but so did our expectations. That's as big of a part of MMOs as the story, the character development and growth. The first time I soloed deadmines back in classic I felt such a baller, then I pushed myself to do it faster. It sounds silly now but I think it's an example of how many people view the game. I did content at the correct level/gear level and then when I went back later I felt super powerful compared to that previous experience.

Surely this is the issue? People that have done content before just want to feel baller, so they gear up their alts in heirlooms and blitz low level dungeons because they're forced into that content. Then they get max level, get geared and speedrun heroics because they need to do that to get alt#5 up to par for their alt raids or switching mains or hell, running on mains because it's optimal AP and their guild expects them to have concordance12 already.

My point is that maybe it's not worse, only different, but it's how the game works now if you do random group content.

[Allenseiei]

Everyone goes fast because some how blizzard decided that the top 1% of players need content faster.

Its exactly the top 1% of players who lose because of this system. This system is the outcome of accesibility that was introduced in WotLK for the 99%, not the 1%. You can only go fast because the content is trivial, why is the content trivial and easy? Because of the 99%.

[apelsinjuice]

Everyone goes fast because some how blizzard decided that the top 1% of players need content faster.

Its the exact other way around, thanks to making raids more casual and way more accessible thanks to LFR, the casuals now need new raids every few months to keep them occoupied, meanwhile in vanilla/tbc they could do the same raid for 6 months and still never even see the last boss. Why do you think they even gate LFR in the first place, trying to milk some extra subs from all the casuals before they finish the raid and then quit again.

the hardcore 1% will always farm the raid every week until next raid no matter what.

[Allenseiei]

Hell it was even happening in parts of Vanilla, like when they introduced skillbooks and had people that were clearing raids going back to UBRS to get rogue books. That place was a slaughter, it carried over into speed strat clears and so on. The further along Vanilla got the most go-go-go it was becoming. I think it cooled off a little bit in TBC because of heroic dungeons being a thing but as you said in late TBC it became more likely a dungeon run was going to be going all out with speed pulling and ignoring much if not all CCing.

HC dungeons were hard to rush at the end of TBC for t6 warriors for example, since they didn't get hit and didn't generate enough rage to agro, our MT had to swtich to t4-t5, but yeah, you have a paladin? let the chain pulls begin.

[Razorice]

Take it slow and accomplish 10 things in a day or do it fast and accomplish 15? your choice. I've made mine.