Sylvanas is a raid boss!

[Razorice]

I don't think Blizzard would do it, just because Horde has suffered enough and our Warchiefs are dying like flies lately.

[Daevelian]

Did you play the Purge of Dalaran questline in MoP? I felt extremely uneasy about Jaina and Vereesa asking/ordering me to participate in war crimes.

I don't recall any war crimes being committed by Jaina. She tried to arrest people and fought back if they resisted. Would you like to point to specific examples of war crimes perpetrated specifically by Jaina?

[Deleted]

Except to incite a war that could bring about her end...



Please, let us know what SPECIFICALLY points to Jaina, i'll be waiting.

And no, i will not include head canon levels of interpretation, provide EVIDENCE.

so lets look at it.

Varimathras taunts Alliance
Varimathras: So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I instead, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.
Varimathras: When your thrones run red with betrayal... when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your heart... only then you will know. And it will be too late.
Varimathras: It matters not. You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you.


He's talking to Alliance players.

though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one. - Sylvanas is in no positions to secretly plant any seeds of alliance downfall. Jaina is and she is trying to provoke a war with Horde since MoP.

When your thrones run red with betrayal. - To betray anyone you have to be allied with him. Sylvanas is no ally to the alliance. Jaina is. The absence of Jaina since a start of Legion points she went by her way (kul tiras leaks alliance with old gods, also il'gynoth whisper about her heart is crater (Theramore) and we have fill it points to Jaina).


when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your heart... - This only thing can be pointing on sylvanas. Also, shattered mask can be phrase of betrayal. (You had your ally mask and now your mask is shattered as you show you are no longer ally)

It matters not. You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you. - Why would he point at obvious threat? Doesn't make any sense.


Now you tell me what exactly points to sylvanas except that shattered mask synonym.



Edit: I rly liked jaina when she was neutral. I liked her since W3 and she was my favorite character. But now she is big threat to the whole of azeroth with her hatred of thing which doesn't exist now (garroshs horde) and being able to do anything that will help her to achieve her goal. Even to join old gods. And Alliance show back on her to help her in this matter. She will join 3rd party. Only logical way to go.

[derpkitteh]

@derpkitteh



why?

because it's a trope that's done to death and i'm sick of it.

[Daevelian]

so lets look at it.

Varimathras taunts Alliance
Varimathras: So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.
Varimathras: When your thrones run red with betrayal... when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your heart... only then you will know. And it will be too late.
Varimathras: It matters not. You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you.


He's talking to Alliance players.

though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one. - Sylvanas is in no positions to secretly plant any seeds of alliance downfall. Jaina is and she is trying to provoke a war with Horde since MoP.

When your thrones run red with betrayal. - To betray anyone you have to be allied with him. Sylvanas is no ally to the alliance. Jaina is. The absence of Jaina since a start of Legion points she went by her way (kul tiras leaks alliance with old gods, also il'gynoth whisper about her heart is crater (Theramore) and we have fill it points to Jaina).


when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your heart... - This only thing can be pointing on sylvanas. Also, shattered mask can be phrase of betrayal. (You had your ally mask and now your mask is shattered as you show you are no longer ally)

Rest of Varimathras sentence doesn't point at anything.


Now you tell me what exactly points to sylvanas except that shattered mask synonym.

Hoookay, you're rather special...

Seeds of its downfall could mean anything. Horde agents infiltrated the alliance, plague bombs hidden in key locations, banshees possessing key figures in the higher up of the alliance. Sylvanas is in the BEST position for it. None of what you said specifically points to Jaina so, you get no points for this.

Thrones run red with betrayal. You realise betrayal can come from anything right? Those agents Sylvanas planted high up, maybe she attacks a peace talk meeting the horde is having with the alliance. This line could be the most loosely interpreted but NONE of it points directly to Jaina again, so, no points once more. You're just pulling random points together to justify your train of thought there.

Shattered mask hanging over your hearth is quite literal there, the whole line is DIRECTLY pointing to Sylvanas and the forsaken, not some imaginary synonym being asspulled by someone selectively looking to wrongfully accuse.

Try again?

[Deleted]

How is Jaina even remotely related to what Var says.

"Varimathras taunts Alliance
Varimathras: So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.

Could apply to Jaina, moreso that Sylv imo.

[Daevelian]

Most important fact for all the "ermahgerd jaina" crowd, how would Varimathras even know of Jaina and her plans? He was removed from the picture during the battle for the undercity, an event which occurred before the fall of the lich king and LONG before the bombing of theramore, where she started to hate the horde.

Sylvanas on the other hand? he was co-leading the forsaken alongside her until he was deposed. This "she has patience" thing would imply the plan has been in motion for a long time, he would likely know nothing of Jaina at this point, yet know everything of sylvanas' old plans to deal with the "living".

[Frumpy Frumpy Frak]

"Varimathras taunts Alliance
Varimathras: So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.

Could apply to Jaina, moreso that Sylv imo.

Jaina "I'mma nuke Orgrimmar on a whim" Proudmore is anything but patient. She'll ineffectually run her mouth about the Horde whenever she can and will then throw a tantrum whenever she gets put in her place.

I'm going to look forward to teabagging Sylvanas' corpse.

Professor Putricide for Banshee Queen 2017.

[Anardel]

All Varimathras' dialogue is pointing to Sylvanas, either on Alliance players or Horde players. We must understand that it's a complete text, cherrypicking only one or two phrases and quoting them out of context to imply it could be another person, like Jaina, is useless.
We must read the complete text and the complete text is referring to Sylvanas.

It means we're going to kill Sylvanas? Nobody knows.

[Deleted]

Hoookay, you're rather special...

Seeds of its downfall could mean anything. Horde agents infiltrated the alliance, plague bombs hidden in key locations, banshees possessing key figures in the higher up of the alliance. Sylvanas is in the BEST position for it. None of what you said specifically points to Jaina so, you get no points for this.

Thrones run red with betrayal. You realise betrayal can come from anything right? Those agents Sylvanas planted high up, maybe she attacks a peace talk meeting the horde is having with the alliance. This line could be the most loosely interpreted but NONE of it points directly to Jaina again, so, no points once more. You're just pulling random points together to justify your train of thought there.

Shattered mask hanging over your hearth is quite literal there, the whole line is DIRECTLY pointing to Sylvanas and the forsaken, not some imaginary synonym being asspulled by someone selectively looking to wrongfully accuse.

Try again?

So you want facts from me and all you deliver is the theory about agents, bombs, meetings. Everything you just wrote is only from your head.

There is nothing direct about shattered mask. It's quite a general term.

Nice of you ignoring half of post i wrote for you.

[Daevelian]

So you want facts from me and all you deliver is the theory about agents, bombs, meetings. Everything you just wrote is only from your head.

There is nothing direct about shattered mask. It's quite a general term.

I simply gave back what gave. Nothing but pure asspulled speculation. Unfortunately, what i said is entirely in character for your beloved lich queen, while yours, as shown before, does not fit with the impatient temper tantrums of Jaina.

And yes, it is bloody direct. <OBJECT> hanging over your hearth is a very common line referring to the heraldry found hanging over a fireplace (a hearth), the shattered mask is, quite literally, the heraldy of the forsaken.

[Deleted]

I simply gave back what gave. Nothing but pure asspulled speculation. Unfortunately, what i said is entirely in character for your beloved lich queen, while yours, as shown before, does not fit with the impatient temper tantrums of Jaina.

And yes, it is bloody direct. <OBJECT> hanging over your hearth is a very common line referring to the heraldry found hanging over a fireplace (a hearth), the shattered mask is, quite literally, the heraldy of the forsaken.

Sylvanas is not my favorite character by far. Im just looking at strings and pull then together.

Best thing Varimathras is also talking to you directly. And he is right.

You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you.


After exp leak which will show Jaina as a villain I hope you will come here and apologize to everyone who can look at facts and are not blinded by favoritism


It will be surprising for you but my favorite character was Varian. even as Horde player

[Tydrane]

To be fair, I think Varimathras could very well be speaking to the Alliance about Sylvanas. I think it makes more sense than Jaina, only because it's Varimathras saying it and so far as we know, he hasn't had much if anything to do with Jaina.

Varimathras: So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.

Jaina has never been described as patient, to my knowledge. From Warcraft 3 onwards, she's been known as hasty. Thoughtful, but quick to act. Sylvanas, however, could certainly be characterised as someone who plays the long game. Reckless and arrogant in life, undeath has made her more calculating and shrewd.

Where Varimathras refers to "[planting] the seeds of its downfall", he could be doing what Genn Greymane does: mischaracterising her actions at the Broken Shore as a deliberate betrayal intended to hamstring the Alliance by removing its' leadership, resulting in the death of Varian Wrynn. She wasn't Warchief then, and was acting on the direct orders of then-Warchief Vol'jin when she called the retreat. Varian's loss to the Alliance was a huge blow to their military command, and resulted in the inexperienced Anduin Wrynn taking the throne, and Jaina Proudmoore abandoning the Alliance.

Varimathras: When your thrones run red with betrayal... when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your hearth... only then you will know. And it will be too late.

The shattered mask is the icon of the Forsaken. Interestingly, I think the first short sentence ties in with the last point - I believe that Genn Greymane will attempt to seize the throne at some point in the near future. He doesn't believe Anduin is a leader capable of commanding the Alliance to victory, he still sees him as just a boy. Either Anduin's or Genn's, someone's blood is going to spill. There's also Jaina's parting veiled threat to consider, the very last time we saw her.

I can't see any particular reason why Jaina would burn the Alliance's holy places.

Varimathras: It matters not. You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you.

Lastly I believe this part is irrelevant to either woman, rather, if we consider the context of where we encounter Varimathras, we must conclude that he is referring to the Void.

There is one other person I think fits Varimathras' taunts better than Jaina, but I didn't mention her because the dreadlord has similarly little to do with this woman: Moira Thaurissan. All of his lines could be interpreted to apply to her, as well.

[Daevelian]

Sylvanas is not my favorite character by far. Im just looking at strings and pull then together.

Best thing Varimathras is also talking to you directly. And he is right.

You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you.


After exp leak which will show Jaina as a villain I hope you will come here and apologize to everyone who can look at facts and are not blinded by favoritism


It will be surprising for you but my favorite character was Varian. even as Horde player

My god you are dense. There are no strings to pull together, the only one blind to the darkness is you it seems, blindly following false "strings" that lead nowhere while the lich queen closes her hands around your neck.

I wish there was a way to set a reminder on these forums so i could make you eat your words in a years time.

[Deleted]

that's never how it works in fantasy. it's a pretty common trope to have a bad guy go out saying something that's important.

That may be, but WoW is not the typical fantasy stereotype. It's heavy with pop culture meta-things, for example. Of course, there is much inkonsistental writing and probably people interpret too much into these lines.

But if I would write this, and keep true to the ever-lying manipulator stereotype, then he would be lying even in his final breath to cause as much damage as possible. The best thing, since people mistrust Sylvanas already - not only the whole Alliance bunch, but probably also many Horde members - this is the best lie possibly to achieve as much damage as possible.

After all, the Undead first broke free from the reign of the Legion when the Lich King started to act independently, and then the Forsaken even regained their free will and started fighting the Legion on the side of some other living races in Azeroth. If I would want to take revenge, I would put a huge mark above Sylvanas to get rid of her and of the Forsaken.

- - - Updated - - -

If you look at some of those other datamined quotes, youll see that the Windrunner's appear to be rather prominant in this patch. I think the reveal is not about Sylvanas (Who i agree, has plot armor being the only original recognizable horde leader still around)...but one of her sisters.

In conjunction with the other datamined lines you could have a point here.

[Deleted]

My god you are dense. There are no strings to pull together, the only one blind to the darkness is you it seems, blindly following false "strings" that lead nowhere while the lich queen closes her hands around your neck.

I wish there was a way to set a reminder on these forums so I could make you eat your words in a years time.

I'm dense because after 5 posts you didn't tell me anything reasonable that could make me change my mind. Only that Shattered Mask is forsaken crest which I agree it is but I can see this sentence with more points of view than one.


look at Tydrane post. It makes sense and I say it's possible. But still, think it points to Jaina more than Sylvanas

[Deleted]

"Varimathras taunts Alliance
Varimathras: So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.
Varimathras: When your thrones run red with betrayal... when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your hearth... only then you will know. And it will be too late.
Varimathras: It matters not. You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you.

Varimathras taunts Horde
Varimathras: So, she found me at last. Sent her underlings to finish the job.
Varimathras: Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No... I'd wager you surrendered it willingly... or were convinced you did.
Varimathras: It matters not. You are blind to the darkness in your midst."

this sounds like she has an ulterior motive, for sure.

Thing is, from the perspective of your character's story he only ever says one of the above passages. If you didn't know the other passage it is very easy to consider the alliance one to refer to Jaina.

It could indicate both Jaina and Sylvanas will raid bosses, that the story will go in the direction of either/both being implicated in something to make us think they will be but are vindicated at the end of the story, or just a random thing to make people talk about it on the internet.

[Daevelian]

I'm dense because after 5 posts you didn't tell me anything reasonable that could make me change my mind. Only that Shattered Mask is forsaken crest which I agree it is but I can see this sentence with more points of view than one.


look at Tydrane post. It makes sense and I say it's possible. But still, think it points to Jaina more than Sylvanas

I sadly have the same amount of patience as Jaina when it comes to dealing with selectively dumb arguments.

[Deleted]

I sadly have the same amount of patience as Jaina when it comes to dealing with selectively dumb arguments.

Only dumb arguments are yours mate. Oh, wait. You don't post arguments. You post your make up theories which have only one base information and that is Shattered Mask. It's the only thing you have.

[Daevelian]

Only dumb arguments are yours mate. Oh, wait. You don't post arguments. You post your make up theories which have only one base information and that is Shattered Mask. It's the only thing you have.

Pot calling kettle black there.

Not my fault you are pulling out of your ass to FORCE your argument to fit Jaina.

You still have not provided any evidence.