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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    For pretty obvious reasons too. While I support currency sovereignty, I only support it if its actually beneficial to a nation. Clearly the Euro is a better deal for Germany than otherwise.
    Well if I were german I'd probably have the same feeling, but I'm not and I think the Euro is an abomination.

    I'm not really sure I understand the difference, but then I'm learned in political theory, not economic theory so my economics knowledge is sort of fuzzy on specific names and styles.
    Neoliberalism is fine with trade as long as there are no tariffs or barriers to entry, this means that subsidies are ok. They also aren't fans of the New trade theory (the ones with the child industries need protectionism). New classical thinking is more broad and the ones that accepts AD measures, new trade theory and all that jazz.


    I'm well aware of that. But Greece didn't need Germany's permission to go back to using its own currency, all it needed to do was leave the EU.
    Certainly, but their debt is in euros so changing to another currency would do little to solve their problems.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Because it is very akward to be the big champion of free trade when you are the one profiting from it the most on the planet.
    It's not awkward, it's success incarnate.
    Thankfully it's not popular to wage war in Europe anymore or the other western countries would manipulate Germany in to WW3 again.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm well aware of that. But Greece didn't need Germany's permission to go back to using its own currency, all it needed to do was leave the EU. The EU needs to understand that like the USA, under a Federal currency system, some states will always be takers and some states will always be givers. The EU is in part struggling because it can't accept this and expects everyone to be givers. The EU must either accept that the international economic, political and social leverage brought about by being "one nation" is more valuable than every member being a giver, or they must reevaluate their unification goals.

    Germany actually gets this (in part because it's totally benefitting from the current arrangement) which is why via the EU, they have been subsidizing other countries. The problem is they're still treating that like loans and debt to those nations, which you can't do if you want to be "one nation" because that debt and its repayment will just crush their economies because they'll never not be debtors.
    Very well said!

    We have kind of the same situation in Germany as in Europe and we figure this out... Eastern GER is poor, Bavaria and Western GER are rich briefly said. Therefor we have something called "country structure balancing" where rich states have to give money to poorer states so they don't fall behind too dastically. Also every German gives away a few % of their monthly wage as "solidarity surcharge" for the German unification. Of course not everybody is happy with that but it works.

    There's no real finacial solidarity or balancing in Europe and unless this changes there will always be big differences. I would like to see more solidarity and support for Greece but it shouldn't be made too easy by simply writing off the debt. They are not at the mercy of Angela Merkel ...

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by PL-Cibo View Post
    Ah well, then theres no problem, they do that since 1990. It served them quite well, last time i was there.
    And yes, poor central europe. Dänemark, Niederlande, Österreich, Schweiz they are poor as fuck, and living there must be hell.
    Netherlands is Western Europe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raakel View Post
    Very well said!

    We have kind of the same situation in Germany as in Europe and we figure this out... Eastern GER is poor, Bavaria and Western GER are rich briefly said. Therefor we have something called "country structure balancing" where rich states have to give money to poorer states so they don't fall behind too dastically. Also every German gives away a few % of their monthly wage as "solidarity surcharge" for the German unification. Of course not everybody is happy with that but it works.

    There's no real finacial solidarity or balancing in Europe and unless this changes there will always be big differences. I would like to see more solidarity and support for Greece but it shouldn't be made too easy by simply writing off the debt. They are not at the mercy of Angela Merkel ...
    Apart from Frisia. Which is poor


    And I decided Mittens just hates Germany and his a clueless nation bashing for pure feelings of hatred..... Missed some sex in EU?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Linadra View Post
    Tie the interest to inflation, and double the rate at which they are to pay back. Now they can get to it, instead of complaining about interest payments.
    That has already been done though.

  6. #66
    Ever occured to anyone that you could just, you know, try to produce better stuff than the Germans? *cough*US*cough*

    Or maybe, I dont know, try to not bank your entire economy on extremely vulnerable markets like tourism and agriculture? *cough*Greece*cough*

    Or, I don't know, try to combat corruption from top to bottom first before blaming other countries? *cough*almost the entire east block*cough*


    And no, buying German products has nothing to do with nationalism. Nothing. If your products are better/cheaper, few will buy german products instead because muh' Germany. Just look at all the multimedia electronic goods from Asia either pushing German brands out of the market, or buying them out (effectively buying the name but produce elsewhere).

    As for the US, sorry but that's the consequence if you decide to focus on services instead of production. And it's not like you aren't successful on that field, at least I can't see real competiton for Google, Facebook, Amazon, Ebay etc. etc. anytime soon.

  7. #67
    Deleted
    Once again a very superficial discussion with most phrases copied from boulevard magazines.

    Germany was a pretty strong country even before the Euro. Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece and many more had very very weak currencies before the EURO (kinda 2nd to 3rd world niveau) and these states appreciated the Euro alot. Exactly these states, which were and sometimes still are political underdeveloped and had a lot of corruption, pulling the Euro down. All the week countries in Europe were always dependent on investments from abroad (real estate, tourism). After the financial crisis nearly all investments for real estate were canceled, what had a apocalyptical impact on those countries and also the strong countries which were binded to them due to the Euro.

    The Euro isnt a Wild Card. All the vampiric states should suffer if the believe they could keep going their life style at the cost of the other states. They have played and they have lost. Now the industry nations are up to re-educate them.

    Germany is wealthy from the nations point of view, but the wages are very low compared to the cash flow. The purchasing power of german people is only mediocre.

  8. #68
    Why does Germany even exist? Give it back to the Russians and let's be done with it. The cancer of the world, the blight of all western civilization, the ruiner of 3 empires and desolater of all Christendom; enough-I'm done with Germany.

    What's the worst that could happen? We stop buying other people's steel and start using our own?

    Merkel is worse than Hitler in that she has been much more successful than the Nazis ever were. The European Union is a thinly veiled front for the 4th Reich. They financially decimate their enemies and rule from the shadows. How many more sinister state-deaths must you endure before you excise this Tumor from the world?

    (Infracted)
    Last edited by mmocc02219cc8b; 2017-07-10 at 09:30 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by thevoicefromwithin View Post
    That parallel universe of yours; is there kinky stuff as well? And no, in this reality Americans are not less patriotic than Germans; never thought I'd ever need to spell that out. In less than one year in the states, I've seen way more 'buy American' advertising than 'buy German' in decades living in Germany.



    Microsoft and Google both have monopolies and are not squeamish about securing them. Facebook blatently lied to EU trade and market commissioners during the 'whatsapp' takeover. It cost them a mere 110 million Euro, which is a joke. Apple virtually pays no taxes in Europe. I don't like the EU and many of their regulations, but they didn't hit any innocents here.

    There is a clear imbalance concerning banking regulations. Deutsche Bank had to pay billions in the US - quite possibly deservedly. On the other hand Goldman Sachs was instrumental in helping Greece cook the books for Euro entry. What happened? Nothing. EU should have crushed them.

    What I (probably unlike 95% of europeans) find problematic are the measures against genetically modified food and seeds. Those hit US companies as well and they are not necessarily on solid scientific ground. If unsure, just mark the products as genetically modified and let the consumer decide.

    But in the end, those are EU decisions, not german ones and I doubt they contribute in a relevant way to the trade surplus.
    Here is something to consider, for every $2 we send the EU we get $1 back. These tech companies are one of the few US industries that can make a little money in the EU.

    EU politicians benefit greatly by attacking these companies, they get a lot of votes.

    If we can't compete fairly what's left? Tariffs?
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  10. #70
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9 View Post
    As far as I can see, this "impossible" is more of a "don't want to" in at least many of the cases.
    You still need some typ of capital or loans to suport a German style educational system, becuse the pay-off is 15-20 year in the future. Then the first generation passed through the new improved educational system.

    Greece has locked itself up, to improve you need money, but becuse Greece have mismanagement its previous loans, nobady want to lend money at reasonable interest rates.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaexion Ramza Beoulve View Post
    Why does Germany even exist? Give it back to the Russians and let's be done with it. The cancer of the world, the blight of all western civilization, the ruiner of 3 empires and desolater of all Christendom; enough-I'm done with Germany.

    What's the worst that could happen? We stop buying other people's steel and start using our own?

    Merkel is worse than Hitler in that she has been much more successful than the Nazis ever were. The European Union is a thinly veiled front for the 4th Reich. They financially decimate their enemies and rule from the shadows. How many more sinister state-deaths must you endure before you excise this Tumor from the world?
    /clap /clap masterful shitposting we all can learn somuch from you.

  12. #72
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9 View Post
    Why? Germany doesn't have any particular natural ressources (it had in the past with its massive coal and steel industry, but Germany is importing all that from Asia and Australia like everyone else for some years now, and has sold off / demolished almost ALL of its mines and steelworks), and not a particularily great location on the globe, with access to the sea at only one side, and that's not even the best sea to connect to all the other big players. (Well, it's open, but quite a detour for trade with Asia and the US.)
    All Germany has and had was the sheer willpower to work its collective butt off, implement proper education and install institutions that cater to the workers' well being, ensuring people liked and had the physical and mental capacity to work hard and with care towards quality. I don't see many points that couldn't be achieved by any other nations in the world. Heck, many could even surpass Germany merit of their geological conditions or natural ressources. (And that things seem to go downhill for the simple worker in Germany may also play into those nations' hands.)

    As far as I can see, this "impossible" is more of a "don't want to" in at least many of the cases. I mean yeah, it would require most or everyone pulling the same string to actually achieve this on a national scale. But there are few more reasons than "it's big" that would make at least some improvements impossible.
    I know we live in the ''anyone can be anything he wants'' propaganda world, but do you actually believe this? Like I already said, the location, the size, the people, the industrial base and the vast amount of financial capital is impossible to emulate on a whim. Germany's location isn't particularly great? It's only in the middle of Europe, where it connects to everything, right? Sure it's not great from a military perspective, but it's size and location make it fit to be the perfect exporter and trade partner for all other EU countries. Even if some country would try to beecome the next Germany, it would take decades, if it would be even possible that is. And that's assuming Germany would even let them (they wouldn't).

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Mittens View Post
    The article is saying that Germany ought to spend more, their lack of spending doesn't balance other nations books.

    And neoliberalism didn't really play a role on how trade is made that was neoclassical thinking which doesn't argue against trade surplus, just prolonged ones since it causes the problems described in the article. Those problems would still happen unless everyone decided to engage in mercantilism and go back to the 19th century and early 20th century.
    It's funny people complain about the 1% who are "hoarding" the majority of wealth and say it's harmful that they aren't spending their wealth and yet would argue against this.

  14. #74
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    Here is something to consider, for every $2 we send the EU we get $1 back. These tech companies are one of the few US industries that can make a little money in the EU.

    If we can't compete fairly what's left? Tariffs?
    I understand the sentiment and share at least some aspects. On top of that - for 45 years - US taxpayers made sure that Berlin and everything west of it wasn't overrun by the red army. The rampant anti-Americanism and utter lack of gratitude, especially in those years when a Republican is president, is both stupid and shameful, but I'm not sold it contributes significantly to the trade imbalance.

    To use your word, the USA isn't treated 'fairly' by western european media, public, politicians. But I don't see this applying to US products outside a few areas where EU is generally protectionist: most importantly agriculture. After all even the leftist rabble often shouthing 'down with america' while plundering or arsoning won't say no to a big mac and a coke.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holofernes View Post
    its easy: the whole world buys german machines, that nobody else can built. American cars? lol. Everyone who can afford a german one, buys a german. Even japanese / korean cars are better made. Tesla? lol. watch their cars. the cant even bend the chassis in a way that if fits together, they have clearances of over 2 cm, in an easy as fuck process as metal folding. Ford is the only american car producer that can do this.


    Imagine german government would stop forcing the VERY strong rules for military goods from beeing exportet. German is now nr 9 /10 in the world of military exporting. it would be 3 if the companies were allowed to actually sell their stuff outside of Nato.

    its a sign of a poor country if beeing a mother not considered as a full time job. Forcing mothers to work is a sign of a 3rd world country. They can stay home and care for the children if they wish, btw per law this applys to fathers too. One income per family should be enough, if u need to take more than 1 job to support your family, like this glorious analysis suggests, that means you are beeing fucked by the economy.

    also this article is full of nonsense. The cost of housing on a decade long decline? Its the opposite. Try to find a small appartment (30 qm) in a big city for under 800 Euro. (ca 1 k dollar /month) . You will be searching very long. 15 years ago, when i started at university, it was easy to get one for 300.

    Another thing: for a manufactorer job at for example mercedes or bmw, u need education thats on a level that is comparable to american colleges. Those degrees are worth nothing, american exchange students have no idea compared to germans university students. The bachelor degree is less education and theory then a typical apprenticeship in germany requires, as long as its not landscaping. BMW had to build a school first to train their workforce in their US plants, because US education is very poor, and quality of products was not on the level required.
    That is basically the most ignorant pile of crap cry baby pile of words I've ever seen. What coherent thought were you trying to make, exactly?
    There are no worse scum in this world than fascists, rebels and political hypocrites.
    Donald Trump is only like Hitler because of the fact he's losing this war on all fronts.
    Apparently condemning a fascist ideology is the same as being fascist. And who the fuck are you to say I can't be fascist against fascist ideologies?
    If merit was the only dividing factor in the human race, then everyone on Earth would be pretty damn equal.

  16. #76
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9 View Post
    Why? Germany doesn't have any particular natural ressources (it had in the past with its massive coal and steel industry, but Germany is importing all that from Asia and Australia like everyone else for some years now, and has sold off / demolished almost ALL of its mines and steelworks), and not a particularily great location on the globe, with access to the sea at only one side, and that's not even the best sea to connect to all the other big players. (Well, it's open, but quite a detour for trade with Asia and the US.)
    I hope you're joking.
    Tell me you are.
    Are you?


  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    For every $2 we give to Europe they give us $1 back.

    Southern Europe holds the euro low because they are poorer, Germany benefits from this low euro because it makes it's exports artificially cheap.

    We need to form a dollar zone with Venezuela and Cuba, to make the dollar worth 1/10th of what it is now.
    There were talks about a NAU, but that went tits up when the Annoying Orange got elected.
    There are no worse scum in this world than fascists, rebels and political hypocrites.
    Donald Trump is only like Hitler because of the fact he's losing this war on all fronts.
    Apparently condemning a fascist ideology is the same as being fascist. And who the fuck are you to say I can't be fascist against fascist ideologies?
    If merit was the only dividing factor in the human race, then everyone on Earth would be pretty damn equal.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mittens View Post
    I've been looking for an article like this for quite a while. This basically sums up most of my thoughts when it comes to the Euro and Northern Europe/Germany problem. I don't think our German friends will like it though.

    Why Germany’s current-account surplus is bad for the world economy


    https://www.economist.com/news/leade...nt-surplus-bad
    This appears to be an opinion piece and not an actual article of news. Thus I must assume it's got bias.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Holofernes View Post
    its easy: the whole world buys german machines, that nobody else can built. American cars? lol. Everyone who can afford a german one, buys a german.
    Always love myths like this that have little to do with the actual reality of ownership.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by thevoicefromwithin View Post
    I understand the sentiment and share at least some aspects. On top of that - for 45 years - US taxpayers made sure that Berlin and everything west of it wasn't overrun by the red army. The rampant anti-Americanism and utter lack of gratitude, especially in those years when a Republican is president, is both stupid and shameful, but I'm not sold it contributes significantly to the trade imbalance.

    To use your word, the USA isn't treated 'fairly' by western european media, public, politicians. But I don't see this applying to US products outside a few areas where EU is generally protectionist: most importantly agriculture. After all even the leftist rabble often shouthing 'down with america' while plundering or arsoning won't say no to a big mac and a coke.
    I am not sure where the anti-Americanism you speak of is coming from. I mean EU politicians are poised against Trump, but that is because he is against the EU in general. But most people here are not anti-American. They might be annoyed by Trump about things like dropping out of the Paris Accords, but that is not due to him being an American. 'Tis because of what he does, says, and stands for.

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