[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Ragnarocket]

On Jenova it's generally considered rude to pull while there is still a good trickle of "Invite!" shouts going on within the zone. Once that trickle has slowed down or ended it's generally no longer an "early" pull. Usually about 40-50 people will be around before a hunt gets pulled. There are some people who have a habit of pulling the second enough people are around to where it looks safe to pull. They get called out usually. It's especially bad on the rare mobs/hunts/FATEs.

[Aurimas]

Looking for some perspective:

For anyone who hunts somewhat actively, about how long do people on your server wait before pulling? Apparently waiting 3 mins after arriving at a hunt call out, shouting "Anyone on the way for <t> <pos>?" (with the <t> being the hunt mob) then pulling if no one responds after 15 seconds is considered the actions of an early puller.

I have no idea.

Don't worry about it. There will always be calls of "early pull". There are always a percentage of people who just heard the call a second ago so in their mind you pulled early. Even if you waited an hour.

Two or three min sounds good to me. Once you have enough people to do the job, wait another minute or two and go for it.

Edit:
I also like the above idea of "once INV shouts start to trickle off". Even then there is always someone who will think it's early. Just shrug it off if he decides to be an ass about it.

[Manabomb]

Because I wanted to keep it simple for the sake of making an example. In any real situation there will be groups being formed removing people from the queue, and the aim is to get it to be completely empty ASAP. In this example I wanted to show how shifting the number of players around doesn't really affect the number of groups being formed because you're merely changing the limiting role rather than "fixing" the problem.

There will always be a limiting role in the queue because it's extremely unlikely that people are ever going to queue up in a perfect 1:1:2, Tank: Healer: DPS ratio.



To use your metaphor, it's a full bottle that you're trying to empty. The only reason you can't pour it all out at once is because the number of tanks limit how many groups you can form at any one time.



You're moving the problem on. Adding more Tanks without also adding more Healers still leaves you with long queues.

The goal is to get Tanks, Healers and DPS queuing up in a 1:1:2 ratio. That way groups would be formed immediately and you'd go straight to the dungeon. To make happen you need to either add more Tanks and Healers or reduce the number of DPS. The ideal way to do that is to offer an incentive for the DPS already in the queue to level up another job and switch roles, and any incentive that is strong enough to do that has to be so absurdly over the top that it'll break your game clean in half.

Yeah, adding tank classes and healer classes isn't going to magically make more tank players and healer players. If people wanted to tank and heal right now they can, could and should for those instant queues, but the more plausible situation is that there will always be a disproportionate amount of DPS to tanks and healers because the latter two roles require group responsibility and in the case of tank, group leadership.

Most of the people that I talk to about tanking don't like tanking not because of the classes or the abilities or the fact there are "only 3". They don't like it because of the pressure.

[StrawberryZebra]

He spoke on the likelyhood that more people liked to play DPS because there was less responsibility and accountability.

Essentially he mused on whether the queue times were a product of the number or people wanting to play tank and healer, or if the queue time itself was the threshold. As if 20 minuets (number made up) was the point where people said "fuckit, I'll play tank then".

He wished he could just push a button and let in an extra dps without all the design problems that would follow. Just to see if the (dps) queue times would stay markedly lower, or if the average queue time would just creep back up to around where it was, as more people were happy to give up the responsibility.

It's an interesting idea. One I would like to have seen tried out briefly, say over two weeks or so, as a sort of experiment just to have some data to work with. It would certainly have been one MMO devs found useful if the results were ever published. It would be a great way of getting inside the mind of your players and would offer up some invaluable insights.

Based on my own observations and experiences, I'd guess that he would be right about DPS that liked their own lack of accountability. My evidence for that is that it has traditionally been the dungeon bosses where the DPS have to take responsibility for using Clicky Items or handling unusual mechanics that are the ones that cause the most wipes. Not because they're "hard", but because no one wants to do the one important thing to make the fight a success.

Also fights with adds that need to be killed ASAP - Those are very telling too.

[Kyriani]

The fact that AiN exists at all means there's a shortage of one role. If you went ahead and chucked a billion Tanks into the queue, then you'd have enough tanks for every group. You would lack enough healers to go around.

If people are only tanking for the reward then as soon as you take that away from them they either stop queueing or queue for the role which is getting the reward. Regardless of the outcome, the end result is the same. Less tanks queueing - Which in turn leads to fewer groups being formed. (Then obviously the Duty finder would then readjust the AiN back to tanks to help correct the problem, meaning the bonus would swap between Tanks and Healers)

AiN is itself a symptomn of the problem. The long term sustainable solution is to get more people playing tanks and healers, that means shorter queues for everyone across the board.



This is EXACTLY what I've been saying! Squenix would need to offer rediculous rewards to get people to swap to Tanking and Healing long term. They cannot do that without completely destroying their games reward structures. They need to look for ways other than AiN to fix the problem.

It sounds like you're assuming only healers would swap to tank to take advantage of the AiN. But what happens when some dps bleed off to try tanking to get those AiN rewards? Things balance out that's what.

In any game that uses the holy trinity, I don't believe there's any amount of "making tanks and healers fun to play" that will address the primary reason most folk don't play them. Fun is subjective. Healers and tanks are just as fun as dps... for those who find healing and tanking fun. The primary reason fewer people enjoy tanking and healing is because those roles have far more personal responsibility attached. It is impossible to "make tanking and healing more fun" in the manner dps is, because there is no way to untie the personal responsibility that comes with those roles.

Tanks are thrust into a leadership position. They are forced to set the pace (or let dps run roughshod over them and pull at a whim which only makes tanking less fun). They are expected to know the dungeon layout, the pulls, the boss mechanics, and to pull fast enough and big enough that itchy trigger finger dps don't go off the rails, but not so fast or big that they can't handle surviving. Which brings us to...

Healers are expected to not only keep the party healthy, but to also contribute dps and/or buffs (AST/SCH). Particularly, healers are expected to be able to keep the tank alive amidst large pulls. Pulls that SB content have made far more punishing on tanks than what we grew accustomed to in Heavensward with overgeared everyone and perhaps more forgiving dungeons (in some cases).

All dps are expected to do is... well.. to dps. They don't even have to be particularly good at it (but its really nice when they are). Their role has no personal responsibility attached outside of that which tanks and healers also have (not standing in bad, observing and reacting to mechanics). At least as far as dungeons are concerned, DPS have no added pressure on them to excel at their role whereas tanks and healers do. Obviously enrage timers in savage content are another animal entirely. DPS also have the epeen tape measure of big numbers.

So those who wish to avoid any extra personal responsibility and those who need their ego stroked by a 3rd party meter, are going to choose the dps role. Now this is not to say all dps are like that. Just as many if not more simply enjoy the role of dps for a variety of reasons that have little to do with responsibility or ego. But those who are drawn to dps for those two reasons inflate the pool of dps and obviously aren't filling the pool of tanks and healers. Making tanking and healing "more fun" isn't going to get these people to change their stripes, but bribing them with the AiN might... at least when they're in need if tier 6 materia :P

[Wrecktangle]

To get a player like me to tank its easy. Make it a DPS class that has extra things to do (i.e. threat, defensives, etc.). If tanks are generic and boring to play, not many are going to enjoy it.

PLD is finally enough fun to play so I'm tanking full time now. The more responsibility and roles and actions you throw at me the better (eventual limit/wall notwithstanding).

If a tanks job was to just merely hold aggro I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole. I'd rather chew paint for free.

[Kazgrel]

That's rather silly. IME if you're gonna do Hunts, you drop what you're doing within seconds to get OTW, esp. for an S-Rank. I think that was plenty of time to let even the slow loaders get in the zone and shout for invites. If you had a full party ready to go, I don't see that as 'pulling early'. If someone really wanted you to wait, that was on them to make sure it was relayed. Otherwise, it's one hunt. Not the end of the world if you miss it.

This is pretty much my mentality concerning hunts over the past 2+ years to a T. Was wondering if maybe it was something native to Balmung, hence my request for perspective.

[Kaelwryn]

So I just got the dark knight sword from that fate boss in yanxia. Besides that and the fox fate what other fates give unique rewards?

Evil Seed in the Fringe gives music, There's a long fate chain in Azim Steppes that gives a housing item and the mammoth fate gives a Triple Triad Card, there's the Ixion Fate in the lochs that you had to do like 6 times at the least to get him as a mount. Believe there's a couple more, but can't think of them atm.

[Kazgrel]

On Jenova it's generally considered rude to pull while there is still a good trickle of "Invite!" shouts going on within the zone. Once that trickle has slowed down or ended it's generally no longer an "early" pull. Usually about 40-50 people will be around before a hunt gets pulled. There are some people who have a habit of pulling the second enough people are around to where it looks safe to pull. They get called out usually. It's especially bad on the rare mobs/hunts/FATEs.

Oh, definitely; if we get shout backs from people on the way (or if they have a party member who says "2 otw" or such), we wait. We don't get 40-50 people for A ranks here, but have a S rank call go out (or even better/worse, Ixion) and you get damn near all of Zalera en route...which apparently takes 10-15 minutes, which means the mob gets pulled by 5-7 minutes of waiting. Can't count the number of times I've sat in a zone after a S rank kill and literally 2-3 mins after it's dead, you see a /sh for invite. I mean...are people taking their dog for a walk when hunts are called and expecting to get back in time for the kill?

- - - Updated - - -

I have no idea.

Don't worry about it. There will always be calls of "early pull". There are always a percentage of people who just heard the call a second ago so in their mind you pulled early. Even if you waited an hour.

Two or three min sounds good to me. Once you have enough people to do the job, wait another minute or two and go for it.

Edit:
I also like the above idea of "once INV shouts start to trickle off". Even then there is always someone who will think it's early. Just shrug it off if he decides to be an ass about it.

One particular LS I'm in seems to house all the salt when it comes to hunts; were it not for the fact said LS also has the most relays/call outs by far of any hunt LS I've seen, I would dump it in a heartbeat. Worst case, I may go about setting up my own LS, but there's enough hunt LSes to go around that doing so would be a waste.

- - - Updated - - -

Evil Seed in the Fringe gives music, There's a long fate chain in Azim Steppes that gives a housing item and the mammoth fate gives a Triple Triad Card, there's the Ixion Fate in the lochs that you had to do like 6 times at the least to get him as a mount. Believe there's a couple more, but can't think of them atm.

The big snail boss FATE in Ruby Sea also drops a music scroll. There's also another boss FATE in Lochs, but I don't recall if it has a unique reward from it besides an achievement.

[Ragnarocket]

The big snail boss FATE in Ruby Sea also drops a music scroll. There's also another boss FATE in Lochs, but I don't recall if it has a unique reward from it besides an achievement.

The Lochs one (Tall Tale) gives a Triple Triad card as well.

[Kazgrel]

The Lochs one (Tall Tale) gives a Triple Triad card as well.

That was it! I could picture the mob in my mind (I call them Muk since they look just like that Pokemon from forever ago), but the rest of the details eluded me.

[Aruhen]

Man I'm getting so triggered by people in Susano extreme groups. Don't join a farm group if you don't know how to do the simplest mechanic in the fight, walking to the other side with the lighting. The amount of people I've see who fail at that begs the quest if they were carried or not.

For anyone who hunts somewhat actively, about how long do people on your server wait before pulling? Apparently waiting 3 mins after arriving at a hunt call out, shouting "Anyone on the way for <t> <pos>?" (with the <t> being the hunt mob) then pulling if no one responds after 15 seconds is considered the actions of an early puller.

On Cactuar we usually wait 2-3 minutes. What boggles my mind is when there's a hunt within 10 seconds of flying time from the nearest crystal and people still bitch after five minutes of it being called out. Like what the fuck are you doing, painting your garage? I'm sorry but I don't want to wait forever for your crappy internet/pc to load in or while you go take out your dog and come back.

[StrawberryZebra]

It sounds like you're assuming only healers would swap to tank to take advantage of the AiN. But what happens when some dps bleed off to try tanking to get those AiN rewards? Things balance out that's what.

I made the assumption that, this early into the expansion, most people have leveled up their main job and perhaps one other. I know there are people who will be doing their best to hit 70 on them all ASAP, but for most people I'd say two or three at 70 is perhaps where they're at right now, especially with interest shifting towards completing Omega rather than leveling.

I also assumed that there are a group of people who are doing dungeons for the rewards - That includes the Tomestones you get as a daily reward for using the roulettes, by the way.

So those who wish to avoid any extra personal responsibility and those who need their ego stroked by a 3rd party meter, are going to choose the dps role. Now this is not to say all dps are like that. Just as many if not more simply enjoy the role of dps for a variety of reasons that have little to do with responsibility or ego. But those who are drawn to dps for those two reasons inflate the pool of dps and obviously aren't filling the pool of tanks and healers.

I also assumed this was the case too. When you take all three of them into account, you've got a hard-core of DPS who are never going to make the switch no matter what, a group of people who will switch if the rewards are enticing enough and the people who are already playing a tank or healer. The main group causing changes in the numbers being the people who've leveled up a tank/healer and who are reward hunting.

Maybe I'm wrong? These are just generalised assumptions afterall without any hard evidence to back them up. I do feel a lot more confident in saying that, as things stand, the people who are willing and able to queue as Tank and Heal is massively disproportionate to the people willing and able to DPS.

To get a player like me to tank its easy. Make it a DPS class that has extra things to do (i.e. threat, defensives, etc.). If tanks are generic and boringto play, not many are going to enjoy it.

As strange as it sounds, I think MMO's could do with stealing mechanics from MOBA's to make their tanks more interesting. Guys like DOTA's Tidehunter can show up out and instantly turn a fight around with his ultimate. Earthshaker brings a unique mechanic in the form of creating an impassable wall on the battlefield. LoL's Alistar can forcefully relocate enemies away from his team.

Why don't we have cool, interesting, tanking mechanics like that in MMO's? I mean, I know we're probably never going to get Dark Souls combat in an MMO, but there's been a very noticable lack of "new" mechanics that have been added to the genre in a long time.

Maybe we should also be moving away from the tank being "That dude with the armour" too. Thematically there's nothing wrong with the idea of, say... A Mage tanking by creating magical barriers for himself and what not. Gandalf, the Wizardiest Wizard that has ever Wizarded, tanked a Balrog in the LotR movies afterall. A Battlemage tank with a sword in one hand and a staff in the other could have a lot of appeal to it.

Or perhaps a Matrix Dodging Rogue tank? Or what about a Hunter with a Pet that can tank? Guys in armour only fulfill one class fantasy, by expanding on the number of fantasies that are capable of tanking we open up the role to players with different playstyle and asthetic tastes.

[Kazgrel]

On Cactuar we usually wait 2-3 minutes. What boggles my mind is when there's a hunt within 10 seconds of flying time from the nearest crystal and people still bitch after five minutes of it being called out. Like what the fuck are you doing, painting your garage? I'm sorry but I don't want to wait forever for your crappy internet/pc to load in or while you go take out your dog and come back.

One of the faster, yet consistent, puller of hunts on Balmung plays on a PS4. So even PS4 folks can get to hunts plenty quickly. So I'm highly skeptical of it being a crappy PC or PS4 issue. I think that given time, people will learn to move their asses once a hunt is called. It is very rare that I miss out on a hunt due to not getting there in time, even if I'm not actively hunting. In those events where I do fail to get there in time, I generally just shrug and figure I'll get there a bit sooner next time instead of crying about it in 2+ LS and/or shout.

[Aruhen]

One of the faster, yet consistent, puller of hunts on Balmung plays on a PS4. So even PS4 folks can get to hunts plenty quickly. So I'm highly skeptical of it being a crappy PC or PS4 issue. I think that given time, people will learn to move their asses once a hunt is called. It is very rare that I miss out on a hunt due to not getting there in time, even if I'm not actively hunting. In those events where I do fail to get there in time, I generally just shrug and figure I'll get there a bit sooner next time instead of crying about it in 2+ LS and/or shout.

I had some guy lose his shit the other day when I told them to not be so slow next time. Kept going on about how I didn't understand anything because I'm a "city boy". Bitch please I've lived across the european, asian and american continents and lived on a farm in a post war country. I've experienced everything when it comes to crappy infrastructure.

[Wrecktangle]

As strange as it sounds, I think MMO's could do with stealing mechanics from MOBA's to make their tanks more interesting. Guys like DOTA's Tidehunter can show up out and instantly turn a fight around with his ultimate. Earthshaker brings a unique mechanic in the form of creating an impassable wall on the battlefield. LoL's Alistar can forcefully relocate enemies away from his team.

Why don't we have cool, interesting, tanking mechanics like that in MMO's? I mean, I know we're probably never going to get Dark Souls combat in an MMO, but there's been a very noticable lack of "new" mechanics that have been added to the genre in a long time.

Maybe we should also be moving away from the tank being "That dude with the armour" too. Thematically there's nothing wrong with the idea of, say... A Mage tanking by creating magical barriers for himself and what not. Gandalf, the Wizardiest Wizard that has ever Wizarded, tanked a Balrog in the LotR movies afterall. A Battlemage tank with a sword in one hand and a staff in the other could have a lot of appeal to it.

Or perhaps a Matrix Dodging Rogue tank? Or what about a Hunter with a Pet that can tank? Guys in armour only fulfill one class fantasy, by expanding on the number of fantasies that are capable of tanking we open up the role to players with different playstyle and asthetic tastes.

Tanks just need robust DPS like gameplay, fun to use healer like utility and meaningful tanking tools. Yes this makes them "too powerful", but that is the best and easiest way to have people who might be on the fence to try it out. Rewards don't get someone "maining" a tank. It gets them using it for that specific content (a la dungeon roulette, but probably not trial, pvp, etc.).

I'm not opposed to varying the tank archetypes as you suggest. I've posited BLU as a whip wielding light armor tank that uses creature magic to bolster its defenses and enfeeble foes to tank successfully. As long as you can justify the thematics of it, the mechanics aren't that hard to drum up behind the scenes.

[Kazgrel]

I had some guy lose his shit the other day when I told them to not be so slow next time. Kept going on about how I didn't understand anything because I'm a "city boy". Bitch please I've lived across the european, asian and american continents and lived on a farm in a post war country. I've experienced everything when it comes to crappy infrastructure.

That's when you ask them if they're on a 28.8k or 56k modem, cause even on the crappy 3 mb DSL I had for most of a decade (before getting a new house where I can get up to 100 mb cable), I had no issues moving to hunts in time. 95% of my play time during vanilla WoW was on dial-up...

[Melsiren]

To get a player like me to tank its easy. Make it a DPS class that has extra things to do (i.e. threat, defensives, etc.). If tanks are generic and boring to play, not many are going to enjoy it.

PLD is finally enough fun to play so I'm tanking full time now. The more responsibility and roles and actions you throw at me the better (eventual limit/wall notwithstanding).

If a tanks job was to just merely hold aggro I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole. I'd rather chew paint for free.

A former protection paladin theory crafter who used to frequent this very site put it much better than I ever can. Tanks need to be able to make meaningful game play decisions that real impact. This can come in many forms ( I will only state two), let a tank make trade offs so they can do competitive damage in exchange for their passive survival. Make it so things like FF Tank busters are harsher and more frequent so a tank really feels they control their own life instead of being at the mercy of a healer.

I personally like the combination of both, I like a tanking style where bads do bad damage, and are made of paper mache. Now that's my inner elitist coming out, if a role was that punishing few would play it. So I know what I want will never come to be on a mainstream MMO.

The issue is, DPS get so butt hurt if a tank can do numbers that can even be slightly comparable. I've also seen healers whine the moment a tank can hold their own with their own life. (Keep in mind I mean across all the MMO's I've played, this is not pertain to FF) Which ends with tanks doing less than thrilling damage, and sturdy enough to survive autos.

The tanking role, should not be a role that exists so DPS, and healers can have fun and enjoy the game.

Tanks need a fun and engaging gameplay with meaningful decisions that you (the tank) can feel the impact of.



... RIP vengeance, never forget.

[StrawberryZebra]

Tanks just need robust DPS like gameplay, fun to use healer like utility and meaningful tanking tools.

As it stands at the moment, Tanks already do have gameplay patterns pretty similar to melee DPS. The one difference being their lack of positional attacks, which is a mechanic I feel shouldn't be as widespread as it is but thats one for another time.

What they're really lacking is those huge high parts to their game, those times where you've done everything right and you get that huge payoff for it, or when you've synced all your cooldowns and are doing massive damage. They don't exist for tanks under normal circumstances.

I'm not opposed to varying the tank archetypes as you suggest. I've posited BLU as a whip wielding light armor tank that uses creature magic to bolster its defenses and enfeeble foes to tank successfully. As long as you can justify the thematics of it, the mechanics aren't that hard to drum up behind the scenes.

BLU as a tank would be something I could get behind. Having an actual spell casting tank would offer a tanking class for players who dislike how the current melee-orentated tanks work. As you say, getting the mechanics down behind the scenes is easy enough as long as the theming is there.

The only limit is how many archetypes you can reasonably fit into the role.

Tanks need a fun and engaging gameplay with meaningful decisions that you (the tank) can feel the impact of.

Which is another issue that needs to be solved. The line between a great tank and one thats merely good enough is very hard to distinguish.

The best way this has been solved, imo, was the Blood DK back in Cata. Even with relatively poor gear, I could get through a Heroic with no healer by using cooldowns and the heal from Death Strike and Rune Tap well. Hell I was frequently outshielding and outhealing better geared DK's by a factor of SIX at times - Just because I was playing better. That kind of thing just feels amazing from a player perspective, both you and your healers really do notice the difference. Unfortunately, it's quite hard to recreate in other games.

[dope_danny]

Blech, gotten to the point where BOT farms Persimmon to lvl itself and CRP. and its farmed in the swamp area of gyr abania full of those fish monsters and woodmen. so basically you stay stealthed or get attacked constantly. Just slowing you down for the whole farming process. laaame.