(Possible Spoilers?) Jaina Proudmoore Betrays The Alliance?

[Leih]

I think you've been playing a different game than I have.

[Evangeliste]

I think you've been playing a different game than I have.

Go to Shadowmoon Valley and see the chain quest about Death Knights, then look to Wrath that came out after.
Play Timeless Isle that includes Kairoz and Garrosh, you using Sands of Time from Caverns of Time to help replenish the Hourglass Kairoz gave you, the same one used by both travel to Warlords of Draenor.
Here's http://www.wowhead.com/quest=819/chens-empty-keg that quest for Chen. Linked to Chen in the RTS.
This http://wow.gamepedia.com/Umber is the NPC in Moonglade before Cataclysm and Worgens, who said "You smell good" and "The Denmother would like to see you" in textual form prior.

So no, we haven't played the different game. You've not spotted things though. I don't see how after Theramore's destruction, an entire expansion and one after failed to note more on an Old God worming his way into Jaina.


Jaina's betrayal will come on her own merit, not because of an Old God "filled her crater".

[Leih]

So no, we haven't played the different game. You've not spotted things though. I don't see how after Theramore's destruction, an entire expansion and one after failed to note more on an Old God worming his way into Jaina.

No you're just thinking about it too hard. Sometimes ideas are planned out through multiple expansions. Sometimes they come about on a whim. Sometimes they change due to player feedback.

Blizzard operate on the rule of cool. They're self confessed to this - sometimes they come up with something that sounds like it'd be awesome or make a cool story or piece of gameplay and they're perfectly happy to twist or even outright retcon lore or previous events to make it happen.

The Warcraft universe has a long, long history of this. Prime example: See the origins of the Draenei.

Never take anything for granted with Warcraft, because nothing's set in stone.

Just on an aside, I said multiple times in this topic I personally don't think the quote is addressing Jaina. I think it's most likely about Azeroth. I just put forward a theory that could be used to apply it to Jaina as a possibility. No need to jam your viewpoint down my throat, there's nothing to convince me of here.

Jaina's betrayal will come on her own merit, not because of an Old God "filled her crater".

Oh my. Putting it like that sounds pretty wrong

[Evangeliste]

No you're just thinking about it too hard. Sometimes ideas are planned out through multiple expansions. Sometimes they come about on a whim. Sometimes they change due to player feedback.

Blizzard operate on the rule of cool. They're self confessed to this - sometimes they come up with something that sounds like it'd be awesome or make a cool story or piece of gameplay and they're perfectly happy to twist or even outright retcon lore or previous events to make it happen.

The Warcraft universe has a long, long history of this. Prime example: See the origins of the Draenei.

Never take anything for granted with Warcraft, because nothing's set in stone.

Just on an aside, I said multiple times in this topic I personally don't think the quote is addressing Jaina. I think it's most likely about Azeroth. I just put forward a theory that could be used to apply it to Jaina as a possibility. No need to jam your viewpoint down my throat, there's nothing to convince me of here.




Oh my. Putting it like that sounds pretty wrong

Not thinking too hard. You've pretty much said what I have, this kind of thing doesn't happen overnight, they do plan it even if it's cool but going to the long-awaited Kul'Tiras to raise Mary hell by her own sorcery is more cooler with a good girl going bad, then the typical "he made her do it!" ploy.

Jaina doing a Deathwing v2 isn't going to be received that well unless they actually make it decent, which I've seen a fair few vocal people both lore lovers or not, have quite literally shunned things like Thrall as Green Jesus or Illidan as this Mary Sue Xe'ra loves and getting a redemption story he doesn't deserve.

And yeah, it is crude. But that's the thing, people don't stop and think at actually what's being said... About Jaina's crater being filled.

[Leih]

And yeah, it is crude. But that's the thing, people don't stop and think at actually what's being said... About Jaina's crater being filled.

Confirmed, Ill'gynoth wasn't an agent of the old gods at all, he works for Thrall.

[Mehrunes]

So because he stopped being there a few years ago he has no sense of what sylvanas' goals are? And somehow that means that Jaina is actually being referenced and she is going to betray the Alliance to the forsaken? I have no idea what the argument is here.

He doesn't exactly talk about goals though, does he now? He talks about developments that happened later and methods in which they occurred. Rather specifically at that. And dafuq are you talking about in regards to Jaina? Congrats on mixing up two different points (one wasn't even 100% mine because I didn't even mention Jaina in what you quoted for fuck's sake) in order to handwave them both. 'Twas super effective.

I wonder if people actually read the stuff they write before posting.

Ahahaha, good one there Żulkhan.

But he knows what Jaina is up to somehow? I mean what the fuck are you guys talking about. He served under Sylvanas for years. Why would he magically forget everything he knew about her? This line of logic makes zero sense.

Yeah, because the argument was totes about forgetting and everythings. Jesus Christ.

I wonder the same thing about what the "Jaina is going to betray the Alliance" idiots post.

Once again, contrary to your blatant misuse of the word truce there is no truce between factions and as things stand now, contrary to your actual argument, Sylvanas is in no position to betray the Alliance.

[Zulkhan]

Ahahaha, good one there Żulkhan.

I mean, I hope that's the case, because if they actually read it and say "wow this shit is c00l !!!" than I'm genuinely worried.

[Mehrunes]

I mean, I hope that's the case, because if they actually read it and say "wow this shit is c00l !!!" than I'm genuinely worried.

Worried? Way ahead of you mon. I already went through the stages of grief in regards to the human race this realization has given me and it's a mixture of acceptance and shaking my head for me.

It's surely and entirely dependent from the ability Sylvanas is able to show in dealing with opposed views and opinions. I doubt she would literally alienate people but, on the other hand, I don't see Sylvanas particularly capable on that front. In fact, politically speaking Sylvanas always stroke me as somewhat incompetent, in rather strong constrast to her military efficiency. She's pragmatic and ruthless but not necessarily smart, more notably when it comes to deal with people beyond blackmails and bargains.

Ehh, she united two waves of Forsaken around her persona for over a decade and got two faction of Horde's former enemies into the Horde. Seems good enough. Short of Thrall, no solid politician comes to mind as far as Horde characters are concerned.

She was the number 1 suspect for Vol'jin death

I was sure it's random Felguard #5315

She was dealing with Helya for unknow reason

Immortality for herself and the Forsaken is a long known reason of hers.

Helya has tentacle and probably related to N'zoth or Old God or whatever so maybe Sylvanas had some strange pact with her.

And yet Helya's Kvaldir fought against the N'zoth-aligned Naga in Cataclysm.

[yetgdhfgh]

Well we still havent seen old Mal'ganis have we?

If we truly are crushing the Legion where is he?

[Mehrunes]

Also she is "puzzled" not shocked that they "trusted" her, because I'm quite sure Vol'jin knew something and the "loas" whispering him are probably more than we can though

And the reason she was rooted in place while she was computing what just happened was actually her internally laughing in a maniacal manner.

She rebelled against Odyn after getting transformed into a Valkyr and she helped Loken to imprison Odyn, and we know what Loken did in woltk and why.

so....maybe......

So we know that LOKEN had ties with Old Gods.

We also know Loken was rather secretive about his ties with Old Gods and that's why he imprisoned Odyn in the first place.

[Lupinemancer]

Most definitely. That's what it comes down to.

You can argue for her being a childish annoying one sided character if that tickles your fancy.

Making up something about a character doesn't make it reality. You might not like her, but saying she is something she is not, only makes you sound like a hateful whiny little kid.

[Mehrunes]

Can't wait for Sylvanas starting to scream "I'll mass-murder the world in order to save it!"

Who's going to be the god she'll mind control with her Geass though? The Void Lords, perhaps? Sylvanas - savior of the universe confirmed.

[Zoibert the Bear]

Making up something about a character doesn't make it reality. You might not like her, but saying she is something she is not, only makes you sound like a hateful whiny little kid.

Or makes you a mighty knight wearing denial armor. Isn't having an opinion a great thing?

You liking a character does not make it a good character. She's awful.

[Zulkhan]

Ehh, she united two waves of Forsaken around her persona for over a decade and got two faction of Horde's former enemies into the Horde. Seems good enough. Short of Thrall, no solid politician comes to mind as far as Horde characters are concerned.

I can't think of "solid politicians" in general when it comes to WoW as you would need to go way deeper in writing to properly develop such a character but based on past events I see Sylvanas quite low on the hierarchy. The leadership of the Forsaken was Sylvanas' first step ever into politics but overall the Forsaken always looked as a people relatively easy to rally while harder to keep in check. Sylvanas did surely well on the easy part but failed several times on the hardest, somewhat struggling to properly learn from past mistakes.

Leading Forsaken and Blood Elves into the Horde was a noticeable feat, even though that proves Sylvanas' taste for diplomacy rather than politics (in contrast to Garrosh who visibly and horribly sucked on both).

[Mehrunes]

I can't think of "solid politicians" in general when it comes to WoW as you would need to go way deeper in writing to properly develop such a character but based on past events I see Sylvanas quite low on the hierarchy. The leadership of the Forsaken was Sylvanas' first step ever into politics but overall the Forsaken always looked as a people relatively easy to rally while harder to keep in check. Sylvanas did surely well on the easy part but failed several times on the hardest, somewhat struggling to properly learn from past mistakes.

Well, she did on some occasions. Sending envoys to check up on suspicious underlings as was the case with Stillwater, or personally keeping an eye on them like she did with Koltira was probably a result of her getting betrayed a one time too many. And for a faction as large as Forsaken, she didn't fail to keep them in check all that much. Admittedly, the results of her failures in that department was large on certain occasions, but Cairne repeatedly failed to keep Grimtotem in check, Thrall failed to keep the Warsong out of Ashenvale and put a shitstain in power, Vol'jin had Zalazane problem for years, Lor'themar had Halduron working with Vereesa behind his back, the whole High Elves exile and the guy that helped Garrosh with the Divine Bell theft. In case of Blood Elves, going back in time to Kael'thas there's also Dar'khan and Kael'thas. WoW is full of faction betrayals.

Leading Forsaken and Blood Elves into the Horde was a noticeable feat, even though that proves Sylvanas' taste for diplomacy rather than politics (in contrast to Garrosh who visibly and horribly sucked on both).

Eh, I'd consider diplomacy a subject of politics. Pretty much the fundamentals of international politics. And in a wider meaning of diplomacy, also relevant to lower levels of politics.

[Aucald]

Hmmmm, judging the leaders in WoW as politicians is a pretty difficult chasm to cross. Sylvanas doesn't strike me as a great one since her tenure as a leader has quite a few pretty large coup attempts or rebellions to her time. She misjudged Varimathras and Putress and nearly lost the Undercity to them, she appointed Warden Stillwater in Hillsbrad who went off the deep end and started playing with Necromancy in distinctly odd ways. She was killed by one of Gilnean leaders she raised into undeath and later had to put down him and his peers. She has progressively isolated her own peers among the other racial leaders to the point that she is still openly mistrusted.

Not that she's alone in the echelons of bad politicians in WoW by any means. Varian practically alienated everyone in the Alliance in his early days, even the long-suffering Malfurion and Tyrande. Speaking of Malfurion and Tyrande, they might set the record for allowing saboteurs and turncoats to be close to the deepest workings of the Night Elven nation-state. Thrall didn't understand his own people very well, misjudging what they wanted in a leader on multiple levels as well as orchestrating a social situation that made Garrosh's "True Horde" almost unavoidable. The list of missteps goes on and on.

Oddly enough, the best true politician among the racial leaders I can think of is Jastor Gallywix. As odious and unlikable as he might be he's somehow contrived to remain in power despite enslaving his own people during the exodus from Kezan, sitting on his heels during every major Horde campaign since the Cataclysm, and supports Garrosh Hellscream in his goals right up until the crystallization of Vol'jin's insurrection where he finally throws support behind the rebellion. Consummate politician despite being a horrible leader and individual.

[Zulkhan]

WoW is full of faction betrayals

I see from where you come from, however the most notable difference with all these other examples is that most of Sylvanas' issues could have probably been avoidable, as she granted way too much freedom of action to individuals that, by all means, needed to be carefully kept in check and whose overall motives and characters to be better understood. I'm not even talking of betrayals like the ones of Putress or Stillwater (as they could be defined as not-so-predictable) but rather the ones of Varimathras and Godfrey, two blatantly shady individuals brought to join Sylvanas' ranks in rather unusual circumstances, people that would have gladly slit Sylvanas' throat in more "favorable" ones and whose allegiance to her was partially forced and partially dictated by naked convenience.

The red flags were abundant yet Sylvanas put an inexplicable amount of trust on both, not like she truly trusted them but more like she was convinced for real that she could make an use of them and they would have just let them be used that way without any consequence or risk. It looked like a mix of recklessness and some strong lacking in character judging.

On this specific regard, the only valuable comparison with the other examples would be the Magatha/Grimtotem situation, even though Cairne knew Magatha very well and simply applied a "keep friends close and enemies closer" kind of policy, one that eventually backfired when Magatha finally got a valuable tool to exploit (Garrosh) in a manner no one managed to predict.

Eh, I'd consider diplomacy a subject of politics. Pretty much the fundamentals of international politics. And in a wider meaning of diplomacy, also relevant to lower levels of politics.

I'll not say these fields are utterly unrelated but there's definitely a different set of skills needed when it comes to diplomacy compared to foreign and especially domestic politics. Diplomacy is specifically meant to create the ground for politics to happen.

[FuxieDK]

Ofc is talking about Sylvanas.

She was the number 1 suspect for Vol'jin death

By who? Alliance?

No one, in the Horde (NPCs or players) have ever entertained that idea..

[Deleted]

By who? Alliance?

No one, in the Horde (NPCs or players) have ever entertained that idea..

Well horde npc =\= players

[DeltrusDisc]

i still want Anduin to become a shadow paladin......oh death knight - oh lich king?

...

Anduin is more a Priest than Paladin, though I must admit, the way he picked up his daddy's sword makes it seem like he might go melee.

AND GOOD.

I don't want Anduin sullying the Priesthood's reputation with his pansy-ness any longer.