Low level dungeons ...

[f4ncybear]

the old dungeons are kinda fun but have been streamlined so as to "not get lost" remember old wailing caverns ?

You mean Sunken Temple? People still get lost in BRD, the fact that it's divided only added to confusion. I play this game since 2005 and still have no idea how to get from cell blocks to living quarters.

As for the leveling dungeons. I leveled 9 characters in dungeons back to back in WoD. There are only 2 problems. Wrath dungeon level distribution (only 2 dungeons 68-72), Queue times at Vanilla/BC, Wrath/Cata cutoffs, healers all go to the next expansion at 58, 68, meanwhile DPS sits in long queues for LBRS/Halls of Lightning.

All this "Everything dies too fast, I don't have time for my dots to tick" is not a leveling dungeon problem, it is an overarching game system problem. And it is addressed at the max level via affixes in M+.

[Jimson]

You mean Sunken Temple? People still get lost in BRD, the fact that it's divided only added to confusion. I play this game since 2005 and still have no idea how to get from cell blocks to living quarters.

As for the leveling dungeons. I leveled 9 characters in dungeons back to back in WoD. There are only 2 problems. Wrath dungeon level distribution (only 2 dungeons 68-72), Queue times at Vanilla/BC, Wrath/Cata cutoffs, healers all go to the next expansion at 58, 68, meanwhile DPS sits in long queues for LBRS/Halls of Lightning.

All this "Everything dies too fast, I don't have time for my dots to tick" is not a leveling dungeon problem, it is an overarching game system problem. And it is addressed at the max level via affixes in M+.

He means WC. It was very possible to get lost in a couple different ways there. Although ST was a pain also.

@OP, they're not going to fix low-level dungeons because leveling is not and has not been a concern of theirs for years. The overwhelming majority of new content occurs in the latest expansion and at level cap. The one time they tried to mess with leveling content was pretty widely considered a disaster (Cata).

Chasing a tank may not be fun, but it's a means to an end. Try soloing the instance if you want to take your time and have a challenge.

[WoWGoneBad]

Okay if you believe this, then tell me how what I proposed in the original post won't fix this.

Also the 10 - 100 content are not useless to 75 - 85% of the playerbase. You can still do them and enjoy doing them regardless of how many times you've run them in the past. The problem is that they keep getting less enjoyable every expansion because of inflation.

None of your proposals will fix it because Blizzard will never implement them. Blizzard knows that the players are all about the end game... 60+ 65+ 70 + 85+ 90+ 100+ 110+ ALL of the endgame levels are all that the players and Blizz care about.

So they will NEVER touch the lower lvl dungeons because of the backlash they will get from the endgame players that same 75-85% of the player base that want to Raid at Endgame not deal with longer kills in outdated, useless(except for lvling) no longer relevant dungeons. So all of your proposals are moot....

Belive me I am 100% in our corner on this, as a caster player I want to see use of my abilities just as much as you do, but in dungeons it will never happen until you reach those end game dungeons and raids where it 'matters'...... to the Larger player base. And I am being generous with the 75-85% I am sure it is higher that dont care for the lore, looks, feel, experience(not gained) or wonders of outdated no longer relevant dungeons. I miss them too dude but I have come to terms with it and get my visual fix on the real world of the game now.

[Haywire5714]

Ugh, okay time to respond to some of these:

Low level dungeons are basically locked into LFR mode. They exist to be run through once for the story but not to be played like instances.

Barely any players run through these dungeons only once for the story. They are instances, that can be played like instances, and can be enjoyed like instances, by every player, playing every class/spec/role. But only if the proper changes are made.

The major flaw I see with this is how Blizzard would determine the correct hp% and xp%. Who do they cater to? The newer players who are learning their class? The veterans who are leveling more alts? If you cater to the new players, odds are the full heirloom alts will still blast through it. If you cater to the veterans, new players in green/blue gear have a chance of finding it too time consuming and lose interest or not be able to finish it. 2m+ boss fights without much to do are mind numbing in 5m content and only increasing the health wont change that for plenty of people. Also, putting it off as Blizzard's job, how do you know you will think that's enough? There's no telling if Blizzard went with a change like this that you will be happy with the choices they make.

Blizzard would tune health with the assumption that pretty much every group will consist of 1 or 2 people with heirlooms. The vast majority of the groups would be able to complete dungeons with this kind of tuning. Obviously there will always be the lowest common denominator that will struggle in the same way that the lowest common denominator struggles right now and will always struggle no matter what. But just because there is that small chance for a group to be formed that's full of complete shitters doesn't mean that a change that would benefit the majority of the playerbase shouldn't be implemented.

Additionally even if the complete shitter groups couldn't complete the dungeon in a reasonable time they would still get a lot of xp for what they have completed because the mob xp would be really high.

On the other hand: Why care? Quicker dungeons also mean quicker leveling. I go sticky on the healer or just go around collecting loot if there is nothing I can do.

Quicker dungeons does not mean quicker leveling at all. I can't believe how many people keep saying this. All you have to do is read the original post that I wrote ... here I'll even post the line for you:

"Increase xp gain from enemies to match current leveling speed."

It's a 12 year old game, not many people want to have to try in a low level dungeon they have done a hundred+ times.

Oh look another person that didn't read my original post (or didn't think before commenting). The goal is not to make the dungeons more difficult, I just want the health to be increased so that the dpsers (especially multidotters) can contribute. The difficulty would increase very slightly for the tank and healer because they would have to stop once and a while to press their buttons, but the overall damage output from everything would remain the same. You can still chainpull a shit ton of mobs to your hearts content ... this wouldn't change.

I also disagree with your point that most players don't want to try in these dungeons. I don't think that most people want to go into a dungeon and not play their character, that seems absolutely absurd to me. And if we assume a scenario where you are correct why wouldn't blizzard just make it so that everything has 1 hp and does no damage? It is your assumption that people don't want to try when they do these dungeons so this change would make a lot of sense for Blizzard wouldn't it?

None of your proposals will fix it because Blizzard will never implement them. Blizzard knows that the players are all about the end game... 60+ 65+ 70 + 85+ 90+ 100+ 110+ ALL of the endgame levels are all that the players and Blizz care about.

So they will NEVER touch the lower lvl dungeons because of the backlash they will get from the endgame players that same 75-85% of the player base that want to Raid at Endgame not deal with longer kills in outdated, useless(except for lvling) no longer relevant dungeons. So all of your proposals are moot....

Belive me I am 100% in our corner on this, as a caster player I want to see use of my abilities just as much as you do, but in dungeons it will never happen until you reach those end game dungeons and raids where it 'matters'...... to the Larger player base. And I am being generous with the 75-85% I am sure it is higher that dont care for the lore, looks, feel, experience(not gained) or wonders of outdated no longer relevant dungeons. I miss them too dude but I have come to terms with it and get my visual fix on the real world of the game now.

If Blizzard knew for a fact (which they don't and you don't either) that nobody cared about low level dungeons they would just remove them from the game. But since we can take into account that people do que for these dungeons often and that its extremely unlikely for all (or even most) of them to completely dread doing it ... it's safe to say that you don't have any actual evidence that people only enjoy end game content and you're just talking nonsense.

[Tharkkun]

If Blizzard knew for a fact (which they don't and you don't either) that nobody cared about low level dungeons they would just remove them from the game. But since we can take into account that people do que for these dungeons often and that its extremely unlikely for all (or even most) of them to completely dread doing it ... it's safe to say that you don't have any actual evidence that people only enjoy end game content and you're just talking nonsense.

That's a pre-school approach. You don't just remove something from the game that is important for the story telling even if the majority of people rush through it just to get it over with for the 150th time. I don't enjoy any low level dungeons but they are by far the fastest way of leveling. Thus people endure them because they are a means to an end.

[Haywire5714]

That's a pre-school approach. You don't just remove something from the game that is important for the story telling even if the majority of people rush through it just to get it over with for the 150th time. I don't enjoy any low level dungeons but they are by far the fastest way of leveling. Thus people endure them because they are a means to an end.

If you think that most people can't get any enjoyment out of leveling their character through dungeons and rather they simply "endure" a week or more of doing something that they don't enjoy just to get to max level then your opinion is not based in reality.

[Nikkaszal]

Quicker dungeons does not mean quicker leveling at all. I can't believe how many people keep saying this. All you have to do is read the original post that I wrote ... here I'll even post the line for you:

"Increase xp gain from enemies to match current leveling speed."

It's hilarious how you've called out people for "not reading the post" when you yourself haven't read the replies.

It was stated very early in this thread that this is unfeasible. People in heirlooms already level twice or more during lowbie dungeon runs. If you want the dungeons extended, you suggested buffing mobs HP by 400%. Let's be generous and even knock that down to tripled.

So you're tripling the time it takes to complete, which means to compensate you'd need to earn triple the exp, right? So now you have people levelling six times or more in a single run.

You know what happens when you outlevel mobs? They go green, and offer vastly reduced exp... or even grey, offering nothing. And what happens next? People bail on a run in progress because they've outlevelled the dungeon before it fucking completes.

[Haywire5714]

It's hilarious how you've called out people for "not reading the post" when you yourself haven't read the replies.

It was stated very early in this thread that this is unfeasible. People in heirlooms already level twice or more during lowbie dungeon runs. If you want the dungeons extended, you suggested buffing mobs HP by 400%. Let's be generous and even knock that down to tripled.

So you're tripling the time it takes to complete, which means to compensate you'd need to earn triple the exp, right? So now you have people levelling six times or more in a single run.

You know what happens when you outlevel mobs? They go green, and offer vastly reduced exp... or even grey, offering nothing. And what happens next? People bail on a run in progress because they've outlevelled the dungeon before it fucking completes.

I've read every reply and responded to pretty much every reply (even the really stupid ones). But it looks like you haven't read my posts because I already answered this question. I'll quote it for you since you probably can't find it:

So you get people leveling 5 times in a single run instead of 2 or 3 and they drop and leave group mid run over and over, brilliant.

Tyrven stated this problem and I responded with this:

This is actually a good point, however it would only be problematic for the first few dungeons. At around level 25 - 30 you wouldn't be getting 5 levels in a run the xp would have slowed down to a point where that couldn't happen.

We have to also take into account that the hp of higher level instances won't need to be buffed by as much since those mobs don't die as fast as the ones in the super low level dungeons. Which makes this even less of an issue.

And then on top of that bmjclark proposed a possible solution on the first page for this already very minor problem. He said this:

Seems like a good idea to me. Maybe make the dungeons level scale up to like 5 levels or so just so that you don't out level them while you're in there and it'd be fine.

[Flurryfang]

Would be nice to play my character in these things and not just chase after the tank for the whole thing.

Buff hp of mobs by a shit ton (400%?)
Increase xp gain from enemies to match current leveling speed.





plz





Edit: I don't want dungeons to be harder, I just want to be able to contribute as a dpser.

Ohh i completly agree on this one. We have alot of problems atm with how the low lvl dungeons are designed and balaneced, and while some dungeons are actually alright balanced, they do give a rather poor amount of Exp, especially after you reach lvl 60 and up.

Giving the dungeon mobs/bosses more HP would actually be a welcoming thing and by increasing the exp gained by +50% in return would proberly help with the problem of people having to do +5 of a specific dungeon before outlvling it. I can see very little wrong with your suggestion and it would proberly help alot more then it would ever hurt...... If Blizzard would also just implement their leveling tech in the dungeons already, this would be a problemless solution.

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It's a 12 year old game, not many people want to have to try in a low level dungeon they have done a hundred+ times.

It is not a question about trying, it is a question about playing your class to its fullest. I think most players would actually enjoy being able to get 5 CP on a target as a rogue or actually being able to use a rotation as a MM hunter or a shadow priest. Atm things are killed by opening abilities and often get cleaved down by strong cleave classes before anybody can get to do much. Giving the mobs more HP would allow Afflc locks and shadow priests to actually dot their targets and do dmg before they are killed off.

Also, atm all players who are leveling through the LFD will end up running the same dungeons over and over again, because they don't get enough EXP. BRD is a farmed instance at this point and most players will do it nearly 15 times before hitting lvl 58. Would it not be nice to reduce the amount of times you have to que up and just increase the lenght of each instance accordingly?

[Echocho]

What you're looking for is the experience of a private server with Vanilla mechanics.

The dungeon experience on those servers is truly awesome, I really wish it could be like that again. Too bad the community on those servers are filled with basement dwelling elitist jerks. In some ways it's worse than the retail community.

[Nikkaszal]

The dungeon experience on those servers is truly awesome, I really wish it could be like that again. Too bad the community on those servers are filled with basement dwelling elitist jerks. In some ways it's worse than the retail community.

Oh yeah it's super fun to play as a Vanilla Ret Pally where your "rotation" consists almost entirely of auto attacking something to death with SoComm up, and using Judgment on cooldown... until you OoM after every mob.

[Deleted]

I spent 2 hours and 20 minutes in queue as a level 67 mage. I only play 5 man dungeons, not fun, at all.

[Tharkkun]

If you think that most people can't get any enjoyment out of leveling their character through dungeons and rather they simply "endure" a week or more of doing something that they don't enjoy just to get to max level then your opinion is not based in reality.

The game is 13 years old. There's rarely ever new players so you're talking about players that have already run these dungeons hundreds of times already. I started 3 weeks before live in open beta. I've done lore master pre-cata and post cata as well. I've grinded dungeons for reputation on multiple toons. There's nothing exciting about leveling at this point outside of the new expansions which tell a fresh story.

It's great that you're enjoying them. Props to you. But most people don't at this point.

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Ohh i completly agree on this one. We have alot of problems atm with how the low lvl dungeons are designed and balaneced, and while some dungeons are actually alright balanced, they do give a rather poor amount of Exp, especially after you reach lvl 60 and up.

Giving the dungeon mobs/bosses more HP would actually be a welcoming thing and by increasing the exp gained by +50% in return would proberly help with the problem of people having to do +5 of a specific dungeon before outlvling it. I can see very little wrong with your suggestion and it would proberly help alot more then it would ever hurt...... If Blizzard would also just implement their leveling tech in the dungeons already, this would be a problemless solution.

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It is not a question about trying, it is a question about playing your class to its fullest. I think most players would actually enjoy being able to get 5 CP on a target as a rogue or actually being able to use a rotation as a MM hunter or a shadow priest. Atm things are killed by opening abilities and often get cleaved down by strong cleave classes before anybody can get to do much. Giving the mobs more HP would allow Afflc locks and shadow priests to actually dot their targets and do dmg before they are killed off.

Also, atm all players who are leveling through the LFD will end up running the same dungeons over and over again, because they don't get enough EXP. BRD is a farmed instance at this point and most players will do it nearly 15 times before hitting lvl 58. Would it not be nice to reduce the amount of times you have to que up and just increase the lenght of each instance accordingly?

I wouldn't be surprised if Timewalking functionality and NPC scaling didn't apply to 1-100 and dungeons in the next expansion. It's not something they will implement in Legion though.

[Flarelaine]

Would be nice to play my character in these things and not just chase after the tank for the whole thing.

I feel ya. I leveled several characters as healers... Tank keeps running out of range, aggroes half the dungeon, dies for lack of heals, OMFG NOOB HEALER.

Yes, some kind of slowing would be nice.

Like 1% reduction in movement speed for each mob that you aggroed.

[Kuja]

Yeah, they are super easy. I've been doing a solo challenge, although with a pet tank and have managed so solo all instances so far at the level they are intended to do or earlier. Currently entering Cataclysm!

But perhaps heirlooms just make a huge difference, should try without them too.

What surprises me more is the massive boss difference when you compare a vanilla level 60 boss to a TBC boss that is level 62. Vanilla boss has 91k HP and an TBC boss 64k. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Imo leveling dungeons should be more challenging, and also more rewarding in return.

[Flurryfang]

The game is 13 years old. There's rarely ever new players so you're talking about players that have already run these dungeons hundreds of times already. I started 3 weeks before live in open beta. I've done lore master pre-cata and post cata as well. I've grinded dungeons for reputation on multiple toons. There's nothing exciting about leveling at this point outside of the new expansions which tell a fresh story.

It's great that you're enjoying them. Props to you. But most people don't at this point.

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I wouldn't be surprised if Timewalking functionality and NPC scaling didn't apply to 1-100 and dungeons in the next expansion. It's not something they will implement in Legion though.

If they don't put scaling into the game at 8.0, i will be really disappointed. The leveling experience is currently pretty shitty and it is lacking behind other MMOs leveling only because Blizzard don't want to put in extra features in the leveling system to improve it.

Having scaling will pretty much allow the solving of nearly all problems with the current leveling experience.

[Jimson]

If they don't put scaling into the game at 8.0, i will be really disappointed. The leveling experience is currently pretty shitty and it is lacking behind other MMOs leveling only because Blizzard don't want to put in extra features in the leveling system to improve it.

Having scaling will pretty much allow the solving of nearly all problems with the current leveling experience.

What kind of problems will scaling solve? Are people complaining that leveling takes too long? I for one am glad that every class I enjoy is >= lvl 100, and in fact I gave up on a monk after 6 levels and am struggling to roll a DK because I don't want to take another toon through a bunch of expansions.

[Flurryfang]

What kind of problems will scaling solve? Are people complaining that leveling takes too long? I for one am glad that every class I enjoy is >= lvl 100, and in fact I gave up on a monk after 6 levels and am struggling to roll a DK because I don't want to take another toon through a bunch of expansions.

Scaling would allow dungeons to give more exp and actually give a better experience. Scaling outside in world would allow players to actually lvl outside of dungeons with heirlooms and not outlvl a zone before finishing the storyline of that zone.

Leveling also takes too long atm at moments in the game. The days of getting something every or every 2nd lvl is over. You can get over 15 lvls at some points and not get anything new to play with. Scaling would not fix this, but it would allow a faster leveling experience, allow Blizzard to give more exp to quests and not fear for outleveling, and be the start of a possible improvement of the leveling experience.

[Jimson]

Scaling would allow dungeons to give more exp and actually give a better experience. Scaling outside in world would allow players to actually lvl outside of dungeons with heirlooms and not outlvl a zone before finishing the storyline of that zone.

Leveling also takes too long atm at moments in the game. The days of getting something every or every 2nd lvl is over. You can get over 15 lvls at some points and not get anything new to play with. Scaling would not fix this, but it would allow a faster leveling experience, allow Blizzard to give more exp to quests and not fear for outleveling, and be the start of a possible improvement of the leveling experience.

I leveled a demo lock at the end of WoD from 1-60 exclusively through dungeons (well, 10-60, I guess) and I can't imagine dungeons giving MORE XP.

I do agree that the 15 level talent system blows during leveling, but you never really got something every other level even in Vanilla. You'd get a talent point and place it in your tree, but easily 80% of the time it was going into something like "Shadowbolt does 1% more damage." And you still obtain new spells as you level, just like the old days.

For the purposes of staying in one zone til completion scaling would be nice, but I still feel like it would end up in a net slowing effect because the mobs are taking longer to kill relative to now.

[Echocho]

Oh yeah it's super fun to play as a Vanilla Ret Pally where your "rotation" consists almost entirely of auto attacking something to death with SoComm up, and using Judgment on cooldown... until you OoM after every mob.

See there's your problem. If you're playing a paladin you're supposed to heal, not dps.