Kil'jaeden hc time to give up?

[KaPe]

Not sure if intended by Blizzard or not, but I can attest from my guild's experience that the first 3 mythic bosses went down with less pain than heroic KJ. Obelisks that hit you despite looking like you're out of them, legit. Boss meleeing the tank while he already went up in the air in first transition phase, yeah great design. Having to stop dps and plan carefully to not go into ghost phase with orb / armageddon / tank add up? Yeah.

I had the opposite experience, with even the first three mythic bosses having a lot of nasty raid damage, overlapping mechanics, sudden damage spikes and Harjatan trucking tanks even harder than Kil'Jaeden. Compared to that, KJ is pretty much down to Armageddon soaking - once you get past phase two, it becomes a lot more forgiving. Obelisks hurt, but a single hit doesn't kill you, red ball of fire is easy to avoid and Darkness is just a typical damage aura. Half of your raid can die fairly quickly and you'll still be able to finish him off.

[Marrilaife]

Harjatan shouldn't really have "sudden damage spikes", all of them are on a timer (the smash and the frigid blows, the healer team needs to plan which cds go for which one), the tank damage is Ursoc syndrome all over again (remember that the tank with 5 stacks of bleed will take more damage than the one getting meleed) and the biggest challenge is how to not cover whole room with water and keep the special adds away from the boss.

Goroth has some annoying rng with the pillar spawning but proper baiting can help a bit. The worst part about this boss is how do you deal with the tank circle during the explosion phase, you need to either plan some heavy cds or save a pillar opposite side than the rest of the raid and have tank class with good mobility like monk tp. People still need to soak circles but armageddon requires more people to fully rotate in the soaking process.

Inquisition is kinda like Nythendra all over again, you can't have half the raid corrupted at the same time, similar to Nythendra mind controls you want to stagger them. And then people need to be smart about positioning the spikes and the circles on the ground, if they're careless and put it wherever then yeah, it will become much more harder. Difference is on KJ you don't have this warning "big nasty mechanic on you, move!" people need to take initiative and actually decide to soak instead of dbm telling them to do so. Good raiders can do both, average raiders... will always have easier time just following an addon.

You can have nasty deaths in inquisition because someone just exited the cage and got targeted by spikes or some other stuff, but on KJ you can easily wipe just because you transitioned into ghost phase with raid too low on hp from armageddon / singularity / adds, before everyone gets to illidan and is healable you can have easy deaths, so you need to be careful when you transition him either push safely before an ability or stop dps and heal people up. And yeah, we did actually hit berserk on KJ after we got half the raid dead in p3.

Also dunno if that changes anything but we 5 healed all the first 3 mythic bosses and I think the only boss we were close to enrage was Harjatan, still we never wiped to enrage, but mostly from people mismanaging water puddles or healer cds. On KJ we couldn't really afford adding an extra healer because then we were getting extra Armageddon in each phase and it was making it worse.

It's not that KJ is free from stupid overlaps, for example a person goes to soak then gets the beam and dies or kills random people with the beam or tries to position the beam for people to soak and armageddon slips by. Or a person goes to soak gets the circle and then there's another armageddon close by so another person has to go inside the circle and soak both.

[cparle87]

Well, there are classes that have cooldown reduces on attacks... CoF would be the best example, but also things like Frostbolt crits reducing Icy Veins cd and such...
If you have debuff, you can't soak anyway and you stand in front of the boss so you most likely soak beam with that

And also things like boom's circadian invocation. In between soaks and beams I'll want to follow him around and kill moon/sunfire on him so I don't lose the 6% damage debuff for when he drops down. Also with fel essence all the astral power I spend whittles away my incarnation cooldown.

[Deleted]

You are putting it like DPS has an effect on armageddon; it does not.

You don't need 800k+ dps on that fight; you need people who are not mindless muppets.

[Ilara]

99% of our issues were caused by people confusing the meteor animation with the armageddon and moving out too quickly

[Rafalga]

99% of our issues were caused by people confusing the meteor animation with the armageddon and moving out too quickly

this. if they could change the red flash on the screen and the explosion effect, this would be easier. But then again, look fucking under you for the duration, there is still a swirling circle? Stand. Fucking. Still.

[jayheals]

only complaint about the fight is the obelisk beams are a bit too wide/broad, you can carefully position yourself and still get clipped

[Cheze]

first three mythic bosses are definitely easier than heroic KJ

I think KJ will start to get easy quickly though; our raid could already almost heal through an armageddon blast with a couple of CDs so I doubt it'll be that long before you can pretty easily get away with missing some soaks.

[VarianceWoW]

Took 68 pulls with my 10/10M guild, I expect pugs to have a few hurdles if it's not people who did progression before.

So many soaking failures, and then tank deaths in P3...

How is this possible? Not trying to be an ass but seriously 10/10M and 68 pulls for heroic KJ, thats just absurd.

[kamuimac]

I thought people people wanted bosses to be almost unkillable, some kind of a challenge.

they want it "chalenging" but only to the exact point of their skills - anythign higher - "uh devs to hard" anything lower " uh devs why so ease "

players are stupid nothing new here.

- - - Updated - - -

How is this possible? Not trying to be an ass but seriously 10/10M and 68 pulls for heroic KJ, thats just absurd.

its probably the same situation as in NH - in 2 months next patch will come you will farm fuckload of AP possibly more traits and make this instance a joke

[Pheros]

You are putting it like DPS has an effect on armageddon; it does not.

You don't need 800k+ dps on that fight; you need people who are not mindless muppets.

DPS does indeed make it easier, cause you get less armageddons overall. You won't have as many people with debuff, easier on healing, etc...

[Marrilaife]

How is this possible? Not trying to be an ass but seriously 10/10M and 68 pulls for heroic KJ, thats just absurd.

It's not really... In my guild (10/10m in the last week when cutting edge was available, so yeah lower end of mythic) it took over 80 pulls with various raid sizes to kill hc KJ (don't have all logs to count now), while I can tell you how long it took to get 1st kill on the 3 mythic bosses: Goroth 25, Harjatan 30, Inquisition 12. And tbh Harjatan would take less if people started running out with the water circle from the start without raid leader whipping them for it.

Worst part was we wasted so much time on hc KJ with lower raid size, people are claiming it's easier with less people, it really wasn't, when the beams or the circles are going out you have so few spare people left to actually soak it's not even funny. We spent some days with ~13 people at it, and we literally got nowhere. In the end we killed him with around 20 people. As I said, mistake was to consider going with lower raid size, whole day wasted on nothing.

There are fights that are hard, and there are fights that are stupid.

I remember another fight that gave this guild a tougher time than it should - mythic Gorefiend. We took long to kill it, and when we finally did, we wasted so much time every week rekilling it as if it was progress all over again. Another example of a boss that was more stupid than hard.

I know we are kinda a bunch of average players not some creme of the crop but I have hard time imagining most of the pugs are that much more disciplined and coordinated than a middle of the pack guild?

[Myztikrice]

I never really understood what sounds and swirlies have to do with Armageddon, you move after a meteor literally lands on your head

[Segus1992]

Def not an european thing, just retards being retards.

Are you sure? I was checking french logs the other day (top log was a frenchie) and I saw that your tooltips had spaces before exclamation points. If people's native languages do it, obviously the mistakes are more common.

Mind you, I am European too, just from a country that sees English as a language people should learn.

[Riistov]

but M Iron Reaver was a step up from HC Archi dps-check wise, if you could do Reaver mythic you sure could do HC Archi.

You're bringing back some bad flashbacks of Iron Reaver wipes. Even when we had it on farm I remember the bombs being a colossal pain in the ass.

[Roship]

I was able to pug KJ on heroic. Don't think the mechanics are the issue but the people in your group are.

[Deleted]

Are you sure? I was checking french logs the other day (top log was a frenchie) and I saw that your tooltips had spaces before exclamation points. If people's native languages do it, obviously the mistakes are more common.

Mind you, I am European too, just from a country that sees English as a language people should learn.

What I meant to say was, for comma specifically, there's nothing telling you to put a space before it, only after, at least in french (and I believe most latin languages).
French grammar is retarded tho, especially relating to punctuation, and some idioms are tolerated, like putting spaces before ? or ! just because it looks better.

[Segus1992]

What I meant to say was, for comma specifically, there's nothing telling you to put a space before it, only after, at least in french (and I believe most latin languages).
French grammar is retarded tho, especially relating to punctuation, and some idioms are tolerated, like putting spaces before ? or ! just because it looks better.

Fair enough. Looks so much worse in my opinion.

[Deleted]

I think it looks fine before "!", but it would look dumb in front of a standard "." ... To each their own I guess

[trm90]

HC KJ is definitely the hardest pug boss I've done in a while, probably a little bit harder than Archi because there's a TON of personal responsibility.

My guild went 8/10 last tier and it took us about 45 wipes, which isn't terrible IMO. But I personally had 70+ wipes in HC KJ pugs because most people are legit terrible at this game and are still far too lazy to read the dungeon journal / a guide.