Will Alleria approve of Sylvanas?

[Mehrunes]

So much got screwed up with the addition of the undead as a playable race. The Forsaken should've been a faction instead and the Scarlet Crusade too, creating tons of hostile content inbetween the two over former Lordaeron's lands. Ogres should've been the fourth playable race.

To paraphrase:

It has been almost 13 years since this went down and you're still not giving in with the whine about Forsaken joining the Horde. Give it a break already.

if they arent mind controlling forsaken, then its not hypocrisy. This was explained to you before, do you forget as well everything every 3 months when it comes to the forsaken?

More like ~10 days.

There is no debate on the free will. Blizzard confirmed it, stop trying to bring it up.

But Word of God says something else than it does/doesn't count if you feel that way!

Speaking of vague as fuck, care to prove the ghouls were enslaved?

His awesomely super-secret hideout of lore events?

[Tripzzz]

so once again, you are confusing your opinion/prediction with fact. Vereesa had zero issues with Sylvanas.


should have the forsaken just let the mindless undead wander around?




uh the fact that stillwater's experiments got him killed means that no, they were not ok with what he did.

The forsaken are fine with the Val'kyr, using a plague of undeath which raises mindless undead is not their thing.




Or you could catch up with everyone else? The book was 3 years ago.

Specifically a warlock protecting/saving Varian's life at the end of the book.

Vereesa is insanely stupid though. And if the Forsaken didn't want mindless undead roaming around maybe they shouldn't be raising corpses left and right. The fact remains the Forsaken do raise mindless undead, even if by accident.

"Under Warden Stillwater, the former humans of Hillsbrad Fields were being used in experiments for the Forsaken to create a new breed of loyal zombie-like slaves. These experiments weren't limited to just the humans, but other Forsaken as well. The punishment for experimenting on other Forsaken would be true death which is why Warden Stillwater wanted to do everything in his power to destroy the evidence that the experiments were even preformed at the Sludge Fields."

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Sludge_Fields



A single warlock saving Varian is different than Warlocks doing demonic rituals out in the middle of cities. You have yet to provide actual evidence.

[Mehrunes]

You make the claim, you provide the evidence.

And how do you know the forsaken didn't raise these ghouls themselves? We clearly see in the forsaken starting zone some of those who are raised are almost instantly turned mindless despite having been raised by Val'kyr.

How about you provide proof that Forsaken now resurrect mindless ghouls. No? I guess you just made it up then.

Geez, don't overflow with integrity so much, it's going to flood this topic.

[Tripzzz]

To paraphrase:





More like ~10 days.




But Word of God says something else than it does/doesn't count if you feel that way!




His awesomely super-secret hideout of lore events?

I'm not arguing the forsaken are mindcontrolled. I'm arguing the forsaken mindcontrol non forsaken like Theresa and Mug'thol. And free will exists for forsaken who retained their mind and make the choice. Where is the free will of Forsaken who are raised and instantly turn into mindless undead only to be killed again? No seriously, where is their free will?

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Geez, don't overflow with integrity so much, it's going to flood this topic.

How about you look at the forsaken starting zone you genius? Its plain as day that some of the undead raised by Val'kyr turn mindless. That's why there are so many zombies and ghouls in that area. That is a canon fact. But go ahead and scream like a banshee that it isn't fact. It's hilarious.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Vereesa is insanely stupid though. And if the Forsaken didn't want mindless undead roaming around maybe they shouldn't be raising corpses left and right. The fact remains the Forsaken do raise mindless undead, even if by accident.

yea, and instead of making them shock troopers they put them down.

"Under Warden Stillwater, the former humans of Hillsbrad Fields were being used in experiments for the Forsaken to create a new breed of loyal zombie-like slaves. These experiments weren't limited to just the humans, but other Forsaken as well. The punishment for experimenting on other Forsaken would be true death which is why Warden Stillwater wanted to do everything in his power to destroy the evidence that the experiments were even preformed at the Sludge Fields."

Since Once again this very hard concept escaped you. His experiments turned anyone into mindless undead. It didn't matter who he experimented on because in the end the result would have been the same.

A single warlock saving Varian is different than Warlocks doing demonic rituals out in the middle of cities. You have yet to provide actual evidence.

Except the warlock was out in the open and openly summoned a demon, something impossible apparently.

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No seriously, where is their free will?

They are killed because they don't have any? Does that need to be repeated?

How about you look at the forsaken starting zone you genius? It plain as day that some of the undead raised by Val'kyr turn mindless

yes, this is why the mindless ones are killed.

That is a canon fact. But go ahead and scream like a banshee that it isn't fact. It's hilarious.

I think you lost track of what you were angry about.

[Tripzzz]

yea, and instead of making them shock troopers they put them down.




Since Once again this very hard concept escaped you. His experiments turned anyone into mindless undead. It didn't matter who he experimented on because in the end the result would have been the same.



Except the warlock was out in the open and openly summoned a demon, something impossible apparently.

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They are killed because they don't have any? Does that need to be repeated?




yes, this is why the mindless ones are killed.




I think you lost track of what you were angry about.

We see some ghouls protecting undercity in the DK campaign. There are many mindless ghouls and zombies in the immediate area where the forsaken are raised. Where do these ghouls and zombies come from?

It did matter who he experimented on. He was only sentenced to truth death for experiments on forsaken.

One warlock saving Varian in the open isn't proof that Warlocks in masse are doing rituals out in the open. One=/=All.

They are killed because they don't have free will? So you admit that orsaken raise mindless undead, even if by accident. Excellent.

[Aquamonkey]

"Under Warden Stillwater, the former humans of Hillsbrad Fields were being used in experiments for the Forsaken to create a new breed of loyal zombie-like slaves. These experiments weren't limited to just the humans, but other Forsaken as well. The punishment for experimenting on other Forsaken would be true death which is why Warden Stillwater wanted to do everything in his power to destroy the evidence that the experiments were even preformed at the Sludge Fields."

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Sludge_Fields

While the sentence of death was for experimenting on Forsaken and turning them mindless, they weren't too happy with what Stillwater was doing with humans. The results are referred to as monstrosities.

"This place is no farm! Stillwater has been experimenting on the humans of Hillsbrad. These monstrosities here are all his creations."

[Tripzzz]

While the sentence of death was for experimenting on Forsaken and turning them mindless, they weren't too happy with what Stillwater was doing with humans. The results are referred to as monstrosities.

"This place is no farm! Stillwater has been experimenting on the humans of Hillsbrad. These monstrosities here are all his creations."

Yeah, I know the forsaken don't want mindless undead. The point I was arguing was that the Forsaken would have been Ok with Stillwater's plague if it produced functional forsaken(and if he had remained loyal to the Forsaken). It would be a much easier way to increase their numbers than relying on Val'kyr.

[purebalance]

If it was alleria just on her own. I feel she would be disgusted

But with the 7.3 stuff we see she has taken on the path of the void. And using void magic "do anything to defeat the legion" so she may be more willing with what sylvanans is doing.

I'd have to agree. There is a short conversation with Vereesa about it, but nothing that says she won't accept her. It seemed more shock at the situation. It also ends with something like "sisters are complicated"

[Aquamonkey]

Yeah, I know the forsaken don't want mindless undead. The point I was arguing was that the Forsaken would have been Ok with Stillwater's plague if it produced functional forsaken(and if he had remained loyal to the Forsaken). It would be a much easier way to increase their numbers than relying on Val'kyr.

That was one of the original design goals for the New Plague, but they gave up on it after failing.

[purebalance]

Yeap those poor sewer ghouls.

I guess you would have to prove that they werent ghouls released from the scourge, and raised by the forsaken.


Go write an angry letter and demand Blizzard that they rewrite the quests.




warlocks everywhere in Mop, warlocks running around infront of Varian's face.

Of course Nathanos's nephew didn't want to die, he however made an enemy of the forsaken. They didn't eat this soul, they killed him and transfered his "essence" or whatever, to nathanos.

Killing someone who is unwilling to die doesnt make you evil.

That isn't what happened to his cousin. Nathanos is in his body now and the cousin is the pile of ash that used to be Nathanos.

[Friendlyimmolation]

We see some ghouls protecting undercity in the DK campaign. There are many mindless ghouls and zombies in the immediate area where the forsaken are raised. Where do these ghouls and zombies come from?

You mean the remainder of the scourge forces? That you start killing in a quest?

It did matter who he experimented on. He was only sentenced to truth death for experiments on forsaken.

his project turned forsaken mindless. Even if he experimented only on humans, the moment a forsaken became mindless he would have been killed.

One warlock saving Varian in the open isn't proof that Warlock in masse are doing rituals out in the open. One=/=All.

the fact that a warlock was with Varian shows they no longer had to hide in the Alliance.

They are killed because they don't have free will? So you admit that orsaken raise mindless undead, even if by accident. Excellent.

Gee, I wonder whats the difference between accidentally raising mindless undead, and purposely raising them for shock troops.

[Tripzzz]

You mean the remainder of the scourge forces? That you start killing in a quest?




his project turned forsaken mindless. Even if he experimented only on humans, the moment a forsaken became mindless he would have been killed.




the fact that a warlock was with Varian shows they no longer had to hide in the Alliance.




Gee, I wonder whats the difference between accidentally raising mindless undead, and purposely raising them for shock troops.

Sure some are Scourge. But you already admitted that the Forsaken kill those accidentally raised as mindless. So at least some of them are the Forsaken's fault.

You're still missing the point. Of course they weren't happy with the plague producing mindless undead. But as aquamonkey said, one of the intents of the new plague was to raise free willed undead.

The warlock was just walking around. Warlocks have been walking around since Vanilla. But we don't see any warlock rituals happening in the open when there isn't an immediate threat to solve. Warlocks mainly do their rituals hidden from the public.

There is a difference in intent but the end result is still the same. A mindless undead is raised. Drunk drivers accidentally kill people, yeah they are better than a serial killer but at the end of the day they still killed some. Regardless of intent.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Sure some are Scourge. But you already admitted that the Forsaken kill those accidentally raised as mindless. So at least some of them are the Forsaken's fault.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Scourge_on_our_Perimeter

This quest says no.

You're still missing the point. Of course they weren't happy with the plague producing mindless undead. But as aquamonkey said, one of the intents of the new plague was to raise free willed undead.

until they changed it to killing living and dead.

The warlock was just walking around. Warlocks have been walking around since Vanilla. But we don't see any warlock rituals happening in the open when there isn't an immediate threat to solve. Warlocks mainly do their rituals hidden from the public.

Then you have read warcrimes? Or are you only guessing? Varian gave little thought to the giant felguard.

There is a difference in intent but the end result is still the same. A mindless undead is raised. Drunk drivers accidentally kill people, yeah they are better than a serial killer but at the end of the day they still killed some. Regardless of intent.

accidentally raising a mindless undead and immediately killing it, is now the same as mindlessly raising it and using it until it cant fight anymore?

[Deleted]

Turalyon wants a sisters reunion so bad, he's up all night to get lucky

[Tripzzz]

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Scourge_on_our_Perimeter

This quest says no.



until they changed it to killing living and dead.


Then you have read warcrimes? Or are you only guessing? Varian gave little thought to the giant felguard.




accidentally raising a mindless undead and immediately killing it, is now the same as mindlessly raising it and using it until it cant fight anymore?

That quest only says ghouls and skeletons. The zombies in the area are likely from the forsaken turning mindless we see in the beginning.

They only changed it because they had failed to achieve their initial goal.

No I haven't read it. But did the warlock summon the demon in front of everyone or was it already summoned and simply walking next to his master? Either way a single warlock isn't proof at all warlocks now do rituals out in the open. You're always stressing a single individual doesn't represent the whole group. Why the sudden change in argument?

It's not completely the same but it's not completely different either. Both result in mindless undead being raised. Mindless undead that are, to quote the for themselves "monstrosities". Regardless of the intent. It's very simple.

[Aucald]

I think this "Is Sylvanas/The Forsaken evil or not" debate has gone on long enough, and isn't really relevant as to the discussion about Alleria and Sylvanas' relationship in the future. Switch back to a more relevant debate or take it to a new thread.

[Tripzzz]

I think this "Is Sylvanas/The Forsaken evil or not" debate has gone on long enough, and isn't really relevant as to the discussion about Alleria and Sylvanas' relationship in the future. Switch back to a more relevant debate or take it to a new thread.

How is it not relevant? Are you saying all the things that the Forsaken and Slyvanus do will have no impact on how Alleria views her sister?

[Aucald]

How is it not relevant? Are you saying all the things that the Forsaken and Slyvanus do will have no impact on how Alleria views her sister?

If you want to make that your argument, then state it and move on. So far we've had about 3-4 pages worth of an argument about secret compartments in the Undercity and whether or not undead are mindless or not. I think we could say that this point it's been entirely asked and answered.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That quest only says ghouls and skeletons. The zombies in the area are from forsaken turning mindless.

which you kill.

They only changed it because they had failed to achieve their initial goal.

which doesn't change the fact that they punished Stillwater for his actions.

No I haven't read it. But did the warlock summon the demon in front of everyone or was it already summoned and simply walking next to his master? Either way a single warlock isn't proof at all warlocks now do rituals out in the open. You're always stressing a since individual doesn't represent the whole group. Why the suddenly change in argument?

your argument is that warlocks hide in basements from everyone. The fact that warlocks were able to travel with the Alliance party means they were no where near as discriminated agasitn as the Orcish warlocks were in Orgrimmar.

It's completely the same but it's not completely different either. Both result in mindless undead being raised. Mindless undead that are, to quote the for themselves "monstrosities". Regardless of the intent. It's very simple.

I think the difference is pretty obvious to everyone in regards to raising them on purpose and not.

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I think this "Is Sylvanas/The Forsaken evil or not" debate has gone on long enough, and isn't really relevant as to the discussion about Alleria and Sylvanas' relationship in the future. Switch back to a more relevant debate or take it to a new thread.

Pretty sure it was argued into oblivion here. Thanks.