[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[The Casualty]

Isn't that "if yes" scenario more or less what WAR is facing right now compared to the other two tanks? Perhaps less so complex and simply more punishing for...reasons. Basing this off of feedback I've seen on Reddit and in game. I haven't advanced DRK past 63 (decided to focus on WHM as my first alt job) and haven't even touched the other tanks yet.

I don't think the sky is falling for warrior like some people on the general forums would have everyone believe, but it sure does need some QoL adjustments. If for nothing else, than just reverting back to swapping stances not costing resource.

I know someone did the math, and regarding potency loss, switching even with losing gauge is on paper not a significant loss compared to the other tank classes on a strictly GCD basis, but when you consider how much it throws off overall rotation throughout a fight, it's silly.

For optimal gameplay, it very much involves both spending gauge on Fell Cleave to line up your Infuriates for the burst as well as having relatively specific gauge numbers at certain points so you can line up burst windows with your/your party's CDs. Losing out just feels really bad and quite the opposite of fluid gameplay. That and getting beast gauge in multiples of other than 10 is insulting. What am I going to do with 3 beast gauge?

DRK so far has been easier...I guess? I haven't really pushed numbers and am not as familiar with priorities, but I finished the final quest right before raid night with my static and was able to pull a 92nd percentile parse. I find myself looking at the hotbars a lot more, but then again I think it's just unfamiliarity with the class. It does feel like there is less need for the stars to align to fit burst phases in however.

Right now the clear winner seems to be PLD, both in terms of utility and overall DPS.

The one thing I have to hand to SE is this time, the tank numbers are all pretty close. PLD does seem to lose the least while in tank stance however, and if SE is really concerned with keeping people in their intended stance - they need to not only concern themselves with making content hard enough that needs it, but make the actual tank stance not feel like a punishment when I have to use it.


Sorry for the rant. I love tanking and the overall tanking meta, and I get on tangents.

[Kazgrel]

Finished off the current Omega raid last night. I'm a fan of that third boss fight. Last boss does a shitload of damage seemingly all the time, going back and forth between tank buster and something that hits several (if not all) other party members. Obvious odes/throwbacks to FF5 aside, this raid, in comparison to normal Gordias...lot more interesting in terms of fights and especially the story/lore.

Didn't meet my intended (albeit admittedly ambitious) goal of all crafters at 70 just yet...CRP/BSM/ARM done, rest at 68/69 except GSM, but I plan to jump it to 70 via leves when I get home (koppranickel ingot spam ftw). I really want to get WVR and LTW done so I can make my gear, but damn all the mats (and amounts of them) needed for some of the cloth/leather this go around...

[Aurimas]

I find it curious that so many people's definition of fun is DPS.

Half the general sentiment from what I've been seeing is dps. "If tanks did more dps it would be more fun". Disguised with pretty wrappings a lot of the time. "A really tough rotation that if executed properly could produce DPS like dps".

Maybe that's why so many more people like playing DPS. I guess that's exactly the point that people are trying to make... but why?

Ignoring the obvious problems, such as "wouldn't that make the ideal party just 6 neigh-invincible 'dps'?" (maybe even 7 neigh-invincible "dps", since there'd be less raid healing needed).

What is it about appearing on some silly chart with a big number that makes it so appealing? I find it really fun when I pull someone's ass out of the fire. There were plenty of times when I said to myself "I won that fight, that was on me".

I get a big smile when I see tanks use a well placed... whatever that shiny new raid protecting PLD skill is called. I've messed up big on occasion and gotten a well timed cover. "Wow, this guy is really good".

So what is it about numbers that make them so fun? The cynical side of me says "to rub in peoples faces", but the internet has made me pretty damn cynical if you couldn't tell. Is it the obviousness? 6 other people may not have noticed that perfectly timed Cover, but they can't miss the dps numbers?

[Kazgrel]

I don't think the sky is falling for warrior like some people on the general forums would have everyone believe, but it sure does need some QoL adjustments. If for nothing else, than just reverting back to swapping stances not costing resource.

I know someone did the math, and regarding potency loss, switching even with losing gauge is on paper not a significant loss compared to the other tank classes on a strictly GCD basis, but when you consider how much it throws off overall rotation throughout a fight, it's silly.

For optimal gameplay, it very much involves both spending gauge on Fell Cleave to line up your Infuriates for the burst as well as having relatively specific gauge numbers at certain points so you can line up burst windows with your/your party's CDs. Losing out just feels really bad and quite the opposite of fluid gameplay. That and getting beast gauge in multiples of other than 10 is insulting. What am I going to do with 3 beast gauge?

DRK so far has been easier...I guess? I haven't really pushed numbers and am not as familiar with priorities, but I finished the final quest right before raid night with my static and was able to pull a 92nd percentile parse. I find myself looking at the hotbars a lot more, but then again I think it's just unfamiliarity with the class. It does feel like there is less need for the stars to align to fit burst phases in however.

Right now the clear winner seems to be PLD, both in terms of utility and overall DPS.

The one thing I have to hand to SE is this time, the tank numbers are all pretty close. PLD does seem to lose the least while in tank stance however, and if SE is really concerned with keeping people in their intended stance - they need to not only concern themselves with making content hard enough that needs it, but make the actual tank stance not feel like a punishment when I have to use it.


Sorry for the rant. I love tanking and the overall tanking meta, and I get on tangents.

I'm thinking that axing that resource penalty when stance swapping would go a significant way to making WAR more fun to play, at the very least. I always enjoyed the relative seamlessness of the stance dancing...I mean, what are they scared of, players being able to do back to back fell cleaves? I mean...I can't see how getting to 100 gauge in Defiance then deciding to swap and be able to drop 6 fell cleaves is a bad thing. WAR having burst damage like that has been a staple, least in my experience with the job. Even if they remove the stance swap penalty, it won't automatically make WAR the no-questions OT like it was in HW now that PLD and DRK have meaningful buttons to hit for damage when in the OT role (nor do those jobs rely on being hit for some of their abilities to work).

[lawow74]

So what is it about numbers that make them so fun? The cynical side of me says "to rub in peoples faces", but the internet has made me pretty damn cynical if you couldn't tell. Is it the obviousness? 6 other people may not have noticed that perfectly timed Cover, but they can't miss the dps numbers?

It's an easy metric to measure by. Goes all the way back to the earliest days of competition, when we invented sports. He who scores more wins. Anything that's not strictly pass/fail, like a footrace, uses some kind of score, even if only as a tiebreaker, like in boxing.

[The Casualty]

I find it curious that so many people's definition of fun is DPS.

Half the general sentiment from what I've been seeing is dps. "If tanks did more dps it would be more fun". Disguised with pretty wrappings a lot of the time. "A really tough rotation that if executed properly could produce DPS like dps".

Maybe that's why so many more people like playing DPS. I guess that's exactly the point that people are trying to make... but why?

Ignoring the obvious problems, such as "wouldn't that make the ideal party just 6 neigh-invincible 'dps'?" (maybe even 7 neigh-invincible "dps", since there'd be less raid healing needed).

What is it about appearing on some silly chart with a big number that makes it so appealing? I find it really fun when I pull someone's ass out of the fire. There were plenty of times when I said to myself "I won that fight, that was on me". Even more exciting when other people noticed it too "thank god we had an amazing healer".

I get a big smile when I see tanks use a well placed... whatever that shiny new raid protecting PLD skill is called. I've messed up big on occasion and gotten a well timed cover. "Wow, this guy is really good".

So what is it about numbers that make them so fun? The cynical side of me says "to rub in peoples faces", but the internet has made me pretty damn cynical if you couldn't tell. Is it the obviousness? 6 other people may not have noticed that perfectly timed Cover, but they can't miss the dps numbers?

Because a good tank can do all of what you stated AND still keep an interesting rotation. Nothing in this game has ever required a tank to go full turtle mode. It's all about going toe to toe with the savage raid boss, doing great numbers, and still being able to properly time cooldowns and tank swaps so you can beat enrages.

On DRK, I can do damage and still find time to TBN the MT, then eat the OT hit with properly utilized cooldowns. Hell if we screw up on Lakshmi, I can eat a Chanchalla'ed Pull of Light without Vril due to Living Dead, have the other tank pull hate during the buster, and have the OT hit go to me as well - also without Vril and then have the WHM bene me, all due to clever manipulation of mechanics (largely unnecessary, but has been done).

That's cool. That's a great part of being a tank. But I also don't want to be a tin can that just gets beat on while everyone else gets to do damage while I do a token amount. That's not compelling gameplay.

[Kazgrel]

I find it curious that so many people's definition of fun is DPS.

Half the general sentiment from what I've been seeing is dps. "If tanks did more dps it would be more fun". Disguised with pretty wrappings a lot of the time. "A really tough rotation that if executed properly could produce DPS like dps".

Maybe that's why so many more people like playing DPS. I guess that's exactly the point that people are trying to make... but why?

Ignoring the obvious problems, such as "wouldn't that make the ideal party just 6 neigh-invincible 'dps'?" (maybe even 7 neigh-invincible "dps", since there'd be less raid healing needed).

What is it about appearing on some silly chart with a big number that makes it so appealing? I find it really fun when I pull someone's ass out of the fire. There were plenty of times when I said to myself "I won that fight, that was on me".

I get a big smile when I see tanks use a well placed... whatever that shiny new raid protecting PLD skill is called. I've messed up big on occasion and gotten a well timed cover. "Wow, this guy is really good".

So what is it about numbers that make them so fun? The cynical side of me says "to rub in peoples faces", but the internet has made me pretty damn cynical if you couldn't tell. Is it the obviousness? 6 other people may not have noticed that perfectly timed Cover, but they can't miss the dps numbers?

It's more of a WAR niche thing, really; not to imply that PLD and DRK do not care about their own damage output. It's really the main thing WAR brings in the OT role (which it pretty much had exclusive ownership of in HW). Mitigation tools like Passage and The Blackest Night are good to have in a pinch. I doubt any tank would say they wouldn't want those, lol. But then you get genius things like Shake It Off which...well, given the game's current design (as well as that specific abilities), they may as well had not given WAR a level 68 ability at all.

[Faroth]

It's an easy metric to measure by. Goes all the way back to the earliest days of competition, when we invented sports. He who scores more wins. Anything that's not strictly pass/fail, like a footrace, uses some kind of score, even if only as a tiebreaker, like in boxing.

Major reason I frown on DPS meters and prefer my raid teams to not use them save one or two specifically selected members I can rely on for analysis rather than epeen waving. I've found I can get a team to succeed with subpar players included in the team. DPS isn't an end all be all metric of performance and my personal team experiences have supported me on this. You take the team and you utilize their strengths rather than obsess over their weaknesses. That's not always one specific label-fits-all just because they're playing a defined class role.

Most dismiss it as I'm simply wrong, but it's worked for me and my teams, so we'll continue on with it.

[StrawberryZebra]

Maybe, though I think the segment that would want that would be shouted down by the larger demographic that doesn't want to work at playing a video game.

To be clear, I wasn't advocating that all tanks should be demanding to play. Only that in a game with three or four tanking classes, having one of them be the games "hard" class would a way of making the tanking role appealing to a very different section of the player base.

What is tricky about this is performance/output.

Yes indeed. And given where Squenix ended up with overall class balance so far in SB, it's doubtful they could pull this off well at all.

That being said, if the reward for playing it well is something quite small, say....2-3% difference between the other tanks for playing it perfectly, but if it feels as though it's much larger then you can get away with it.

If the "Hard" tank takes more damage, but has lots of built in self healing as a way to counter that for example, then you get the satisfaction of being able to recover large chunks of that damage you take for yourself. You're not actually being significantly more effective than any other tank, but you feel like a self-healing GOD by instantly refilling 2/3rds of your health bar because you used your skills properly. If the other tanks simply lose 1/3rd of their health bar from the attack, but our "hard" tank recovers enough HP to put them back at the same point...The overall difference is quite large in terms of player perceptions.

Or as an alternative, maybe the "hard" tank can provide a ton more utility when played well. If the mastery curve for it isn't tied, directly, to how effective they are as a tank, but on how well they can provide useful group tool while also tanking. Prot Paladins in TBC were, sort of, in this situation. You could just stand there and take hits, but you could also push the boat out and help out with Cleanse, JoW/JoL, Sacrifice on other tanks, Lay on Hands, BoP as an emergency threat drop...The list goes on, but there was a mastery curve to the class tangential to just tanking which could provide a model to build this kind of tank without having to go way over the top.

My guild had a Prot Paladin back in TBC and Wrath who was amazing at this kind of thing - He made life so much easier on our healers. So much so that those few times he wasn't around, we really did notice it and struggled without him. He'd cover pretty much all but the most serious mechanical fuck ups.

I don't think the sky is falling for warrior like some people on the general forums would have everyone believe, but it sure does need some QoL adjustments. If for nothing else, than just reverting back to swapping stances not costing resource.

For me, the WAR is in the same boat as SCH and SMN. All totally playable jobs, but SB removed the aspects of them that I enjoyed. Unfortunately, that's not something simple QoL buffs can really fix .

But in MMO's I have seen people kick, or leave at the start of a duty/dungeon, I have seen people openly say they will not take a Job/class that if played right functions very well but people are not willing to take the risk.

I've noticed this starting to creep in to FF14 already. Just last night I was in a group with a tank who refused to go anywhere because we had a BRD and MCH as DPS. I've also seen lots of parties on the party finder that are looking to exclude MCH from their runs, less commonly it's also been MNK, DRG, SMN and even BLM!

Okay, the MCH does have a lot of issues but a good MCH is still far better than a horrible SAM. The group excluding the BLM I really have to question though, since the Job is one of the highest DPS at the moment, and the BLM we had join was one of the better ones I've played with but was kicked regardless.

[Jun]

I've seen some good MCH in the dungeons this past week. I don't think the class is nearly as bad as everyone thinks it is.

Meanwhile, I've seen SAMs stacking with the tank, getting cleaved, then blaming the tank for "turning the boss."

Also saw more than one RDM trying to, what I assume, use macros to cast spells, as they were hard casting most of their abilities at odd intervals. Either shitty bot or shittier player, but either way, that's not how RDM works. Can't queue spells like that in this game.

At the end of the day, any group that's dumping people strictly because of Job is just looking to be carried, as they lack both knowledge and probably skill. You're better off making your own PF group.

[Kazgrel]

I've noticed this starting to creep in to FF14 already. Just last night I was in a group with a tank who refused to go anywhere because we had a BRD and MCH as DPS. I've also seen lots of parties on the party finder that are looking to exclude MCH from their runs, less commonly it's also been MNK, DRG, SMN and even BLM!

Okay, the MCH does have a lot of issues but a good MCH is still far better than a horrible SAM. The group excluding the BLM I really have to question though, since the Job is one of the highest DPS at the moment, and the BLM we had join was one of the better ones I've played with but was kicked regardless.

Can't say I've ever run into this (yet). I really don't care what job someone chooses to play; I only care when I notice they're doing little more than, say, auto attacking and maybe pressing 1-2 other buttons. I've seen that happen all too often, unfortunately.

There's probably going to be some weird group comp setup that, while it won't get world first, it'll rank fairly high, and people will be like "zomg y u gaiz run xyz job instead of meta?!"...well, like you said, maybe that world-class level MCH is average to mediocre at best on SAM or whatever other job. At that point, it's definitely a "who gives a fuck" moment if said raid team has successfully cleared the raid. They can go balls-out on optimization for speed kills in the months to come at that point if they want.

[Aruhen]

What MCH? I don't think I've seen a single one in end game content.

I've also seen lots of parties on the party finder that are looking to exclude MCH from their runs, less commonly it's also been MNK, DRG, SMN and even BLM!

Really? I've been doing constant Susano extreme groups over the last week to try to get my dog and I've seen every class equally represented except MCH. Yeah there's the odd group here and there that want specifics but maybe they just don't want several of the same class for less competition? I've had one group were they wanted everything except a BRD as they already had one. I messaged the group leader and told him I didn't need the weapon after which I got a reply that I can join the group now.

[lawow74]

MCH has fallen victim to the Whack-A-Mole style of class balance that was applied to WAR and ACN. This is too good, let's make it weaker than similar jobs to compensate. No, r-tard, how about you make it EQUAL to similar jobs. Oh wait, that would take actual thought and ability. Never mind...

[Aruhen]

MCH has fallen victim to the Whack-A-Mole style of class balance that was applied to WAR and ACN. This is too good, let's make it weaker than similar jobs to compensate. No, r-tard, how about you make it EQUAL to similar jobs. Oh wait, that would take actual thought and ability. Never mind...

MCH isn't actually that far behind BRD though when it comes to raw damage. If anything I can see MCH doing more in certain situations. The real question is how strong is BRD utility compared to MCH.

I wonder which is better, Hypercharge or Foe's. Hypercharge is 5% and lasts 20 seconds but is on a two minute CD. Foe's is 3% but instead of a CD you use mana and probably lasts 10 seconds with full mana during combat. Now if Hypercharge is better overall is it enough to offset the lack of songs? If not probably just make Hypercharge a tiny bit stronger and increase the potency of a few abilities.

[Katchii]

It seems to me that you guys are either arguing nothing or the same thing using different words. I went back 3 or 4 posts and couldn't figure out what the argument was.

I question how much the "in need" matters. I have never once opened up the DF to find out if I was in need. If I happen to see that it is healers instead of tanks, I say "oh nice", but I intended to queue anyway. If I had all three leveled to 70, might I pick the "in need" class? Maybe... but I don't think I'd ever open up DF just to get a bonus.

Do any of you alt-o-holics change the class you wanted to queue based on "in need"?

To skew the topic a little bit, I did enjoy reading Ghostcrawler's post on the main page about this topic sometime in the last year. I wish I could have found it as he is much better at communicating it then I.

He spoke on the likelyhood that more people liked to play DPS because there was less responsibility and accountability.

Essentially he mused on whether the queue times were a product of the number or people wanting to play tank and healer, or if the queue time itself was the threshold. As if 20 minuets (number made up) was the point where people said "fuckit, I'll play tank then".

He wished he could just push a button and let in an extra dps without all the design problems that would follow. Just to see if the (dps) queue times would stay markedly lower, or if the average queue time would just creep back up to around where it was, as more people were happy to give up the responsibility.

I too have that curiousity. I've a feeling it would creep back up, but stay slightly lower. Balenced both around people who like to tank or heal and people who tank or heal just because of the queue times. I think for each dps you would add to the party, average queue times would drop less and less (that the bigger effect on the number of non-dps are the queue-times).

In a word, No. I don't care about the Adventurer in Need bonus, mainly because it's inconsequential...I don't ever even notice it when I get it.

I like to have one of each role at max and geared enough to run Experts and the normal raids to help FC mates with their stuff. I've never opened Duty Finder as a DPS or Healer, seen Tanks are in need and then switched to tank because of the bonus. I queue, see what the expected time is and then decide if I'm willing to wait or if I'm impatient. I typically never choose healer, because if I'm willing to wait I'll go in as my preferred DPS class and if I'm not willing to wait I'll go tank. I consider long anything more than ~15 minutes but if I have other things I can be doing like Beast Tribe dailies or FATE grinding or something (if I feel like it) I'll wait 20 or so. If the timer says 30 or More than 30 I just switch to tank or create a PF group.

This mentality changes a little when I'm specifically trying to level a certain job and want to do the roulettes for the xp bonus. If I can't find a PF group as a DPS I generally just queue up and wait while I FATE grind or craft. Tanks and Healers obviously don't really have that problem.

[Veluren]

Also saw more than one RDM trying to, what I assume, use macros to cast spells, as they were hard casting most of their abilities at odd intervals. Either shitty bot or shittier player, but either way, that's not how RDM works. Can't queue spells like that in this game.

This one might be because of lag, I've had a few situations where I lag right as jolt finishes, so I start hard casting my Black/White spell before the server catches up and gives me dualcast

Unless you're meaning they don't cancel and go through with the full cast, in which case, yeah, no

[Anzaman]

Did some more Susano Ex.. having Rescue as healer sure is handy when people can't move their own asses to other side of gap.

At least I got my i320 AST weapon.

[dope_danny]

Did some more Susano Ex.. having Rescue as healer sure is handy when people can't move their own asses to other side of gap.

At least I got my i320 AST weapon.

Lets just say a lot of tanks and healers had verraise cast on them by me in Lakshmi ex today

There should be a RDM version of the good samaritan achievement. Like "C'mon son" or something.

[Jun]

This one might be because of lag, I've had a few situations where I lag right as jolt finishes, so I start hard casting my Black/White spell before the server catches up and gives me dualcast

Unless you're meaning they don't cancel and go through with the full cast, in which case, yeah, no

Every single cast, unfortunately. They weren't having issues avoiding mechanics either, so I doubt it was latency, though I know what you're talking about.

[Aruhen]

Did some more Susano Ex.. having Rescue as healer sure is handy when people can't move their own asses to other side of gap.

At least I got my i320 AST weapon.

I have a love/hate relationship with this ability on Susano. A lot of healers don't position properly so sometimes you get put into the AoE... I'd rather use sprint .