Is Sylvanas truly evil?

[Aucald]

Dibs on her bow!

Which one? The model of Sylvanas' bow changes constantly - from the blue/black version that looks similar to Thas'dorah and the bone and sinew-based version she seems to have the in the Legion opening cinematic. She's a had a few others as well over the years, as well; it seems like they've never settled on a set model for it.

[omeomorfismo]

So many people indoctrinated by sylvanas' .. charm? I cant believe how many people defend her actions, claiming that she only attacks millitary targets or some bullshit. We get it, you are horde, but some some freaking farm (hillsbrad fields) wasnt any millitary target. Southshore had its defenses but they had right to live there. ''Hurr durr we are dead and we have to kill everyone, because lordaeron belongs to the forsaken something something'' or ''in order to survive, we have to invade everyone so we can replenish our ranks''

lulz, the ones that start before vanilla to kidnap and murder forsakens? yep, sure, hillsbrad fiels are innocent

and forsakens dont invade to replenish their rank, they use that tactic only with invading forces, otherwise they only desecrate graves

[CaptainV]

Dalaran Village was one of the human villages that were consistently attacking the Forsaken since vanilla (and likely started the hostilities

Gilneas was use the weapon or have her troops turned into a meat grinder because of Garrosh. Kill or be killed.

Andorhal vanilla was controlled by the scourge and still was until the alliance and horde cleared it out during their battle for each other. Plus allowing Alliance to have a base in Andorhal would be like Varian allowing a horde base in Redridge or Westfall. Simply put wouldn't happen and the place would be burned to the ground.

Alliance isn't above using WMDs in the past when it was fine with them. Like using mages to nuke entire areas. Plus what's worse, dying in agony on the ground with limbs chopped off or your insides sprawled on the ground vs green gas killing in a couple seconds?

Koltira was not neutral, he was a horde commander to pledged to Sylvanas and at the first opportunity betrayed the horde by simply taking a victory and turned it into a near defeat because he agreed to a truce to an invading force.

Ressurecting the dead itself isn't evil. The deal with Lorna was simply potentially one life for hundreds. By threatening one life she saved many on both sides to stop the stupid conflict.

Southshore was a mistake by the user. Plus any able adult was siding with the alliance and part of a military outpost that attacked Tarren Mill for just existing as an undead town.

No proof or evidence that Sylvanas had anything to do with Vol'jin picking her for horde leader outside the word of a Dreadlord and I'd trust every politician in Congress and Westminster before the words of a Dreadlord.

She offered to ressurect elves, Lor'themar said no. Then she said "What about alliance." Lor'themar said take it up with them. Essentially not caring.

The plague is not a warcrime. Plus it was not used but taken.

We don't know what the deal with Helya is. But if it kept the Forsaken around it is a deal anyone in her position would make and as leader of the forsaken should make.

Liam jumped into the arrow to protect his senile father who had already plunged Gilneas into a civil war and is perhaps one of the true most evil leaders. Being a power hungry expansionist who cried when he couldn't get his way and watched as many people he could save were left to die because of his pettyness.

Again trusting the word of a Dreadlord when if they said "Sun rises on earth in the East and the sky when clear is blue." means you should stay up until a clear dawn just to make sure due to how much bullshit they spread. Which is essentially every word that comes out of their mouth.

You make some fairly good counter arguments to these points ill give you that, but the fact is that trying to avoid the fact that her actions are morally questionable and her open willingness to do alot of them is purely driven by Mainly, self gain, is inavoidable. Sylvanas may want a future for her people but *she* comes first and she damn well knows it, given her attempt to attain immortality via Helya.

[Zuben]

Evil isn't bad trait in itself. Any character who can be classed as evil in Warcraft's universe is our friend or foe based on if they intend to destroy us, or if we can tolerate their way of life. Arthas intended to destroy us, we fought him. Bolvar doesn't intend to destroy us, we let him be. Such thing as crime against humanity doesn't exist in Warcraft. Each faction dictates their values you have to abide by to be allied, and Sylvanas never crossed the line with the Horde (with the exception of Garrosh, but the "statute of limitations" expired along with him). Even Argent Crusade agreed to tolerate her, with the exception of rogue operators like Nathanos's cousin.

So is Sylvanas evil? You could say that. You could also leave such pointless labels at the door and take a grander look at things.

[Shibito]

And another one its funny you people thinking she gonna be killed she wont hihi. Its the same with you that was 100% sure hillary would win its so satisfying to watch you realise you are wrong.

[OverFanNisseFrasse]

Which one? The model of Sylvanas' bow changes constantly - from the blue/black version that looks similar to Thas'dorah and the bone and sinew-based version she seems to have the in the Legion opening cinematic. She's a had a few others as well over the years, as well; it seems like they've never settled on a set model for it.

Remebered back in vanilla when she hade night elf model insteed, and didn't even had a bow then(might was unequiped for all we know), but a sword. But if I were to pick one specifically, I would go with the look a like black/blue version. Even though her legion bow with the spines looks awesome, I still kind like the black/blue version more. The Legion version feels a little to messy for me.

.. wonder why she hade a sword back then in vanilla? Most likely some miss from the developers, or didn't it hold some significance?

[Sangris]

You guys are slacking off. At the time of this post, we have only 3 threads on the very first page with the word "Sylvanas" in their title and one with "Jaina Proudmoore" that's actually about Sylvanas. We obviously need many more Sylvanas threads.

[Kallisto]

You make some fairly good counter arguments to these points ill give you that, but the fact is that trying to avoid the fact that her actions are morally questionable and her open willingness to do alot of them is purely driven by Mainly, self gain, is inavoidable. Sylvanas may want a future for her people but *she* comes first and she damn well knows it, given her attempt to attain immortality via Helya.

I don't deny her actions are morally questionable looking from a 21st century real world western eye.

What I also bring up is that there are no leaders that pretty much aren't in one way or another leaders that would absolutely be wanted for crimes in the hague if Azeroth was modern Earth and are also very morally questionable on both sides of the A/H divide.

[Aucald]

Remebered back in vanilla when she hade night elf model insteed, and didn't even had a bow then(might was unequiped for all we know), but a sword. But if I were to pick one specifically, I would go with the look a like black/blue version. Even though her legion bow with the spines looks awesome, I still kind like the black/blue version more. The Legion version feels a little to messy for me.

.. wonder why she hade a sword back then in vanilla? Most likely some miss from the developers, or didn't it hold some significance?

Back in Classic/Vanilla her model was temporary - it was actually a recolored Alpha Night Elf model, and I guess the sword was part of it (in some of the Alpha models both the weaponry and armor the models were wearing was texture mapped to the model as opposed to independent wireframes like we have now). I believe around when WotLK hit she was given a temporary current Blood Elf model with some color changes, then another temporary model, before she finally got her more-or-less final model based on the new wireframe that Ysera and Alexstrasza were using in their humanoid forms. Every time her model changes it seemed her bow model also changed - at one point she had Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury as her weapon (when she was using the first Blood Elf model with platinum hair and red eyes).

[Arrashi]

And another one its funny you people thinking she gonna be killed she wont hihi. Its the same with you that was 100% sure hillary would win its so satisfying to watch you realise you are wrong.

It wouldn't be a proper sylvanas thread without reference to american politics.

[Mehrunes]

What a new and refreshing topic.

Is Sylvanas evil? Yes, very much so, her actions in many way can be percieved as evil, unprovoked, unlogical and sometimes downright irrational.

A list of her recent deeds after Wrath include:

- Laying seige to a small Dalaranian village unprovoked, killing everyone there and forcing them to join her Forsaken.

That Dalaranian village wasn't even Dalaranian post-Wrath anymore. It was allied with the Alliance, in the middle of an Alliance invasion in Alliance-started world war. Even pre-Wrath, when it was already in conflict with the Forsaken, the humans there were the ones who started it.

- Turning Gilneas into a wasteland which cannot be populated for some time.

Fanfiction. The Blight used in Gilneas was watered down.

- Unprovokingly attacking Andorhals residents, and ebbing close to the argent crusade territories.

Unprovokingly attacking Alliance forces during faction war started by the Alliance, in zone where Alliance had no business other than establishing a new front against the Forsaken. OK then

- Using the damned plague, period.

Oh noes, a weapon is used in a war.

- Abducting a member of a neutral faction (Ebon Blade) without justified reason save that he allowed *living* people to escape death, which she craved to recruit them into her army, by force.

Koltira joined the Forsaken in Cata. The reason was treason. That cost Forsaken lives after Alliance broke the truce. The craving part is more fanfiction.

- Ressurecting Godfrey and holding Lorna Crowley hostage for the entirety of Gilneas, forcing Darius to surrender it. Threatening to turn Lorna into an undead if he refused which she did not seem hesitant at.

So she gave Godfrey a choice. Super evil.

- Turning Southshore into a wasteland.

Damn, destruction of an enemy outpost during a war they started. Once more, super evil. Plus the wasteland part was an accident.

- Possibly taking advantage of a dying Vol'jin to secure the right of Warchief (as of 7.3 Varimathras quotes) using some kind of spiritual manipulation.

That's why she got rooted in one place after he surprised her with the nomination, after she expected more trash-talking about how he doesn't trust her. And would you look at all the times she used a spiritual manipulation power. The cherry on the top is that Varimathras' quote outright shows he doesn't know the specific circumstances of her election to the Warchief position and that he's just blindly throwing shit at the wall, hoping something sticks.

- Raising undead without permission from Lor'themar during the Siege of Ogrimmar while he clearly said he would kill her if he found out.

She dropped the idea after he rebuffed her. So more fanfiction.

- Using the damned plague *again* in Stormhiem, which is basically a warcrime in itself.

Using a weapon is a warcrime, fascinating tale. Besides, most of the Blight that was spilled in Stormheim was spilled after Genn broke the peace and made a surprise attack against the Forsaken.

- Making a faustian deal with Helya to try to control Eyir which backfired epicly, all while trying to kill Genn.

Speculation on her goal in regards to Eyir. At that point Helya mattered nothing one way or another to the playable factions. Genn attacked her first, both in general (Stormheim intro) and in that particular event.

- Killing Genns son previously, earning her his desire for revenge.

Kills an enemy during a war. Basically second Sargeras.

- According to Varimathras claim in 7.3, likely going to cause some heavy problems for the Alliance soon.

Given how his taunt to the Horde was bullshit, chances are so is the Alliance one. Besides, part of the Alliance taunt can't apply to Sylvanas with how things stand now.

Anyway, long story short, being evil doesnt mean she isnt practical, but that doesnt mean she can be justified for the majority of her crimes. Raising more undead is one thing, but forcing them back from death is no better than what Arthas did in the past.

How do you rise undead without "forcing them back from the dead"? Besides, the fact she offers them a choice is a clear difference from Arthas and you're arguing against Word of God that confirmed it.

Shes in essence taking peoples right to die, and forcing them to serve her army, which is rapidly growing into a force of formiddably threatening levels across Azeroth. Is she pragmatic, yes, is she evil, very much so.

Forsaken don't force anyone to join them in general, let alone serve in their army.

[Deleted]

Well any individual ordering so many horrible tortures and deaths is evil. And that's why I like her and I'm afraid of Blizz pulling another redemption bs ala Kerrigan. I try to imagine the insanity of Arthas standing on top of Icecrown shouting ''Northrend IZ FREEEEEEEE!'' and the Argent Crusaders cheering along with him. Or a Naaru coming out of nowhere shoving Tirion away because Arthas is destined for greater things and takes him to his home planet.

[Mehrunes]

The women and children she gassed in Gilneas disagree. Yes, a few of us escaped thanks to a rescue from the Night Elves, but it would have been genocide without their help.

The fundamental factor of a genocide is the intent to destroy a group of people for some of their traits. Sylvanas likely didn't give a shit about the Gilnean people one way or another, let alone about their traits. She didn't pursue them after they escaped, she didn't deploy the Blight anywhere else than the city after it was reconquered by Gilnean army, she didn't even conquer Gilneas after Gilneans and Alliance abandoned it.

And despite what Sylvanas apologists try to argue, most civilized societies recognize a difference between attacking military targets and using indiscriminate weapons (WMDs) that wipe out whole populations. Guessing the same players who feel Sylvanas using poison gas is ok, also have no problems with North Korea using nukes or Syria using chemical weapons?

The Blight is not a gas. And wouldn't meet the definition of WMDs (starting with the "mass" part). Sylvanas started deploying it in the city only after a mass surge of Gilnean military reconquered it.

Norms in the time of WoW include Thrall stopping Jaina from destroying Orgrimmar because of all the innocent civilians who would be killed, despite what just happened to Theramore. Norms in the time of WoW include Anduin and Velen intervening to stop the fighting outside the Exodar, because people were being hurt who didn't deserve it.

I cannot imagine Anduin or Thrall ordering the use of WMDs on any city, but we all know Sylvanas did. That is because they are good and she is evil.

The difference being that Jaina specifically wanted to kill as many Orcs as possible, including the children that would grow to green monstrosities or whatever. Sylvanas wanted to root the Gilneans out of the city.

[Super Kami Dende]

She is tolerated Evil. Though I hope very soon she dies and is removed from the lore for good, too much time has been wasted on her shit character.

[omeomorfismo]

most funniest thing ever.
varian was horrified when invaded undercity and discovered human experimentation.
murloc soup is a typical stormwyndian food.

lol

[TriHard]

No, she's not evil. It's just the alliance fanboys that try to make her out to be one.

[Mehrunes]

So many people indoctrinated by sylvanas' .. charm? I cant believe how many people defend her actions, claiming that she only attacks millitary targets or some bullshit. We get it, you are horde, but some some freaking farm (hillsbrad fields) wasnt any millitary target. Southshore had its defenses but they had right to live there. ''Hurr durr we are dead and we have to kill everyone, because lordaeron belongs to the forsaken something something'' or ''in order to survive, we have to invade everyone so we can replenish our ranks''

People of Hillsbrad fields formed a militia all the way back to Vanilla. Militias are enemy combatants. And what is your idea of how Cata was supposed to go. Alliance starts a world war and Sylvanas was supposed to go to enemy outposts and sing kumbaya with them? Or just bend over to Varian opening new fronts (which outposts like Southshore supplied), like he did in Andorhal?

Judging these acts should not be dependent on factions. Those attacks are beneath Horde honour, as Drek'thar has already pointed out.

Except he broke the fundamental law of the Horde when he refused help, so yeah, much honor indeed. And weirdly enough he bent the knee when Sylvanas became Warchief.

Then why i can't kill these fucking children patrols in SW?
There are examples of both horde and alliance condemning use of WMD (Garrosh in stonetalon, SoO and Jaina), but Sylvanas just doesn't give a fuck

Blight isn't a WMD. And Garrosh condemned Stonetalon campaign for its targets.

I would argue, she just wanted to flood orgrimmar to end this conflict (and fulfill her crave for revenge), kill all militants and sacrifice horde civilians, which in comparison to attack on gilneas at least looks similar - Sylvanas wanted to take out all militants and sacrifice gilneas civilians

Except she explicitly said herself she wanted to kill Orcs in general.

[united]

And another one its funny you people thinking she gonna be killed she wont hihi. Its the same with you that was 100% sure hillary would win its so satisfying to watch you realise you are wrong.

lmaooo im dead

[Mehrunes]

Yes he is.
At the moment, she is no different from Arthas, raising dead people against their will, forcing them into an undeath existance, the same thing she despised Arthas for.

Except for the differences that were clarified by Word of God.

[Deleted]

The true question is: "Is Mudmug truly evil?"