Arena ruined PvP

[RelaZ]

If you guys stop piling up on Caolela, you will note that a lot of what he says is true.

I'll stop "piling up" on Caolela when he stops acting stupid.

Yes, a great proportion of ratings is bought and sold. Heck, that's why the few top guys who didn't leave yet keep playing still (that plus, at the very top, streams and the chimaera of having a special relationship with Blizzard - I hope Holinka leaving upset quite a number of the idiots pursuing this, because now they will have to build rapport with a new guy).

No, a great proportion of ratings are not sold and bought. Ever since WoD S1 (the mass dq season) piloting is almost unheard of. And top teams got dq'd at Blizzcon qualifiers last year for it as well (Nolifer), so the top players aren't really doing it anymore. Sure it happens, but piloting is almost gone, self plays are the new thing - but that's not cheating.

Yes, Blizzard have a very spotty record preventing cheaters in arenas and (moreso) RBGs. There were seasons where like half of the top were damn scripters with autokicks and whatnot.

Mmh, they did, up until mid-WoD where they started aggressively banning honorbuddy, pqr, flyhacks and all the other hacks people used. Nowadays cheating is very uncommon, similar to say Cata days. Well, besides the occasional russian flyhack

Did he say that anyone who is higher than him is a cheater? No, I am not seeing that. That's someone exaggerating.

Lets see what I can dig up.

I've been on teams that were as good as any at the top, except they refused to cheat.

Implying everyone who's higher than him, the top teams included, all cheat.

Now, I disagree with him and agree with you in terms of arena demanding much more skill than RBGs in the current history of WoW as we know it, yes. But could you all maybe concentrate on discussing the subject instead of namecalling?

Yeah, sure. I just pointed this out to him (Arena > RBG in terms of skill), he's the one who wouldn't listen to reason.

[rda]

ever since wod s1 (the mass dq season) piloting is almost unheard of.

ROFL

OK, whatever.

PS: I *personally* know the guys who are doing this. 80% of the places are bought and sold. Perhaps a quarter of that is exchanges for favors (as in, a PVE guy gets a glad, a PVP guy gets everything he needs from mythic raids). Another quarter doesn't get through due to various fuckups, both from the side of a buyer and the side of a seller, giving places to randoms. But that's all. Your "piloting is almost gone" is completely delusional.

[h4rr0d]

Don't think its as a whole. I think what really ruined PvP is Blizz trying to push arena as an esport.

[RelaZ]

ROFL

OK, whatever.

PS: I *personally* know the guys who are doing this. 80% of the places are bought and sold. Perhaps a quarter of that is exchanges for favors (as in, a PVE guy gets a glad, a PVP guy gets everything he needs from mythic raids), but that's all, and it's still buying and selling. Another quarter doesn't get through due to various fuckups, both from the side of a buyer and the side of a seller, giving places to randoms. That's it. Your "piloting is almost gone" is completely delusional.

Nice ninja edit.

I can count more than 20% of the spots of people I know of personally whom have played for their rating legitimately. Nice try with the hyperbole.

"I *personally* know the guys who are doing this.", good one. And I'm friends with Tupac. Save these kinds of unprovable, useless arguments for when you're bragging with your friends.

[rda]

I'm sure you've got great stats to back up your claims right? I have given reasons as to why its not a big thing anymore, so far you've got nothing.

You're the king of stats arn't you? Hit me!

I expanded in the post you replied to.

If you want an affidavit from Blizzard with "yes, rda is correct, here is a spreadsheet showing that", sorry, you won't get any. If that's enough for you to live free in your imaginary word, go for it.

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What reasons did you give? A team got disqualified? LOL. Yeah, that sure means they caught them all. Add 2 and 2 together and notice that maybe since they even had to disqualify a team that got to the tournament, then maybe, just maybe, that's a bit... you know... rampant?

[RelaZ]

I expanded in the post you replied to.

If you want an affidavit from Blizzard with "yes, rda is correct, here is a spreadsheet showing that", sorry, you won't get any. If that's enough for you to live free in your imaginary word, go for it.

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What reasons did you give? A team got disqualified? LOL. Yeah, that sure means they caught them all. Add 2 and 2 together and notice that maybe since they even had to disqualify a team that got to the tournament, then maybe, just maybe, that's a bit... you know... rampant?

Put 2 and 2 together yourself.

The teams want to go to blizzcon, they can't do it if they pilot people. It's called making an example for the rest of them to see (they obv couldn't ban all the teams there). Ever since S16 people are scared shitless of piloting because of how many got caught and how unlucrative the business has been (they refund dq's).

And you have no stats huh? So then stop claiming this shit is 'rampant' without a shred of evidence when I've shown just why it has decreased significantly.

[rda]

Nice ninja edit.

I can count more than 20% of the spots of people I know of personally whom have played for their rating legitimately. Nice try with the hyperbole.

"I *personally* know the guys who are doing this.", good one. And I'm friends with Tupac. Save these kinds of unprovable, useless arguments for when you're bragging with your friends.

It's a bad habit of mine to hit post and then immediately want to add more, yes, sorry for that.

In prior times when the armory had stats for matches, I'd have shown you clear cases of buyers. Right now, I don't know what I can show you.

As I said, you are free to believe what you want. But I will note that with my 13k posts there were many cases where I said something without proof for one reason or other (like that I am a dev and that I more or less know how the game code / systems work and that I have been talking with this guy from Blizzard or that guy from somewhere else) and in a big number of these cases it became apparent with time that I was not pulling anyone's leg.

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Put 2 and 2 together yourself.

The teams want to go to blizzcon, they can't do it if they pilot people. It's called making an example for the rest of them to see (they obv couldn't ban all the teams there). Ever since S16 people are scared shitless of piloting because of how many got caught and how unlucrative the business has been (they refund dq's).

And you have no stats huh? So then stop claiming this shit is 'rampant' without a shred of evidence when I've shown just why it has decreased significantly.

I am not sure what you want to say with your exhibit. Everyone knows that piloting is a big no-no, so? You mean to say that because of that, they don't do it? LOL.

I gave you a figure of 80%.

[RelaZ]

It's a bad habit of mine to hit post and then immediately want to add more, yes, sorry for that.

In prior times when the armory had stats for matches, I'd have shown you clear cases of buyers. Right now, I don't know what I can show you.

As I said, you are free to believe what you want. But I will note that with my 13k posts there were many cases where I said something without proof for one reason or other (like that I am a dev and that I more or less know how the game code / systems work and that I have been talking with this guy from Blizzard or that guy from somewhere else) and in a big number of these cases it became apparent with time that I was not pulling anyone's leg.

Nice argument, jk. "You should trust me because, in my own eyes, I'm never wrong".

[rda]

Nice argument, jk. "You should trust me because, in my own eyes, I'm never wrong".

It's not that. It's "you are free to believe whatever, but if you want to know, you are wrong and you'd have your proof if, say, they kept the logs at the armory".

[RelaZ]

It's not that. It's "you are free to believe whatever, but if you want to know, you are wrong and you'd have your proof if, say, they kept the logs at the armory".

Its more like "you are free to believe whatever, but if you want to know, I have zero proof and as a last ditch effort I'm going to refer to logs that don't exist to make myself look better". Said logs would probably prove me right, that since Legion/late WoD most high rateds have earned their rating legitimately. Anything else just screams of conspiracy theories.

[rda]

Its more like "you are free to believe whatever, but if you want to know, I have zero proof and as a last ditch effort I'm going to refer to logs that don't exist to make myself look better". Said logs would probably prove me right, that since Legion/late WoD most high rateds have earned their rating legitimately. Anything else just screams of conspiracy theories.

When WoW dies, look for interviews with guys like prestige-gaming.org.

Your faith in Santa Claus will perhaps be shattered, but maybe you won't be so quick to believe in other fairy tales after that.

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Ever since S16 people are scared shitless of piloting because of how many got caught and how unlucrative the business has been (they refund dq's).

I am sorry, I returned to briefly comment on this sentence. It is simply amazing how sure you seem of what you are saying yet how ridiculously uninformed you really are. I guess you got a glad once or a couple of times and you think this makes you an expert in all things related to PVP. If so, keep in mind that (a) it doesn't and (b) you aren't the only one with high ratings, and some even have other directly relevant knowledge as well.

I will explain to you how things are done these days. There is zero risk. Just zero.

The buyer pays money to get a glad achievement. The seller has several methods of fulfilling the request. One of the methods is this: the seller buys a new Bnet account using the name of the buyer. The seller creates a new character on that account. He levels it, gears it, makes it eligible for the glad rating by getting the required number of wins, then gets a glad rating. Then the season ends and *AFTER* the seller's char gets his glad title, the seller transfers the account to the buyer. The buyer gets the achievement that he wanted. The seller gets the money. Everything is legit. It is completely untrackable for current Blizzard.

There are other methods as well.

Welcome to real life.

Now let's get back to that unfounded assumption of yours that you know how it is while in fact most of the things you think you know here is just your wishful thinking. Who exactly is scared shitless? You assume someone has to be, but nobody has any reason to. The process of selling and buying changed a bit, that's all. Most of the change was NOT because Blizzard banned too many, nah, they didn't, it was because there are buyers who would pay for extra super-100%-bulletproof guarantee and the process where they only come in at the very end to get the reward and are not implicated in any way before that happens. That's all there is to it.

Now, like it regularly happens with know-nothings who make a hundred of bizarre conjectures for the wrong reasons, you, too, manage to say something that ends up being true in one of them. The profits *are* down. But why? I will let you guess. Come on, make a guess. It's because the game is doing worse and worse and there are just less potential buyers on one hand and less spots to sell on the other hand.

You are welcome.

[Caolela]

You can stop now, nobody actually cares about your opinion anymore.

You mean nobody in your lonely basement. Nice cop out when you're faced with facts that ripped you a new one.

Now go sit down and STFU son.

[RelaZ]

When WoW dies, look for interviews with guys like prestige-gaming.org.

Your faith in Santa Claus will perhaps be shattered, but maybe you won't be so quick to believe in other fairy tales after that.

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Yeah, they'll all tell you that during WoD they took a major hit and never fully recovered. But I'm sure your imaginary "boosting friends" know better.

I am sorry, I returned to briefly comment on this sentence. It is simply amazing how sure you seem of what you are saying yet how ridiculously uninformed you really are. I guess you got a glad once or a couple of times and you think this makes you an expert in all things related to PVP. If so, keep in mind that (a) it doesn't and (b) you aren't the only one with high ratings, and some even have other directly relevant knowledge as well.

So you're the one who's an expert in all things related to PvP then I guess? Based on nothing other than your claim that in your "13000 post" you are never wrong? Okay. Sure. Nice irony, mr PvP expert. At least I have logic behind my arguments. You're just saying "buuuut I knooooow".

I will explain to you how things are done these days. There is zero risk. Just zero.

The buyer pays money to get a glad achievement. The seller has several methods of fulfilling the request. One of the methods is this: the seller buys a new Bnet account using the name of the buyer. The seller creates a new character on that account. He levels it, gears it, makes it eligible for the glad rating by getting the required number of wins, then gets a glad rating. Then the season ends and *AFTER* the seller's char gets his glad title, the seller transfers the account to the buyer. The buyer gets the achievement that he wanted. The seller gets the money. Everything is legit. It is completely untrackable for current Blizzard.

There are other methods as well.

Not everyone is aware of these methods and all they know is "so many people have got banned/dq'd, I'm scared now". So they don't even go to the website to begin with. It's called a deterent, S16 mass dq's was one. But good on you for telling people it's all safe, maybe you helped "your buddies" business some.

You have added nothing that supports your "a substantial amount of rating/titles are bought" theory other than "I know boosters". Boosting happens, but that it would be a major thing to the point that titles/rating are bogus is just a rediculous conspiracy theory.

Now let's get back to that unfounded assumption of yours that you know how it is while in fact most of the things you think you know here is just your wishful thinking. Who exactly is scared shitless? You assume someone has to be, but nobody has any reason to. The process of selling and buying changed a bit, that's all. Most of the change was NOT because Blizzard banned too many, nah, they didn't, it was because there are buyers who would pay for extra super-100%-bulletproof guarantee and the process where they only come in at the very end to get the reward and are not implicated in any way before that happens. That's all there is to it.

Now, like it regularly happens with know-nothings who make a hundred of bizarre conjectures for the wrong reasons, you, too, manage to say something that ends up being true in one of them. The profits *are* down. But why? I will let you guess. Come on, make a guess. It's because the game is doing worse and worse and there are just less potential buyers on one hand and less spots to sell on the other hand.

How does that even make sense in your head? "Okay people are getting banned so we had to offer an extra pricey option with more safety and this clearly brings in more customers than before the dq's". You can't refute that S16 dq's + the fact that Blizzard openly dq'ing a team at blizzcon worked as a deterent and should logically mean boosting is down. There is nothing you can say that would point to anything other than boosting being down because you don't have any facts backing you up.

The only thing you have are conspiracy theories of your imaginary "boosting friends".

You are welcome.

[inkberry]

Do you guys actually play in the gladiator bracket? If you did you wouldn't be having this argument. Cheating has basically been nonexistent since 7.1. That's really the end of the discussion.

Yeah last expansion was basically a nightmare. Cheating was rampant. About 40% of teams in wod above 2400 there was some kind of cheating abuse going on. I literally have not seen one form of obvious ToS breaking above 2500 in MONTHS. Saying it was or is >~80% is a gigantic exaggeration. It has never been quite that high. Blizzard has cracked down on it pretty hard in legion, a literal 180 turn from their methods in WoD.

[Viikkis]

So PvP has been ruined since 2007 how did you all survive until now?

[rda]

Yeah last expansion was basically a nightmare. Cheating was rampant. About 40% of teams in wod above 2400 there was some kind of cheating abuse going on. I literally have not seen one form of obvious ToS breaking above 2500 in MONTHS. Saying it was or is >~80% is a gigantic exaggeration. It has never been quite that high. Blizzard has cracked down on it pretty hard in legion, a literal 180 turn from their methods in WoD.

If you are referring to the 80% from my post, that figure is about something else, not about the number of cheaters. You misread.

[inkberry]

It really doesn't matter, just forget I said it. One person or one group of people cheating is already too many, but Blizzard has done a fantastic job of getting rid of them this expansion after the rampant abuse in WoD.

[Crruor]

To repeat myself forever, class design ruined pvp. And only class design.

If class design is great pvp is great (as its the only thing that matters for pvp), if its dumb pvp is bad. The end.


Take wod, best gearing system in forever (bar ignoreable ashran), amazing QoL changes (including those from mop) all around i.e catchup conquest, no pve gear in pvp, personal rating and so on. But the expansion still wasnt good pvp wise, just because classes werent fun.

Woltk had a horrible horrible pvp system but it was(/is on private servers) fun because the classes are well made, same with cata, despite the endless need for pve gear and total BS gear system (you were forced to pve, there were no good pvp trinket, bar the actual trinket). Mop imo hit the sweet spot in s14/15 of good gearing and catchup system with fun class design while maintaining some depths with reforging and professions.

But ultimately its only class design that matters!

[RelaZ]

To repeat myself forever, class design ruined pvp. And only class design.

If class design is great pvp is great (as its the only thing that matters for pvp), if its dumb pvp is bad. The end.


Take wod, best gearing system in forever (bar ignoreable ashran), amazing QoL changes (including those from mop) all around i.e catchup conquest, no pve gear in pvp, personal rating and so on. But the expansion still wasnt good pvp wise, just because classes werent fun.

Woltk had a horrible horrible pvp system but it was(/is on private servers) fun because the classes are well made, same with cata, despite the endless need for pve gear and total BS gear system (you were forced to pve, there were no good pvp trinket, bar the actual trinket). Mop imo hit the sweet spot in s14/15 of good gearing and catchup system with fun class design while maintaining some depths with reforging and professions.

But ultimately its only class design that matters!

This.

And to everyone claiming the current retarded class design is due to "muh e-sports". You are wrong, and stupid. Top e-sporters (and basically the entire competitive community with them) were completely against WoD and Legion class design. It's the PvErs & devs nostalgic love for TBC and unskilled PvP that got us here.

[rda]

To repeat myself forever, class design ruined pvp. And only class design.

If class design is great pvp is great (as its the only thing that matters for pvp), if its dumb pvp is bad. The end.

Take wod, best gearing system in forever (bar ignoreable ashran), amazing QoL changes (including those from mop) all around i.e catchup conquest, no pve gear in pvp, personal rating and so on. But the expansion still wasnt good pvp wise, just because classes werent fun.

I disagree that WoD "wasn't good pvp wise". Or, rather, I am fine with you not liking it (and I don't like it much either, to me it was a step down from MoP although not catastrophic), but if we are talking about why PVP collapsed in terms of participation, then we are talking about the definition of "good" that coincides with the definition of "popular". And WoD PVP was plenty popular. There was a decline in the number of players because it was everywhere, the expansion was crap. But PVP didn't decline faster than the game overall, in fact it held up slightly better than the rest of the game.

Class design obviously plays a big role in how popular PVP is. But there are two other factors in Legion that are more significant:

1. No PVP gear. The cycle of "I PVP -> I get PVP gear -> this gear is best PVP gear in the game and it helps me PVP more than if I were doing something else" broken. One has to PVE, etc.

2. The part where one has to PVE is incredibly grindy. And for all practical purposes, infinite.

If they only redesigned classes and kept the rest of the system where it is, we'd have the usual case of PVP getting worse than before, but not to the point where it collapses and loses all blood in a matter of months in a big disaster. It's because of the two things above that the disaster happened. Conversely, if they didn't touch classes and only did the two things above, we'd be in the same place we are now and nothing would have saved PVP, neither grounding totems nor their stupid esport initiative with which they woke up 5-8 years late.

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And to everyone claiming the current retarded class design is due to "muh e-sports". You are wrong, and stupid. Top e-sporters (and basically the entire competitive community with them) were completely against WoD and Legion class design.

I could care less about "they pruned abilities because of the e-sports" argument, but it's not what you are replying to above at all. You seem to think that the argument is "they pruned abilities because top PVPers asked them to do so, so that they can do e-sports". It's not that. What people are saying is "they pruned abilities because they thought the game would then be better suited to be e-sports". As in, more understandable and more watchable. Whether this is the case or not, I don't care, but you are replying to something completely bizarre and made up.

It is rather telling that you can't make two posts without another loud bla bla bla that happens because you misunderstood or misread something once again. Perhaps you are just dumb. Or maybe you are posting drunk, I don't know.