Chaos theory overrated?

[Sarevokcz]

because haste gains value with t20 and haste gains value with cloak, meaning you'll get more haste items.

so indirectly, you actually get less procs without t20 because haste will have lower value => you will have less haste

eh, when you do the math and realize how much haste you would need to get one extra BD and 20 fury from it per minute, or how little haste actually does for cloak uptime on short and medium bosses, you will gladly go back to sephuz or shoulders

[Artemol]

As i previously stated, 99% of DHs have no clue what they're talking about.
I called it out as soon as the introduced the Cloak that it was crap (Compared to what we have, keeping in mind that we were going to get the t20's we have today)

Every single DH on Fel Hammer Discord said "omg look at sims, its bis", trust whomever simmed it!

I f. Told u so.

- Best DH EU signing out

[xmr1]

It's definitely closer to BiS than it is to "crap" so I'm not sure what you're trying to brag about.

[Remso]

So i have all the leggos except for the talent ring, and trinket... currently i use anger and chaos theory, i have 4 piece t20, should i ditch the cloak for another leggo?

[Deleted]

Not really sure why people say cloak is garbage.
Sure, it's randomness is not very welcome on progression and sometimes it's quite annoying procing it and then being fury starved for the whole duration. But honestly, the whole class is RNG so why not go all in and reap the rewards when you are lucky? Having it proc back to back on pull sure feels good.

[Deleted]

Not really sure why people say cloak is garbage.
Sure, it's randomness is not very welcome on progression and sometimes it's quite annoying procing it and then being fury starved for the whole duration. But honestly, the whole class is RNG so why not go all in and reap the rewards when you are lucky? Having it proc back to back on pull sure feels good.

I got the cloak on my toon and I had a whole M+ run for example without a single proc and also a whole bossfight without a single proc. In this situations you pull more dps with any other legendary.

[Deleted]

So i have all the leggos except for the talent ring, and trinket... currently i use anger and chaos theory, i have 4 piece t20, should i ditch the cloak for another leggo?

This what I'm gona say on thsi topic:
1. Sephus - is actualy useful on half the fights this tier - Demonic Inquisition, Harjatan, Mistress and Desolate host. Maybe even on Maiden if they let you interrupt.
2. Shoulders - Goroth, Sisters(maybe), Avatar, KJ
3. Belt - Avatar and maybe KJ if you try to push his first intermission fast.

This is, in my opinion, how the ranking for 2nd legendary prio look in practice. Screw Sim.

[Deleted]

Then I'm rather lucky, it's procing fairly often on bigger packs in M+ for me.
Also, I don't have anger so I might be biased, as shoulders + cloak seems to be offering the highest DPS increase overall for me. I've also been using trinket sometimes, but feels rather dull.

// Got Sephuz yday, so I'll probably try that too.

[Deleted]

there are a few problems with CT - in theory (haha) its a really good legendary, because what it basically does is granting you an additional full duration CB on the course of a 4min fight (on average with decent procc luck ~30 BD every 8s).

so heres where things get problematic:
-if you are low on fury when you get a procc u are most likely to waste a few seconds of the procc, thus losing out on value.
-other than that, there are times where you BD and a second later get a boss mechanic that forces you to get into distance thus not being able to do dmg on the boss and losing the procc
-to get the best out of the legendary it has to procc during your opener, during Bloodlust or meta - if thats not the case its only average after all

i got a few really good pulls with it, but also some really bad ones - its just hell RNG.

- - - Updated - - -

This what I'm gona say on thsi topic:
1. Sephus - is actualy useful on half the fights this tier - Demonic Inquisition, Harjatan, Mistress and Desolate host. Maybe even on Maiden if they let you interrupt.
2. Shoulders - Goroth, Sisters(maybe), Avatar, KJ
3. Belt - Avatar and maybe KJ if you try to push his first intermission fast.

shoulders is like the worst legy on KJ because you have so much downtime on course of the fight that u cant spend enough fury to make use of the CD reduction.
better use belt or CT on KJ.

[Ctee]

This what I'm gona say on thsi topic:
1. Sephus - is actualy useful on half the fights this tier - Demonic Inquisition, Harjatan, Mistress and Desolate host. Maybe even on Maiden if they let you interrupt.
2. Shoulders - Goroth, Sisters(maybe), Avatar, KJ
3. Belt - Avatar and maybe KJ if you try to push his first intermission fast.

This is, in my opinion, how the ranking for 2nd legendary prio look in practice. Screw Sim.

Shoulders are not good on KJ due to shitty lineups with phases/intermissions/downtime.

I think the best answer is to always sim yourself to see what would be the best combo for yourself. I think Anger is default 1 of 2 leggos and with that said I think the following make sense to use:

Goroth: Cini/CT
Demonic Inquisition: CT/Sephuz
Harjatan: Sephuz/CT (Adds to interrupt will give Sephuz mileage and its a pretty cleavy fight at times)
Mistress: Moarg/Cini/CT (I personally parse high running Moarg and bloodlet here. I play 1131112 and love it)
Sisters: Cini/CT/DoG
Desolate: Cini/CT/DoG
Maiden: Cini/CT/DoG
Avatar: Cini/CT/DoG
KJ: Cini/CT/Sephuz

Couple of things, I don't have Sephuz yet so I can't sim it on myself, not sure how amazing it is but I think it could prop be used on a lot of fights. I think Cini gets worse the longer the fight is and that's when I think DoG gets stronger. CT could prob be used on pretty much every fight. I just got it so I will see how my damage output looks like this week.

[Saverem]

Seems like you have no clue what you are talking about. But i might be wrong..

To be fair to him, no one really understands Chaos Theory. It's a topic of ongoing debate in the mathematical and scientific community.

[Deleted]

I don't get all this hate on DoG on KJ. This is only for heroic but I use it on KJ on pull, then it lines up with lust in p2 perfectly (about 10 seconds in), then I can use again either to push before darkphase (in a pug) or just go ham at the start of p3 as usual. So really you guys dont know what the fuck you are on about and maybe you should look at logs once in a while because DoG and Cini are pretty even, fuck Sephuz.

- - - Updated - - -

Wrong. Many DH players use bladedance right now. Because of first blood.


Wrong. Yes id does. But it doesn't change the fact that many DH players are using first blood right now anyways.


Wrong. Nope. You'll get the buff after the last crush of blade dance. So the prog-spending bladedance won't get any profit out of the buff.
And you'll need an insane amount of haste to get another bladedance to fit in this 6 second window.
Metaphase? Should work.


Right.

And as Svisalith said: we'll get more versa and haste.
But thats all.

Actually it's -

Right. You need to use BD to proc, read what he said maybe.

Right. T20 does infact make it better and he never said anything about people not using BD so why do you keep saying wrong when he isn't?

Wrong.

But on another note, the fact you get fury refund from the skill that procs CB it benefits your DPS window by allowing at the very least 1 CS.

Wrong, in the sense that there is no point stacking haste to get another blade dance because you won't hit the cap needed to get an extra during CB.

[Ctee]

I don't get all this hate on DoG on KJ. This is only for heroic but I use it on KJ on pull, then it lines up with lust in p2 perfectly (about 10 seconds in), then I can use again either to push before darkphase (in a pug) or just go ham at the start of p3 as usual. So really you guys dont know what the fuck you are on about and maybe you should look at logs once in a while because DoG and Cini are pretty even, fuck Sephuz.

- - - Updated - - -



Actually it's -

Right. You need to use BD to proc, read what he said maybe.

Right. T20 does infact make it better and he never said anything about people not using BD so why do you keep saying wrong when he isn't?

Wrong.

But on another note, the fact you get fury refund from the skill that procs CB it benefits your DPS window by allowing at the very least 1 CS.

Wrong, in the sense that there is no point stacking haste to get another blade dance because you won't hit the cap needed to get an extra during CB.

It all comes down to simming yourself, but I agree and don't think Sephuz would be ideal for KJ. I think more data needs to pour in before people decide on CT or not. I'd guess there's a lot of players who still do not have it so more data is needed. DoG/CT/Cini could be used on KJ, the answer is to sim yourself and see what you come out on top with.

[Orissan]

Shoulder + Cape has the highest top end I believe, though it's reliability is pretty terrible, and not something for progression ever. Probably would show up at some point on Logs.

Both shoulder / cape plus Ring are about the same, and both are as reliable as DH can be, really more about the fight / your gear more then anything.

[Thraps]

It is good due to the Synergy with T20 4 pc.

there is no synergy with the t20 set bonus. You could for example take chaos cleave and still use blade dance to proc it just the same. The set doesn't enhance the proc chance or buff the proc in any way.

Your still going to use blade dance in any scenario as either a filler, cleave ability for adds or small fury generator so people saying the synergy with t20 is just false.

Last point now, you blade dance, it procs, now that ability has now gone therefore now not synergising with the 2/4set since blade dance will be on cooldown and the proc gone before the next blade dance!!

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

It is a massive piece of shit, and i called it back in the 7.2.5 beta when all the nerds were saying it was bis. I've seen it proc, overlap after 2 seconds, and not proc again for the rest of the boss fight. On top of that, it usually procs once, maybe twice every 4-5 mins, it's awful.

[Thraps]

It is a massive piece of shit, and i called it back in the 7.2.5 beta when all the nerds were saying it was bis. I've seen it proc, overlap after 2 seconds, and not proc again for the rest of the boss fight. On top of that, it usually procs once, maybe twice every 4-5 mins, it's awful.

i would agree with your timings once maybe twice maybe per fight it procs. its pretty garbage i agree.

[HeiAggra]

I have all Havoc legs and from my exp SimC is a tool and it's to have a idea not the word of GOD. Sim and then try it out.
I preffer DofG and AoHG because of that extra meta. In terms of raid not simc it work better for me.

[Deleted]

there is no synergy with the t20 set bonus. You could for example take chaos cleave and still use blade dance to proc it just the same. The set doesn't enhance the proc chance or buff the proc in any way.

Your still going to use blade dance in any scenario as either a filler, cleave ability for adds or small fury generator so people saying the synergy with t20 is just false.

Last point now, you blade dance, it procs, now that ability has now gone therefore now not synergising with the 2/4set since blade dance will be on cooldown and the proc gone before the next blade dance!!

Are you daft? Using blade dance with chaos cleave on st is a dpsl oss, why the fuck would you ever press it if you don't have first blood which 1) ups the st damage 2) with t20 refunds 5 fury AND ups the crit chance by 20% , which in my case would be a 70% chance to crit. On top of that a trait that increases your blade dance's crit damage by 20%. and on top of that, you only need 15 fury opposed to 35 fury to cast it. How in the world would you wanna press blade dance as 'filler' for 35 fury for a CHANCE to get a proc which on top of that does close to no damage on ST.

T20 litteraly has a synergy with first blood and on ST, with CT as well for every reason mentioned as well as directly (tho this it does regardless with first blood or not) with your artifact trait. Explain to me one instance where without first blood you'd use blade dance on single target. One. Sure as hell not something you'd dump fury in over chaos strike. No one claimed it to synergize with the 'proc' chance, it synergizes well because of how the kit works if you spec into first blood and indirectly, actually affects the proc chance since without first blood you wouldn't blade dance either way unless there are 3+ targets to begin with. So going first blood = spamming bd on cd= more chance to proc CT. Set bonus+art trait=buffs blade dance. Synergy. Going chaos cleave = only bd on 3+ targets, aka not on cd in other words = less chance to proc it because you press it a lot less, or not at all in goroth's example. = meaning t20 won't do anything, at all for you. = no synergy.

[Backstabak]

Are you daft? Using blade dance with chaos cleave on st is a dpsl oss, why the fuck would you ever press it if you don't have first blood which 1) ups the st damage 2) with t20 refunds 5 fury AND ups the crit chance by 20% , which in my case would be a 70% chance to crit. On top of that a trait that increases your blade dance's crit damage by 20%. and on top of that, you only need 15 fury opposed to 35 fury to cast it. How in the world would you wanna press blade dance as 'filler' for 35 fury for a CHANCE to get a proc which on top of that does close to no damage on ST.

T20 litteraly has a synergy with first blood and on ST, with CT as well for every reason mentioned as well as directly (tho this it does regardless with first blood or not) with your artifact trait. Explain to me one instance where without first blood you'd use blade dance on single target. One. Sure as hell not something you'd dump fury in over chaos strike. No one claimed it to synergize with the 'proc' chance, it synergizes well because of how the kit works if you spec into first blood and indirectly, actually affects the proc chance since without first blood you wouldn't blade dance either way unless there are 3+ targets to begin with. So going first blood = spamming bd on cd= more chance to proc CT. Set bonus+art trait=buffs blade dance. Synergy. Going chaos cleave = only bd on 3+ targets, aka not on cd in other words = less chance to proc it because you press it a lot less, or not at all in goroth's example. = meaning t20 won't do anything, at all for you. = no synergy.

There is zero synergy with t20. You would still pick FB, even if you didn't have CT and the set only improves on FB. The only thing that can improve CT would be more blade dances, which mean shorter CD. But that is unrealistic with the amount of haste we have.

For me, that cloack sims about 50k dps worse, with 4xT20 and 2xT19 (meaning breaking 2xt19 - I simly have nothing better to replace it). In practice it's even worse, as the effect is just random (or quasi random). It makes so, that some pulls you can be lucky and it will proc when you have a lot fury and time to spend it on boss, but others its exactly the oposite. So if you want more rng in your dps, go ahead and use it. But otherwise, shoulders + ring is just better and more reliable.