Sin Opener

[Queliice]

i want to ask about my opener ( mantle, NS, T20 2pcs), usually i used

gar > mut > rup > tb > kb > env > vend > mut (5cp) > vanish > env > mut > env > mut > env

i need some opinion on this opener so i can improve, i'll gladly try all suggestion.
thanks in advance

[Trixzy]

In the rogue discord the opener with mantle and subterfuge is;
Garr->Mut->Rup->Vend->Toxic->KB->Env->Vanish->Mut->Env->Garr->Mut->Env->Mut->Env

[Arsen]

With that opener I always end up energy capped after using Vendetta which just doesn't seem right to me. I am pretty sure I click fast enough, then again if everyone else is using it, maybe not.

[Trixzy]

With that opener I always end up energy capped after using Vendetta which just doesn't seem right to me. I am pretty sure I click fast enough, then again if everyone else is using it, maybe not.

Yes you do cap energy but it's still the best opener at the moment because you will either cap some energy or cp.

[Nekroman]

Currently im energy starved at the wrong times and capping at the wrong times so I thought the same about using vandetta too early(energy wise)but its a loss not to. Luckilly we just face smash whatever is off cd so not that big a deal atm.

[Queliice]

In the rogue discord the opener with mantle and subterfuge is;
Garr->Mut->Rup->Vend->Toxic->KB->Env->Vanish->Mut->Env->Garr->Mut->Env->Mut->Env

i am using nightstalker, can you help ?

[elfporn]

i want to ask about my opener ( mantle, NS, T20 2pcs), usually i used

gar > mut > rup > tb > kb > env > vend > mut (5cp) > vanish > env > mut > env > mut > env

i need some opinion on this opener so i can improve, i'll gladly try all suggestion.
thanks in advance

Swap TB and KB.
And you *should* be able to clip in a 4th envenom on the second crit window within the last tenth of a second, for sure with lust.

If you can stand to hold off until second crit window for vendetta, you can use the energy regen from vendetta to make certain you fill every gcd. Determining if you need to do so will take practice on the dummy.

- - - Updated - - -

In the rogue discord the opener with mantle and subterfuge is;
Garr->Mut->Rup->Vend->Toxic->KB->Env->Vanish->Mut->Env->Garr->Mut->Env->Mut->Env

This is incorrect. In this opener you're entering the second crit window with 0 combo points, and using garrote during the second crit window for no reason at all (garrote can easily be refreshed after). There may be some slight merit to using garrote at the start of vanish windows for nightstalker with the t20 4p bonus, though i'm uncertain and won't be doing so.

Said opener loses 1 mut in first window, and 1 envenom and 1 mut in second crit window.

[Elyzibeth]

I've been using (with t20 4pc):

Garrote > KB > Rupture > Mut > Vendetta > Envenom > Mut > TB > Vanish > Envenom > Mut > Garrote > Envenom > Mut/Envenom spam.

Not sure if it's necessarily optimal, but it's pretty close. with that set up you don't energy cap, you don't overcombo point cap generally (maybe one from TB), the early KB use allows you to get nearly all of your end KB ticks into the 2nd crit window. It puts out pretty solid numbers.

[elfporn]

I've been using (with t20 4pc):

Garrote > KB > Rupture > Mut > Vendetta > Envenom > Mut > TB > Vanish > Envenom > Mut > Garrote > Envenom > Mut/Envenom spam.

Not sure if it's necessarily optimal, but it's pretty close. with that set up you don't energy cap, you don't overcombo point cap generally (maybe one from TB), the early KB use allows you to get nearly all of your end KB ticks into the 2nd crit window. It puts out pretty solid numbers.

Why are you garroting in the second crit window 8-9 seconds into the opener, well before a refresh is needed. There's no reason i can think of that you would do that.

[Elyzibeth]

To get a 100% pandemic refreshed garrote. That garrote ticks for so much damage it's crazy. If I refresh it 10 seconds after casting, that means my garrote dot is at ~5 seconds remaining, I throw another 13-15 seconds onto it and it refreshes at the 125% increased damage level. For some reason I want to say when I do this ingame my weak auras tell me I have around 23 seconds of buffed garrote, at 240k per tick, that's pretty solid.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I double checked in discord to see what they're recommending for openers with subterfuge and 4 piece. They actually linked me the exact opener I put in my above post. But we came to that openers conclusion on the blizzard rogue forums.

[elfporn]

To get a 100% pandemic refreshed garrote. That garrote ticks for so much damage it's crazy. If I refresh it 10 seconds after casting, that means my garrote dot is at ~5 seconds remaining, I throw another 13-15 seconds onto it and it refreshes at the 125% increased damage level. For some reason I want to say when I do this ingame my weak auras tell me I have around 23 seconds of buffed garrote, at 240k per tick, that's pretty solid.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I double checked in discord to see what they're recommending for openers with subterfuge and 4 piece. They actually linked me the exact opener I put in my above post. But we came to that openers conclusion on the blizzard rogue forums.

Makes some sense then, do it before vanish though - 2-3 seconds before you list it in the opener, but outside a crit window.

Also, mine crits for around 550-600k+, though i'm using nighstalker i think. I will need to look closer at this. Thanks for the explaination

[Elyzibeth]

Not sure what you mean by do it before vanish though? Do you mean literally refresh your garrote before you cast vanish to refresh it? If that's what you mean, absolutely DO NOT do that. you must vanish for the subterfuge buff to take effect, otherwise, you override your buffed one from your opening attack with a non buffed one, which will be a DPS loss.

The above opener that I listed was for a subterfuge spec, using nightstalker I absolutely wouldn't be refreshing garrote in my crit window.

[Deleted]

I am using (with nightstalker)

[[[gar -> mut -> rupture -> KB -> Vendetta -> TB -> vanish -> env -> mut -> env -> mut -> env -> mut -> env ]]]-> mut -> gar

[[[crit buff window]]]

I'm fine with it.

[elfporn]

Not sure what you mean by do it before vanish though? Do you mean literally refresh your garrote before you cast vanish to refresh it? If that's what you mean, absolutely DO NOT do that. you must vanish for the subterfuge buff to take effect, otherwise, you override your buffed one from your opening attack with a non buffed one, which will be a DPS loss.

The above opener that I listed was for a subterfuge spec, using nightstalker I absolutely wouldn't be refreshing garrote in my crit window.

I completely forgot that garrote has increased damage with subterfuge! Derps. The posted openers make more sense now. However, as you said, if using nightstalker, don't use those openers.

It still doesn't seem right to use garrote in the crit window though, despite subterfuge.

- - - Updated - - -

I am using (with nightstalker)

[[[gar -> mut -> rupture -> KB -> Vendetta -> TB -> vanish -> env -> mut -> env -> mut -> env -> mut -> env ]]]-> mut -> gar

[[[crit buff window]]]

I'm fine with it.

You can slip in an extra mut->envenom in the first crit window(after rupture) at the cost of using TB outside the crit window.

[Deleted]

You can slip in an extra mut->envenom in the first crit window(after rupture) at the cost of using TB outside the crit window.

I tried this before.

You can play this without pooling, but this way you will just switch the last envenom of the second crit block into the first block, plus the additional mutilate in the first crit block is "stealing" the slot of TB. There is also no guarantee that you have 5cps before vanish.

If you play this with pooling (somewhere around the Vendetta -> Tb block) you will actually benifit from 1 additional mut-envenom in the opener, but you will have some seconds without the crit buff before the vanish and ofc no guarantee of 5cps before vanish without any further GCDs.

finally I ended in the opener I posted before.

[Dunderstudy]

Since vanish doesn't respect gcd can you time a garrote upon vanish and have it deal the increased damage?

I'm sort of doing something along those lines with envenoms and staying in stealth so I can extend the crit window.

Although it sometimes doesn't work on every fight.

[Bacstabbath]

So am i getting this correct, here is my opener i tried last night, with no tier atm. (just got my 1st last night ) Im running EP with Subterferge w/ Mantle and Boots

Garrote - Mut - Rup - KB - TB - Ven - EnV - Mut til 5 CP - Vanish - EnV - Mut - Env - Mut - Env - Garrote

I get that last Garrote in just as the crit window is ending, about .5 seconds left. Am i on the right trail? Im prepping myself for when i FINALLY get my 2pc and 4pc..... im the last in my guild, but still top DPS

[Eazy]

Without Mantle of the Master Assassin Tier 20 (4 Piece)

Garrote
Mutilate till 4 to 5 combo points
Rupture
Mutilate till 4 to 5 combo points
Envenom
Vendetta
Toxic Blade
Kingsbane
Proceed with normal rotation
Vanish when you can refresh Garrote with pandemic

With Mantle of the Master Assassin Tier 20 (4 Piece)

Garrote
Mutilate
Rupture
Vendetta
Toxic Blade
Kingsbane
Envenom
Vanish
Mutilate
Envenom
Garrote
Mutilate
Envenom
Mutilate
Envenom

From https://riff.tf/guide/assassination/ And it's fine.

[Deleted]

Okay another question to opener: How do you open properly on Demonic Inquisition? I#M not really sure if I Rupture them both, or if I just push my normal opener on belac?!

[Eazy]

Okay another question to opener: How do you open properly on Demonic Inquisition? I#M not really sure if I Rupture them both, or if I just push my normal opener on belac?!

I'm(with mantle) using standard opening(as I wrote above) and then I put Rupture on the second target. Trying to keep bleeds on both of them gives me more DPS than focusing on one. Of course I'm still attacking only one target whenever I use KB/TB/Vendetta/Vanish(but before that I'm refreshing bleeds on the second one for the energy).