Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Trixzy]

why is everyone getting better results with DFA on logs then?
is there just not enough people using MFD?

Because you never have 100% uptime on a boss and DFA works better for that scenario

[satori sartori]

because the general concensus was that DFA was better so it got popular, if you check logs you can see MFD popping up more and more
http://imgur.com/a/QiJpg i did every ST fight as MFD

and the difference is really marginal so in the large scheme of things it's basically up to preference, it's barely better, but on avatar, it matters cos DFA can fuck you over big time there.

Will you ever drop the T19 set 2?

[shaunika123]

Will you ever drop the T19 set 2?

i might in full mythic gear, but i really dont want to
the QoL it gives is just insane

Because you never have 100% uptime on a boss and DFA works better for that scenario

well first of all i never really got this argument,
what does MFD have to do with uptime? it's just a free finisher every ~40 seconds

second of all, you can have near 100% uptime on a lot of bosses
on demonic if you play it properly you have 100% uptime
on goroth you only have to leave the boss for like 1-2seconds every minute or so
on sisters, again if you play it properly and not placed in a shitty grp(IE have to change in a place that causes you to lose uptime) you can have 100% uptime if you know how to dodge glaives, plus MFD helps with the bird more than DFA does imo
on maiden she jumps away once, and while that can be cheesed with DFA it's not that reliable cos if you fuck it up yoU're stunned in the orbs for 8 seconds, and other than that you're again up for 100% of the fight
on avatar you do lose uptime, but DFA can wreck you in both p1 and p2

the rest are AOE fights so using DFA is self evident

[satori sartori]

What does it mean when backstab is doing higher dmg through the fight than shadowstrike?
fight is too long, bad shadowdance usage or no legendary shoulders?

[chriseggroll]

I have pretty crappy gear right now, no good legendaries or tier set, but for me all three 100 talents are pretty close damage wise, with mfd simming the highest and mos about 20k lower, just a bit behind DFA. DFA feels the best to me atm and the aoe is better than either option.

[Critical92]

What does it mean when backstab is doing higher dmg through the fight than shadowstrike?
fight is too long, bad shadowdance usage or no legendary shoulders?

With the shd cd reduction in mind i would say bad shadowdance usage, but a too long fight could be possible.
With every shd you should atleast cast 3 shadowstrikes. Only with a gloomblade build it maybe can do as much damage as shadowstrike, but backstab doens't inflict that much damage.

Edit: I run a simulation with AMR (because it is quick and easy) with the mfd build (dfa build is not good modeled in amr i think)
And shadowstrike always does more damage than backstab, but in a 10 min fight it came closer.
In fight lengths way over the normal ones (20 min+) it maybe catch up to shadowstrike or even surpass it, but amr doesn't allow over 900 secs on their website.

In the end maybe relics can play a role when someone only has BS relics.

[satori sartori]

With the shd cd reduction in mind i would say bad shadowdance usage, but a too long fight could be possible.
With every shd you should atleast cast 3 shadowstrikes. Only with a gloomblade build it maybe can do as much damage as shadowstrike, but backstab doens't inflict that much damage.

Edit: I run a simulation with AMR (because it is quick and easy) with the mfd build (dfa build is not good modeled in amr i think)
And shadowstrike always does more damage than backstab, but in a 10 min fight it came closer.
In fight lengths way over the normal ones (20 min+) it maybe catch up to shadowstrike or even surpass it, but amr doesn't allow over 900 secs on their website.

In the end maybe relics can play a role when someone only has BS relics.

I do have a backstab relic, also, I'm talking 4-5 min fight my backstab will sometimes catch up to my shadowstrike or barely surpass it, I'm guessing having no leg shoulders drags shadowstrike down a bit but still I feel I'm having to backstab a lot more than what I should.

Iam surely casting at least 3 shadowstrikes and 1 finisher per dance, maybe I'm not properly taking advantage of shadow techniques?

[Won7on]

So the MfD build, basically use it on CD? Or hold for Symbols? Or try to use it with Dance in some way?

Also, for those of us still playing with T19 2pc. Once in a while your Finality: Nightblade will actually expire (full duration is 38 and if you have Symbols-DFA coming up in the end, you may go 30 seconds without a good opportunity to refresh NB). How do you guys prioritize this? Feels bad to waste a 24% buffed Nightblade, but feels bad to delay your CDs or clip NB at 15+ seconds too.

[permp]

So the MfD build, basically use it on CD? Or hold for Symbols? Or try to use it with Dance in some way?

Also, for those of us still playing with T19 2pc. Once in a while your Finality: Nightblade will actually expire (full duration is 38 and if you have Symbols-DFA coming up in the end, you may go 30 seconds without a good opportunity to refresh NB). How do you guys prioritize this? Feels bad to waste a 24% buffed Nightblade, but feels bad to delay your CDs or clip NB at 15+ seconds too.

I always refresh with 6 secs.

[Won7on]

I always refresh with 6 secs.

Refreshing a DoT during a 25% damage buff when you could dump a 4M Eviscerate into your target instead feels shitty. But Nightblade does good DPS, especially with +20-24% from Finality. It may be the best option, IDK.

[Deleted]

So the MfD build, basically use it on CD? Or hold for Symbols? Or try to use it with Dance in some way?

Also, for those of us still playing with T19 2pc. Once in a while your Finality: Nightblade will actually expire (full duration is 38 and if you have Symbols-DFA coming up in the end, you may go 30 seconds without a good opportunity to refresh NB). How do you guys prioritize this? Feels bad to waste a 24% buffed Nightblade, but feels bad to delay your CDs or clip NB at 15+ seconds too.

On ST: Use on CD, outside of ShD
On AoE: Use on adds that are about to die to proc the reset, use a mouse over macro to achieve this

[Critical92]

On ST i can see the two specs competing against one another, but why would you play mfd at an aoe boss?
DfA's aoe part hits so hard and the combo stacks even further boost the damage that i can't see how mfd will compete against that.

[Won7on]

On ST i can see the two specs competing against one another, but why would you play mfd at an aoe boss?
DfA's aoe part hits so hard and the combo stacks even further boost the damage that i can't see how mfd will compete against that.

Something I should probably know, but haven't figured out: Does Shuriken Combo boost the first half of DFA?

[Djanco]

Something I should probably know, but haven't figured out: Does Shuriken Combo boost the first half of DFA?

no. shuriken combo only affects eviscerate. it may also be worth noting that in damage meters the damage done by death from above only shows damage done by the aoe component. the damage dealt by the eviscerate component is rolled in with regular eviscerates.

to the person asking why the mfd build is better for aoe, the answer is simple: the amount of damage you can do with a 40s mfd* on a fight with multiple, quickly killed adds (mistress, harjatan) just straight up outweighs dfa. think about it, 1 huge aoe hit every 20s or potentially multiple free eviscerates in that same window, each regular evisc hitting for 3-4m it's not that farfetched.

* the fact that the cd is 40s is the only thing that makes this build viable for ST

[Won7on]

no. shuriken combo only affects eviscerate. it may also be worth noting that in damage meters the damage done by death from above only shows damage done by the aoe component. the damage dealt by the eviscerate component is rolled in with regular eviscerates.

I figured. And I guess I already knew the answer, Evisc = Evisc and DFA = DFA, but good to know for sure.

[Critical92]

I am not at home but the aoe part of dfa hits for atleast 1 million and more per add and boosts the st damage with enhanced evics even further.
And you don t have to mouseover macro any adds just play the boss and hit most things with dfa every 20 sec.
In aoe fights it is often better to use dfa on cd.

Edit: I checked some of my logs. On Goroth mythic the aoe part of dfa had an average crit of 1,5 mio and average normal hit of 750k.
That is pure ST. Now let there be 3-4 adds and that damage goes even higher for a spell useable every 20 secs.
I don't know how other raid groups handle adds, but my raid kills adds almost simultaniously.

[Tier539]

Whats the largest Evis you guy have been able to get? had a 20m one today

[Djanco]

I am not at home but the aoe part of dfa hits for atleast 1 million and more per add and boosts the st damage with enhanced evics even further.
And you don t have to mouseover macro any adds just play the boss and hit most things with dfa every 20 sec.
In aoe fights it is often better to use dfa on cd.

Edit: I checked some of my logs. On Goroth mythic the aoe part of dfa had an average crit of 1,5 mio and average normal hit of 750k.
That is pure ST. Now let there be 3-4 adds and that damage goes even higher for a spell useable every 20 secs.
I don't know how other raid groups handle adds, but my raid kills adds almost simultaniously.

i know how dfa works. it's cleave still doesnt make it better if you can fit multiple free eviscerates via mfd in the same window of time. (i'm talking 3+ in 20s or less.) obviously if your raid is killing adds that quickly then the mfd build isnt better for you. it is not a huge damage loss to use the dfa build over the mfd build in the first place for aoe. the mfd build just ranks slightly higher for aoe in situations where you can actually get multiple mfd off.

[shaunika123]

So the MfD build, basically use it on CD? Or hold for Symbols? Or try to use it with Dance in some way?

Also, for those of us still playing with T19 2pc. Once in a while your Finality: Nightblade will actually expire (full duration is 38 and if you have Symbols-DFA coming up in the end, you may go 30 seconds without a good opportunity to refresh NB). How do you guys prioritize this? Feels bad to waste a 24% buffed Nightblade, but feels bad to delay your CDs or clip NB at 15+ seconds too.

either clip early or cast a low cp one to last one sod

as for MFD

you kinda have to feel it out

most of the time use it on CD, but i sometimes keep it for SoD, but there isnt really any definitive number i use
it also depends on whether ill do 1 or 2 dances in sod etc.

i also use at the end of dance sometimes if i got finality up and another dance charge still in the bank

I am not at home but the aoe part of dfa hits for atleast 1 million and more per add and boosts the st damage with enhanced evics even further.
And you don t have to mouseover macro any adds just play the boss and hit most things with dfa every 20 sec.
In aoe fights it is often better to use dfa on cd.

Edit: I checked some of my logs. On Goroth mythic the aoe part of dfa had an average crit of 1,5 mio and average normal hit of 750k.
That is pure ST. Now let there be 3-4 adds and that damage goes even higher for a spell useable every 20 secs.
I don't know how other raid groups handle adds, but my raid kills adds almost simultaniously.

if there's more than 1 target DFA consistently hits then it's clearly better

but you forget that MFD gives more dance/blades uptime
(and DFA also loses some autoattacks but that's negligible even accounting for ST procs)

[satori sartori]

Can I get some tips on how to use warcraft logs to check dance usage, wasted cp and energy?