Leveling overlooked every expansion?

[Vapo]

Leveling is fun during beta, after that is waste of fucking time and pain in the ass that should be skippable.

[Dangg]

Leveling is my most hated aspect of the game by far. Vanilla leveling the least enjoyable thing I ever did in this game.


Thanks Blizzard for fixing it.

[Sencha]

I would agree with you if leveling wasn't just about doing streamlined boring quests for dummies where everything is made to show you exactly which mob you need to kill and where to go precisely with highlighted zone on your map and a tracker on your screen.

[ls-]

That is because the development team is very lazy and they don't want to maintain several concurrent storylines.

It's a huge PITA even in a single player game, that's why it's not that widespread even there, it's nigh impossible to do so in an MMORPG.

By default, players should be equal and have access to the same content, this requirement can be easily ignored in single player games, different storylines would lead to imbalance/disparity, if the end result was the same "concurrency" was just an illusion, and shit would turn linear af again.

Moreover, unlike in single player games it's difficult to maintain just one main storyline in MMOs because games are expanded by expansions. Unless company decides to revamp/adjust all (or major part of) previous questing experience for the sake of consistency, players end up being "time-travellers", for instance pre-Cata levelling/questing went like Vanilla - TBC (pre-WotLK version) - WotLK - TBC (post-WotLK version, SWP stuff, etc). After Cata it became even more messed up. And should I say how expensive this affair would be? The more expansions there's the more expensive it would be to produce one because while working on new content, one would have to review/revisit/adjust/rework previous stuff. At some point it'd be cheaper to move to another project than maintaining existing one.

Single player games are expanded via either DLCs (which are often played as standalone games) or new games in the series. This way one doesn't need to maintain previously created content in anyway.

[TheVaryag]

Don't want to turn this into a vanilla vs current discussion but I just want to say the absolute best thing about vanilla wasn't the endgame, it was the leveling experience. My first level 60 took 23 Days /played to ding max level and my only alt took about 11 Days. According to people on private servers the current average is 8-10 Days I Believe.

The journey was Amazing and for a casual, imagine playing for months and months Before even reaching max level! Unheard of by todays standards where everyone is max level within a week of the xpack release. It seems like such untapped potential, instead of having a final raid tier last for >1 year why not have the leveling experience in the beginning be an Epic 2 month journey or so? Remove the stress and hype to get to endgame and start raiding, let the first raid tier last a long time so people can enjoy just leveling and exploring.

They would need to change their zone and quest design though, because the last 2 expansions have been very claustrophobic in their design cramping quests and mobs in every nook and cranny in every zone and having Everything on rails.

I say build a huuuge new continent first, then populate with quest givers etc much like the original 2 continents in vanilla and don't design the maps around hubs and how to level most efficiently.

Anyone agree or am I just a ftard who should suicide?

Like mentioned below, once Devs stopped thinking of the leveling experience as a meaningful part of the world the game started dying more and more. To me leveling was only half the game, the other half was maxing out my Proffesions, becoming a Weaponsmith, becoming the best DPS warrior, running all the dungeons, going Into raids eventually, taking down false warchiefs and so on...

And by the way, this guy's not telling you to make another Timeless Isle but across two continents. No just make better quests than there were In Vanilla, spread them out In a non-linear way (At least half of them so you're not totally lost) and there you go. Oh and no world pvp, that just doesn't work, thanks. Unless.. you bring back high end pvp gear than It might actually work like It has for 10 years since TBC until Legion decided "Nope"

Basically, when the developers started considering raiding as the only true game experience, and everything else as just a time filler, the game started dying.

This

[Blackmist]

The levelling in vanilla had to be great, because that's all 90% of players would ever see. The end game was pretty poor. Even for top players, it was run a raid once a week for enough resistance gear to actually survive the next fight, while farming up gold for the infinite sea of consumables you were expected to bring. Everyone else was lucky to see Zul Gurub.

[chooi]

No, leveling still gets way too much attention. Leveling in this current form is an antiquated concept. I'd rather have them ditch leveling completely and design the whole world for permanent interactive gameplay that changes over time. Just look at those zones for leveling: practically wasted effort and resources. World Quests? Yeah great, recycled leveling content but still nothing more than shitty daily quests.

There are other ways to increase player power. For example, Artifacts could have been Legion's leveling system without increasing max level if done right but they chose to design it as massive time sink instead.

[Dawon]

Agree on the "haters", who the f wanna spend time as a lowbie in an mmorpg? Get to endgame asap and start doing what matters!

If you like a leveling experience and such, there are games like Skyrim, Dragon Age and such.. those are MADE for the story and character development that prepare you for the final battle! An mmorpg is a game where endgame is constantly moving and the point of the game is to be THERE, not 50 levels away from it.

[Kyranna]

I level characters and do dungeons, that's pretty much it for me. Raids are something I can't tolerate anymore, having raided since MMOs exists (well, in EQ there were raids and I started there) I'm just fed up with playing this shitty version of dance dance revolution, with the exception of 10 players in normal mode, because they are easy enough. I can't complain with Legion because I have a lot of stuff to do as a non raider.
I believe Legion levelling was quite well done and pretty fun, WoD was maybe slightly better in certain areas, MoP was a much more enjoyable theme for me, but still I think they did a fine job here.

Legion class design is my biggest gripe, but that's not the current topic.

[Valrysha]

Vanilla combat was slow, regen between combat even slower, travel times abysmal, and many quests required thotbot to look up proper instructions. The quest hubs were often disjointed and could include considerable travel times. Your character probably didn't even have "proper" gear. 1-60 today is not the same journey. Much of the padding, the "time wasting" has been smoothed out.

Today WoW is developed with a clear identity and driven by efficiency. The devs know WoW is a themepark, they do not treat it as a "world" to get lost in. They craft the leveling content to tell a zone's story. Its function as a time sink reduced to a couple days, not months. All of us players at max level have gone through the "level grind". We've been there, we've done that, we do not want another large time sink standing between us and the endgame content.

In fact, if I had it my way... every new character would start at the beginning of the latest expansion. I'd place your new characters in Dalaran at level 100.

I think the nostalgia you describe is more befitting an online world. Something large and expansive to "get lost" in. To enjoy exploration, danger, and discovery. Those are just not significant features of WoW as a game. I mean, I found some joy in exploring the Broken Isles, but that can only take us so far. Vanilla WoW had "flaws" that enhanced the idea of those features, but WoW devs never actually embraced them. The game took a different direction entirely.

I'm afraid what you are asking for is another game. Though I do ponder if WoW could be reforged to suit your desired features...
Unfortunately, one should not expect the Dev team to "rethink" the game.

You just delete everything between QUOTE and /QUOTE that you don't want. With brackets [ ] around the QUOTE.



That's actually another very compelling argument against Blizzard ever doing away with levels. They wouldn't nuke a revenue stream like that. Same goes for merging the two factions, or creating one single megaserver.

Im too lazy to do the first bit LUL
anyway, it does suck that Blizz won't do it. It'd probably be good for the game but it must be making them a decent amount of money. After you've levelled 2-3 characters, you've done all the content there pretty much. Doing it all again is a horrible thought (Im levelling a DK now, I want to cry)

[DeicideUH]

Level scaling mobs may very well completely change how leveling works and make it interesting again.

IMO, Blizzard should:
- Set minimum levels for zones. That's the level you need to be close to in order to access that zone and create a feeling of progress. Redistribute minimum levels.
- Every pre-current-expansion zone scales up to current-expansion minimum level. For instance, if this was working right now, the entire game would scale up to level 100.
- Reset the minimum levels of past expansions so they become concurrent leveling paths. For instance, make both TBC and WotLK content available at level 60; Cata and MoP become available at level 70; WoD (and later Legion) available at level 80.

With that, you can finish storylines and go on to the next zone without fear of outleveling content. Plus, you can skip boring zones and go directly to those you have interest in.

About World Bosses: past World Bosses scale as well, but are reduced in power so they can be defeated by a small group (3+ people) or solo'ed by a good player. However, the more people tag them, the stronger they get. That way, we can still kill old World Bosses, but they won't die too quickly and other people can join in and help.

[Advent]

That is because the development team is very lazy and they don't want to maintain several concurrent storylines.
Maybe in one storyline we defeat the legion and Azeroth turns into Argus 2.0, in another we win the battle, etc.

Now, someone is going to say "But that requires too much effort.". This is a company that makes hundreds of millions of dollars from WoW each year...

Oh yeah, clearly it's laziness. >_>

Let's paint a picture. Say you created an MMO story that branched out in 5 ways. Now there are several other factors to consider: Does this branching effect cover dungeon and raid bosses? What happens when we add content updates, likely they now have to have several concurrent storylines going on at one time. Lastly, what happens if it DOES affect raid and dungeon bosses? What happens when people want to play together, are they separated based on story line? If so, what do you do with the people who have chosen the less popular story path and thus have fewer people running around in their world to play with? The tech would have to phase you to really "immerse" the player in the experience of an ever-changing world, so what do you do with the people who killed potential dungeon boss A that want to play with a friend who didn't kill potential dungeon boss A and now he has a totally different experience? Because that is the fundamental, core idea of branching story paths: Everyone Has A Different Experience.

What do you do? Is it even worth it to constantly have several concurrent story lines ongoing that you always have to pay off? Which story suffers? Which one gets the spotlight this patch? What happens when your players become angry that you couldn't offer them enough story per patch because your writers were bogged down by having 12 different stories to write all at once?

[vsb]

I think good way for WoW would be leveling to 10 level and now you can participate in any activity, even in current mythic raids. You can level more for additional stats (like you're leveling your artifact now) and something like 50 levels would award some not very important abilities, but the idea is, you can very quickly jump into end game. And, of course, you can quest on every world zone appropriately scaled. I guess, most of boring quests could be replaced with world quests and lore quests should be preserved.

[Kazlofski]

Oh yeah, clearly it's laziness. >_>

Let's paint a picture. Say you created an MMO story that branched out in 5 ways. Now there are several other factors to consider: Does this branching effect cover dungeon and raid bosses? What happens when we add content updates, likely they now have to have several concurrent storylines going on at one time. Lastly, what happens if it DOES affect raid and dungeon bosses? What happens when people want to play together, are they separated based on story line? If so, what do you do with the people who have chosen the less popular story path and thus have fewer people running around in their world to play with? The tech would have to phase you to really "immerse" the player in the experience of an ever-changing world, so what do you do with the people who killed potential dungeon boss A that want to play with a friend who didn't kill potential dungeon boss A and now he has a totally different experience? Because that is the fundamental, core idea of branching story paths: Everyone Has A Different Experience.

What do you do? Is it even worth it to constantly have several concurrent story lines ongoing that you always have to pay off? Which story suffers? Which one gets the spotlight this patch? What happens when your players become angry that you couldn't offer them enough story per patch because your writers were bogged down by having 12 different stories to write all at once?

Well said! I know people love to complain, we all do but they have to consider the other side and how it has to work... People don't get this.
They are always being selfish aka saying they are millionaires = they can do anything and everything!
Sadly no, I wish they could but their resources are limited too, they recruit very slowly, it's an entire process so they have limited resources to create content, a lot of thinking is going into what why and where on all aspects exactly as you described.

[haxartus]

What happens when your players become angry that you couldn't offer them enough story per patch because your writers were bogged down by having 12 different stories to write all at once?

You do offer them enough story per patch.
If the game has 5 million players, that's $60 million per month. This is enough to create a Legion sized expansion every 6 months. Of course, they aren't doing it, because there is no direct connection between how much money they are making and how much effort is put into the game. There should be, but there isn't.

[Deleted]

If they make levelling more inconvenient, they will make it more inconvenient, period. People will invest more into circumventing the inconvenient un-content.
If they make content normally used for levelling interesting and rewarding at every stage of character development though...

[ls-]

You do offer them enough story per patch.
If the game has 5 million players, that's $60 million per month. This is enough to create a Legion sized expansion every 6 months. Of course, they aren't doing it, because there is no direct connection between how much money they are making and how much effort is put into the game. There should be, but there isn't.

You severely underestimate costs of production, mere texture rehash may cost up to $2K/set.

[haxartus]

You severely underestimate costs of production, mere texture rehash may cost up to $2K/each.

And you overestimate how much original content there is in the game.
Do you think "collect 10 bear asses" is original content ? The game doesn't actually have +5000 quests, it has 10 quests and they just change the text of the quest to make players think it's a new quest. "Collect 10 bear asses" and "collect 10 void lord souls" is the same quest.

[ls-]

And you overestimate how much original content there is in the game.
Do you think "collect 10 bear asses" is original content ? The game doesn't actually have +5000 quests, it has 10 quests and they just change the text of the quest to make players think it's a new quest. "Collect 10 bear asses" and "collect 10 void lord souls" is the same quest.

No, I understand how much content there's in the game and approx how much does it cost to produce and how long it takes. There's also localisation process, even fixing typos in text is expensive af.

But usually time is more of a problem than money. Expansion like Legion takes up to 3-4 years to produce, no reasonable amount of money can speed up the process.

And lastly, no one sane would reinvest all earnings back into project. It'd be a huge loss.

[Schmilblick]

It's now like a MOBA, connect, tag DJ / Raid, disconnect, quick and fast paced game with even less stress on the servers.