Stormblood MSQ Discussion (THERE ARE SPOILERS IN HERE)

[Kazgrel]

I may very well be wrong about it, yeah, just a guess based on this train of thought: Elidibus wants emperor to trust him, and who would an emperor trust more than himself? Elidibus shows his face, emperor goes "you dare impersonate me?"

..I mean, it sounds kind of silly, I guess. We'll see in time what that scene was really all about

It's actually been a moderately fun guessing game.

My personal guess is that he assumes the identity of Zenos in an effort to basically mindfuck the Scions and WoL, would would all be thinking "Uh...didn't we just see this guy cut himself down?" But for us players behind the keyboards that have paid attention to the story, that would be a serious eye roll moment, since we would all have a very good idea of what's going on...unless the writers do a colossal job of pulling the rug out from underneath us somehow.

[Resiak]

See the fact that you went into that much detail does give a little credence to the case though. His hunt is the act of venomizing the populace to breed conflict. Conflict then breeds power, and that power swells up. Once it swells up enough for Zenos to care he wants to experience their rage firsthand. I liked that he pushes the boundaries of Garlean Law. That he does his own things regardless of the consequences. I admire his pursuit of an ever more powerful opponent.

I empathized a lot with Zenos. It's a lot like what I do with you guys here. I discuss something controversial to try and elevate peoples critical thinking. The harder you think, the more detailed your approach, the better discussions we have. I help breed better discussions that engage me. Every now and then I run into a <snip>person<snip> who has no critical thinking skills and can only parrot fanboyisms or when he says something actually objective, it usually is outright misinformation that is easily proven wrong. In this case <snip> that person<snip> is like the resistance. They're not worth my time because they'll never be better than they are. People like @Faroth, @Granyala, @StrawberryZebra, @Katchii, @Kazela, etc. are like my Warrior's of Light. They often don't agree with me, but they're capable of standing on their own 2 feet and discussing complicated topics without succumbing to mortal failings.


Moderation edit:
I've removed the mention as it's over the line. That's unnecessary and is a direct attack specifically towards another user. This sub forum is really admirable in being respectful, even when heated, so I'm just making this note a warning for everyone. Such attacks can and will incur infractions in the future.

Zenos is an interesting villain because he can be taken at many different levels. Some people will only see the raging anime villain, and those will probably call him shallow. And thats ok, i get that not everyone might look into it and think he's a weak villain. Then there's us long time FF fans that see a strong link between him and Kefka. This was a big draw for me personally. And some people will really look deeper into his reasoning like you did. I liked the fact he wasn't just an empire puppet. He had his own agenda. He was probably pushed his entire life to buy into his father and grand fathers ideology. He never had a chance to be his person, and he's lashing out against his upraising in the most extreme way. I enjoyed it, and i'm looking forward to seeing how the patch content builds on these stories.

[tikcol]

Zenos is the Deathwing of FFXIV GUYSSS

[Wrecktangle]

Zenos is an interesting villain because he can be taken at many different levels. Some people will only see the raging anime villain, and those will probably call him shallow. And thats ok, i get that not everyone might look into it and think he's a weak villain. Then there's us long time FF fans that see a strong link between him and Kefka. This was a big draw for me personally. And some people will really look deeper into his reasoning like you did. I liked the fact he wasn't just an empire puppet. He had his own agenda. He was probably pushed his entire life to buy into his father and grand fathers ideology. He never had a chance to be his person, and he's lashing out against his upraising in the most extreme way. I enjoyed it, and i'm looking forward to seeing how the patch content builds on these stories.

Agreed. I would have thrown you a mention too, but I couldn't remember the numbers off the top of my head lol and was too lazy to look.

[Eleccybubb]

Zenos is the Deathwing of FFXIV GUYSSS

But Zenos is actually a good villain.

[TheCount]

What would be the likelihood of Fordola and Yostuyu interacting with each other?
They are both proud Imperials of subjugated lands that had their homes reclaimed by native forces with the WoL help.

[Resiak]

Agreed. I would have thrown you a mention too, but I couldn't remember the numbers off the top of my head lol and was too lazy to look.

No sweat. I just like hearing everyones takes on the villains, I think they did a good job of giving us some villains that are a bit more human, and flawed. It's never going to hit with everyone, but I see a lot love for sb's story overall across the internet.

And the numbers are gone now, less annoyances lol.

[Florena]

But Zenos is actually a good villain.

Eh to each their own, I didn't find him engaging. He had a cool boss fight sure, good voice acting. But as a CHARACTER Fordola was the only one of the three that interested me this time around. Maybe if the msq explored why he is the way he is he could have been interesting but there just wasn't anything for me to latch onto, and his 'farewell my only friend' line right before sliting his throat was too little too late for me. I'm not saying he needed to be Gaius 2.0 or anything but I have no interest in the 'I live only to fight strong guys comically evil blood knight' archetypes.

Just my opinion, not saying everyone else has to dislike the character too.

- - - Updated - - -

Zenos is an interesting villain because he can be taken at many different levels. Some people will only see the raging anime villain, and those will probably call him shallow. And thats ok, i get that not everyone might look into it and think he's a weak villain. Then there's us long time FF fans that see a strong link between him and Kefka. This was a big draw for me personally. And some people will really look deeper into his reasoning like you did. I liked the fact he wasn't just an empire puppet. He had his own agenda. He was probably pushed his entire life to buy into his father and grand fathers ideology. He never had a chance to be his person, and he's lashing out against his upraising in the most extreme way. I enjoyed it, and i'm looking forward to seeing how the patch content builds on these stories.

For me he wasn't really Kefka though. Yes he was empowered by an experiment. But kefka was entertaining in his insanity where Zenos just felt cliche and boring in his quest to fight strong guys. Kefka was driven mad by the experiments, it suggests here Zenos was always a sociopath and was that way before the experiments, and was the only one supporting the mad scientist. He had his own agenda but that agenda was boring. That agenda was just 'deliberately don't do my job putting down this rebellion so people will hate me and get stronger and I can fight them.' To me that falls flat compared to Kefka giving the planet a facelift.

- - - Updated - - -

Zenos is the Deathwing of FFXIV GUYSSS

Not a bad comparison but I will admit that, while I didn't find Zenos engaging he did have a bit more going on for him that Cataclysm Deathwing.

[tikcol]

Not a bad comparison but I will admit that, while I didn't find Zenos engaging he did have a bit more going on for him that Cataclysm Deathwing.

Yea exactly, they're very similar but if I had to choose I would choose Zenos everytime.

I even forgot that zenos "transforms" into a giant dragon before I made the comparison

[Florena]

Yea exactly, they're very similar but if I had to choose I would choose Zenos everytime.

I even forgot that zenos "transforms" into a giant dragon before I made the comparison

Yeah. I was a bit disapointed by them both in similar ways. In the novels Deathwing was a mastermind schemer, we didn't see any of that. Zenos was also supposed to be some sort of brutal military genious who loved fighting on the front lines. But all we see of that is him participating in the attack on rahlgr's reach before getting bored. Beyond that he's only fighting when we come to him.

[Resiak]

Eh to each their own, I didn't find him engaging. He had a cool boss fight sure, good voice acting. But as a CHARACTER Fordola was the only one of the three that interested me this time around. Maybe if the msq explored why he is the way he is he could have been interesting but there just wasn't anything for me to latch onto, and his 'farewell my only friend' line right before sliting his throat was too little too late for me. I'm not saying he needed to be Gaius 2.0 or anything but I have no interest in the 'I live only to fight strong guys comically evil blood knight' archetypes.

Just my opinion, not saying everyone else has to dislike the character too.

- - - Updated - - -



For me he wasn't really Kefka though. Yes he was empowered by an experiment. But kefka was entertaining in his insanity where Zenos just felt cliche and boring in his quest to fight strong guys. Kefka was driven mad by the experiments, it suggests here Zenos was always a sociopath and was that way before the experiments, and was the only one supporting the mad scientist. He had his own agenda but that agenda was boring. That agenda was just 'deliberately don't do my job putting down this rebellion so people will hate me and get stronger and I can fight them.' To me that falls flat compared to Kefka giving the planet a facelift.

- - - Updated - - -



Not a bad comparison but I will admit that, while I didn't find Zenos engaging he did have a bit more going on for him that Cataclysm Deathwing.

Like I said, he won't resonate with everyone. I don't really see as him just not doing his job. I see it more as, he doesn't believe in what his father and grandfather where preaching. He probably spent his entire childhood sheltered, learning, training, and being told to believe in the ideology. He has no emotion, no empathy, and is totally detached from the world, and is trying desperately to feel something.

I think the problem is, the game type doesn't lend itself to being able to flesh out all of these characters enough for everyone. People already complain about too much story in the game, so it's hard to go back and show all of their pasts and everything that led up to their current issues. Maybe they shouldn't have pushed so hard to clear up all of doma and gyr abania in the base expansion, and drew it out a little more to expand on these backstories. My imagination runs overtime, and I kind of fill in the backstory myself based on whats given.

For instance, you bring up Gaius, and i've seen other people mention Gaius in comparison to Zenos. I actually didn't really like him and his fellow judges....I mean Legatus. I'm not sure if it's people that played 1.0 and have more time with him, but I got nothing from him. To me, all of the Legatus just felt like empire shills, doing what the empire sent them to do. I have no backstory on them, no way to come up with reasons for doing what their doing except that it's the empire way. I enjoyed ARR, loved the story as a whole, but the roles of the Legatus could have been filled by anyone and it wouldn't have made a difference to me.

[Faroth]

For me he wasn't really Kefka though. Yes he was empowered by an experiment. But kefka was entertaining in his insanity where Zenos just felt cliche and boring in his quest to fight strong guys. Kefka was driven mad by the experiments, it suggests here Zenos was always a sociopath and was that way before the experiments, and was the only one supporting the mad scientist. He had his own agenda but that agenda was boring. That agenda was just 'deliberately don't do my job putting down this rebellion so people will hate me and get stronger and I can fight them.' To me that falls flat compared to Kefka giving the planet a facelift.

There are pretty well written and good presentations out there that boil down Kefka to pretty pathetic himself. One I recall essentially reduced him to a child that never got over the death of a pet and never grew beyond that.

When I first started reading it, I was like "this sounds like nonsense" and when I finished I was like "Well I'll be...it fits."

[Katchii]

I drew a comparison between Zenos and Darth Vader from Episode IV in my head this morning and it fit my opinion pretty well. Basically, we know NOW why Darth Vader is a well developed character as we've seen a lot more development of him though episodes 1-6, as well as the animated series and the books. However just looking at him in Episode IV he was just an imposing presence. You knew his name, what he looked like (the costume anyway), that he's powerful because he shows his power throughout the movie and that he is feared but we didn't really understand anything beyond that and the film simply establishes that he has a past but you don't really know what that is, and that he's interacted with other characters before. We hear a little about his past and his mind set during his encounter with Obi Wan at the end.

That's sort of what I feel about Zenos here, he's just a presence, we're told he has a past and we're shown he's powerful and feared and at the end we see a little bit more of his character.

If we look at JUST Episode IV, Darth Vader is an incredibly shallow character, which is how I feel about Zenos.

[Kazgrel]

I can see the parallels between Zenos and Kefka, but I still place Kefka ahead in terms of the "I really want to kick this guy's ass" factor. Both being magitek-ish experimentation test subjects. Both significant figures in an empire that seeks to basically rule the world. Heck, both even get what they want during the course of the story, although Kefka achieved that goal by the halfway point of the story, whereas Zenos gets what he wants at the end.

Kefka's overall goal was far more sinister than Zeno's ambitions. Zenos wanted a grand fight with what he considered an equal in combat...that damn clown simply wanted to kill everyone and everything.

That being said...who's to say we know all of what exactly Zenos wanted to achieve? I mean yeah, taking what we have seen at face value looks to complete the picture, but I would not be surprised one bit if we learn more of other possible ambitions he had throughout 4.1-4.3 (maybe all the way up to xpac 3).

[Florena]

I drew a comparison between Zenos and Darth Vader from Episode IV in my head this morning and it fit my opinion pretty well. Basically, we know NOW why Darth Vader is a well developed character as we've seen a lot more development of him though episodes 1-6, as well as the animated series and the books. However just looking at him in Episode IV he was just an imposing presence. You knew his name, what he looked like (the costume anyway), that he's powerful because he shows his power throughout the movie and that he is feared but we didn't really understand anything beyond that and the film simply establishes that he has a past but you don't really know what that is, and that he's interacted with other characters before. We hear a little about his past and his mind set during his encounter with Obi Wan at the end.

That's sort of what I feel about Zenos here, he's just a presence, we're told he has a past and we're shown he's powerful and feared and at the end we see a little bit more of his character.

If we look at JUST Episode IV, Darth Vader is an incredibly shallow character, which is how I feel about Zenos.

Difference is Zenos is dead now and even died happily having gotten what he wanted. He's not likely to get more screen time to flesh him out and even if he does...he's dead and doesn't have a role in the story now.

[Katchii]

Difference is Zenos is dead now and even died happily having gotten what he wanted. He's not likely to get more screen time to flesh him out and even if he does...he's dead and doesn't have a role in the story now.

That's kind of my point, we only have Episode IV Darth Vader (Zenos) since this is all that we've seen of him...nothing else and we will get nothing else ever, except maybe prequel type info in the future, but that doesn't change the fact that RIGHT NOW he is not a well developed character.

[Faroth]

*shrug*
Still feel like people are dismissing a lot of the cut scenes as if they didn't exist rather than they personally just want far far more. I'm fine with him, he was developed plenty for what was needed.

He's more akin to Thoridan in terms of presence, who was way more straightforward and bland to me. It's clear this expansion is going to be more heavily about something else over patch cycle.

Seriously, where WAS all this complaining during Heavensward? I never saw anyone gripe about Thoridan's straightforward goals and lack of any character development. O_o

[lawow74]

Seriously, where WAS all this complaining during Heavensward? I never saw anyone gripe about Thoridan's straightforward goals and lack of any character development. O_o

Thordan's goals and designs made more sense, he was supported by a much stronger story foundation. Zenos just feels too much 'because reasons' and 'loldragonfight'. I think he gets eclipsed by the much more intriguing notion of artificial Echo endowment, the real takeaway from the 4.0 MSQ besides 'yay Ala Mhigo and Doma are free'.

Though SE needs to stop ripping off Blizzard for their Big Bad helmets. First the Lich Pope, now the Bitch King.

[Faroth]

Thordan's goals and designs made more sense, he was supported by a much stronger story foundation. Zenos just feels too much 'because reasons' and 'loldragonfight'.

If you say so... Thoridan was nothing but "100 years of faith absorbed power, I'mma be a god now." There wasn't anything more to HIM. Everything interesting is tied around Shiva, Hraesvaelgr, and Nidhogg. Much like Stormblood has more shining characters apart from the first straightforward endboss.

Though SE needs to stop ripping off Blizzard for their Big Bad helmets. First the Lich Pope, now the Bitch King.

Even though XII came out after Warcraft III, I don't think the Judges were based on Arthas. The Garleans are designed based off them. Even though Zenos has a taller pointy helmet.

[RohanV]

I think Zenos was the "terrifying force of nature" archetype of villain, rather than someone who could be empathised with or reasoned with. Yotsuyu and Fordola are the more human villains, with Yotsuyu the deliberately evil one, and Fordola the one who made the wrong choice, but not entirely an unreasonable choice.

I thought Stormblood did a pretty good job providing a variety of villains.