NHS ranked 'number one' health system

[Teleros]

Okay, I have to ask... how expensive is insurance in US?

It's all kinds of messed up. Most states have their own internal markets with no competition across state borders. Insurance companies (under Obamacare) HAVE to insure everyone who asks, so they jack up the prices on the healthy in order to subsidise the unhealthy. They also have so-called deductibles, meaning the amount you have to shell out before the insurance company starts paying. Deductibles and insurance premiums have shot up ever since Obamacare came into play - in part because healthy people are choosing not to sign up in order to save money - if they have a problem, they can get insurance THEN, and in the mean time the fines are cheaper... this in turn means those who DO sign up have to pay more, of course.

That said... the fact that stuff comes under insurance means the prices are inflated compared to what they'd be if you were uninsured, or just walked in and asked to pay right there and then. Steven Crowder mentioned a back operation he had a few years ago (ie pre-Obamacare), with a cost on insurance of something like $11k... or maybe $2k if he just paid the hospital himself.

Oh, and in case all that wasn't enough, there's also government programs like Medicare and Medicaid, or the Office of Veteran Affairs. Not to mention a zillion exemptions under Obamacare, such as for Congressional staffers and trade unions, etc etc etc.

At this point, it'd be far easier to nuke the entire system and start over, but there are too many vested interests for that. Hell, the Republicans want to dump Obamacare, and yet they're finding it hard to just undo a law that's less than a decade old...

Living here in UK for 3 years. Had few cases of sudden allergic reactions during work

*Snip*

- Given doctor excuse for entire day

Whilst I'm glad you got treated quickly, that last point isn't generally a good thing :P .

Sure the US is bottom. Or does anyone really want to pretend capitalism is able to create a universal healthcare that actually helps everyone?

No it isnt. Capitalism fails when it is about social services.

Actually it needs a basic health insurance for everyone, controlled by the state.

Not really. The US hasn't been a good example of capitalist healthcare for decades, you realise. Medicare and Medicaid alone have been huge distortions in the market, plus the various individual state markets for health insurance rather than a single nationwide market.

A handful of links that might be worth perusing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/p...egin-with.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisco.../#56533d764910
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...58-3-workdays/
http://www.freenation.org/a/f12l3.html

Incidentally, take a look at Canada some time. It takes weeks to get a CT scan or MRI scan, but your *pet* will get seen almost immediately - and yet the latter will neither bankrupt you, nor did it require a vast government pet health bureaucracy.

Oh sure, healthcare technology has advanced enormously since the days of actual capitalist healthcare... but it's advanced in just about every other field too. Care to hazard a bet on how much a Skype call would cost you if it was a government monopoly? Or an email? How many miles per gallon do you think a government car would get you? Now, if everything is basically cheaper except the things with the most government interference... why shouldn't that also apply to healthcare?

[Deleted]

Not really. The US hasn't been a good example of capitalist healthcare for decades, you realise. Medicare and Medicaid alone have been huge distortions in the market, plus the various individual state markets for health insurance rather than a single nationwide market.

Well, i talked about state driven health care, as like in europe or in germany.

Ours works like a charm, and is state driven.

[JohnBrown1917]

I

Oh sure, healthcare technology has advanced enormously since the days of actual capitalist healthcare... but it's advanced in just about every other field too. Care to hazard a bet on how much a Skype call would cost you if it was a government monopoly? Or an email? How many miles per gallon do you think a government car would get you? Now, if everything is basically cheaper except the things with the most government interference... why shouldn't that also apply to healthcare?

The healthcare is the US already was far more expansive than other western countries before ACA.

[Kellhound]

And in countries with universal healthcare, its nobody.
But sure, continue to think fucking over people is okay because its a 'small minority'. Have fun with the new bill that'll increase that amount.


http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/11/the-n...rter-2017.html

11% without insurance? Thats hardly small.

I never said anything about a "small minority"nor did I claim I think people should be fucked over. You love to jump to conclusions. The only thing I will claim is I do not trust the US government to run national health care without fucking it up for everyone (see the VA).

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I hear it's pretty good unless you're a dying baby.

Yes, In America you can pay half a million dollars for an experimental treatment that still can't save your dying baby.

[JohnBrown1917]

I never said anything about a "small minority"nor did I claim I think people should be fucked over. You love to jump to conclusions. The only thing I will claim is I do not trust the US government to run national health care without fucking it up for everyone (see the VA).

This whole discussion was about the US system, try to be more clear that you're talking about... I have no idea.
You're the one saying this list was 'wrong'.

[Blur4stuff]

If you could choose to live under any healthcare system in the world you'd be insane to pick USA first. The NHS isn't the best either, but again you'd have to be crazy to choose USA over the NHS.

Unless you're wealthy. In that case the USA would be just great.

[Aeula]

Jesus, the rest of the world must be in the real shitter, huh?

[Kellhound]

This whole discussion was about the US system, try to be more clear that you're talking about... I have no idea.
You're the one saying this list was 'wrong'.

I have been clear, your are just jumping to conclusions. I never said the list was wrong, just that I have never had issues with health care in the US except for government run health care.

[Nihilist74]

This pole seems to show most of the British are satisfied with the NHS.
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publica...ction-nhs-2016
This article from the guardian claims the satisfaction numbers for the NHS are down 5%?
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ps-5-last-year
I can imagine in england they are having some economic trouble, the NHS service quality suffers like anything else.

[Draco-Onis]

Incidentally, take a look at Canada some time. It takes weeks to get a CT scan or MRI scan, but your *pet* will get seen almost immediately - and yet the latter will neither bankrupt you, nor did it require a vast government pet health bureaucracy.

I am not sure why you mentioned this, it is no different than here in the US. The only people who don't wait for CT or MRI scans are those with a lot of money, if I remember correctly we had to wait 3 weeks for my SO to get an MRI scan and there were hoops to jump through. It goes without saying that pets are not people and can't really sue you or have as many complications

[Teleros]

Well, i talked about state driven health care, as like in europe or in germany.

Ours works like a charm, and is state driven.

Good for you .

= + =

I am not sure why you mentioned this, it is no different than here in the US. The only people who don't wait for CT or MRI scans are those with a lot of money, if I remember correctly we had to wait 3 weeks for my SO to get an MRI scan and there were hoops to jump through. It goes without saying that pets are not people and can't really sue you or have as many complications

I mentioned this because I think it's interesting to note how a private sector business can go without the waiting lists and such of the government-controlled business, and without causing you to rack up huge bills in the process.

= + =

The healthcare is the US already was far more expansive than other western countries before ACA.

As I said though, the pre-Obamacare US healthcare market wasn't exactly a model of free market capitalism either. There was a huge amount of government intervention in the market beforehand, whether through Medicare or Medicaid, preventing competition across state borders, the FDA (which even if you approve of, is still slow and expensive as hell)... You need to go back a decades to find a US healthcare market that isn't dancing to the government's tune.

[Draco-Onis]

I mentioned this because I think it's interesting to note how a private sector business can go without the waiting lists and such of the government-controlled business, and without causing you to rack up huge bills in the process.


As I said though, the pre-Obamacare US healthcare market wasn't exactly a model of free market capitalism either. There was a huge amount of government intervention in the market beforehand, whether through Medicare or Medicaid, preventing competition across state borders, the FDA (which even if you approve of, is still slow and expensive as hell)... You need to go back a decades to find a US healthcare market that isn't dancing to the government's tune.

Unless you are on medicare or medicaid there's really no government involved. You can already buy insurance across state lines some places had it before the ACA but there is no point most doctors will not take that insurance and it doesn't save any money. All health care is delivered locally, in my state two insurance companies dominate the market if you don't have them you are very limited in terms of choices for doctors. The buying across state lines is pure bullshit and is just a campaign line.

There is no free market when it comes to healthcare, you get sick you go to your doctor. No one is going to be shopping for hospitals while they are having a stroke or heart attack nor do you do so when your doctor recommends you something. It should be pretty obvious why, it's your life on the line also the US healthcare industry does not advertise their prices because they know you have no choice. Free market capitalism doesn't work for healthcare it never has the US is proof of that, our healthcare history is a disaster before medicare and medicare it was even worse than this because of added elderly mortality rates. Medicare and medicaid are the only US healthcare programs that actually yield decent results without them I can't even imagine how much more worse our ranking would be.

But if you have money things are different you get to see all those things you imagine, there's a reason the US is ranked so badly in terms of healthcare. We have the best healthcare system money can buy which means the vast majority of the population never gets to experience it.

[Deleted]

Whilst I'm glad you got treated quickly, that last point isn't generally a good thing :P .

What's wrong with that?

[Teleros]

Unless you are on medicare or medicaid there's really no government involved.

Even the existence of those programs distorts the market though, and it's not like there's not a huge amount of behind-the-scenes stuff the government is involved in, from the FDA to regulations and such.

You can already buy insurance across state lines some places had it before the ACA but there is no point most doctors will not take that insurance and it doesn't save any money.

If you can buy across state lines but the doctors don't care for it then as a practical matter it may as well not exist.

All health care is delivered locally, in my state two insurance companies dominate the market if you don't have them you are very limited in terms of choices for doctors. The buying across state lines is pure bullshit and is just a campaign line.

The thing is, you wouldn't expect it to take effect immediately. Let's suppose that Trump nukes Obamacare and creates a nationwide heath insurance market, all in one fell swoop. Great - but don't expect to be able to walk into a NY hospital straight away and be covered by insurance bought in Montana. I'd expect it to take months, if not years, for the market to settle, and for everyone involved to get used to the new normal.

There is no free market when it comes to healthcare, you get sick you go to your doctor.

Ah, but how did you choose your doctor (presumably before you got sick)?

No one is going to be shopping for hospitals while they are having a stroke or heart attack

I should hope not. People usually have the sense to plan ahead, after all, which is why insurance for *anything* exists.

nor do you do so when your doctor recommends you something

Except when you do, such as when you want a second opinion :P .

the US healthcare industry does not advertise their prices because they know you have no choice

More realistically, they know you have health insurance that will pay for you. Roughly 15% of the US population was said to lack healthcare insurance prior to Obamacare - meaning the other 85% didn't have too much to worry about when it came to big bills.

Free market capitalism doesn't work for healthcare it never has the US is proof of that

A statement does not an argument make.

before medicare and medicare it was even worse than this because of added elderly mortality rates.

Depends on why they're dying. I mean, you've got to die from something. Are they dying because, basically, it was their time, or because some idiot nurse gave them an infection?

= + =

What's wrong with that?

Just me grumbling about work ethic is all :P .

[Deleted]

NHS is amazing and to define it with a blanket statement because you had a bad experience a few times is ignorant.

[Deleted]

Your talking about the baby who is dying of an incurable illness and the kids parents want to experiment on him. The law decided it wasn't in the kids best interest to be treated as a lab rat, not the doctors.

I don't think the parents who want their kids back are mad scientists. The bottom line is the doctors there held onto him and abused the law to do so.

My mum had rotator cuff repair surgery that came out to exactly 0 £. In the US, that same surgery will cost you 10'000 to 30'000 $ without insurance.

The alternative to "without insurance" in the UK would either be nothing at all or private costs which are just as high.

I am not sure why you mentioned this, it is no different than here in the US. The only people who don't wait for CT or MRI scans are those with a lot of money, if I remember correctly we had to wait 3 weeks for my SO to get an MRI scan and there were hoops to jump through. It goes without saying that pets are not people and can't really sue you or have as many complications

Peoples pets got it faster and better whether it's for the reason you gave is anyone's guess.

[Draco-Onis]

Even the existence of those programs distorts the market though, and it's not like there's not a huge amount of behind-the-scenes stuff the government is involved in, from the FDA to regulations and such.

If by distortion you mean like putting out drugs that kill even more people then yea

The thing is, you wouldn't expect it to take effect immediately. Let's suppose that Trump nukes Obamacare and creates a nationwide heath insurance market, all in one fell swoop. Great - but don't expect to be able to walk into a NY hospital straight away and be covered by insurance bought in Montana. I'd expect it to take months, if not years, for the market to settle, and for everyone involved to get used to the new normal.

I think you didn't read what I wrote, it already exist and has for years now it doesn't work it is just a campaign line. Also insurance companies exists across state lines under different subsidiaries and names they have no reason to compete with themselves.

Ah, but how did you choose your doctor (presumably before you got sick)?

Your insurance company gives you a list of doctors you can go to. When you deal with smaller insurance companies that list is usually a lie when you call the doctors they tell you they don't accept that insurance it is a huge problem.

Except when you do, such as when you want a second opinion :P .

Which you get from that list your insurance company gives you.

More realistically, they know you have health insurance that will pay for you. Roughly 15% of the US population was said to lack healthcare insurance prior to Obamacare - meaning the other 85% didn't have too much to worry about when it came to big bills.

False that statistics does not count for people who are under insured, also there were plans which gave you the bare minimums and screwed you once you got sick. Before Obamacare insurance companies could drop you after the fact you were sick which lead to tons of medical bankruptcies. If an insurance company thought your cancer was getting too expensive they can just stop paying and there was nothing you could do about it.

Depends on why they're dying. I mean, you've got to die from something. Are they dying because, basically, it was their time, or because some idiot nurse gave them an infection?

They were dying from lack of healthcare because insurance companies would not cover you once you reach a certain age or the price would be so high you couldn't afford it. It was also pretty bad for young children born with genetic defects or diseases because that counts a a pre- existing condition. You don't seem to understand how bad this is acne is considered a pre-existing condition they can drop you any time for literally any reason.

[AeneasBK]

Ok you are not british, don't fucking speak for brits. EVER!!!

You're a complete asshole so I think most Brits would prefer you don't speak for them either...

- - - Updated - - -

Don't get me wrong, if I had to rely on the public system I would be fucked, big time. But at least here I have the option to pay for an insurance.

The NHS *is* the public system. You think there isn't better healthcare in the UK for the people who want to pay for it?

[Deleted]

private is more or less run by them too so getting a truly independent opinion even if you pay isn't easy.