The anti link your achievement rant

[clevin]

I do but most people ask why do I turn people down or kick them when they have the achievement, and I feel like I am dealing with asinine people all the time

OK, so how do you assess people then? I dislike the achievement/ item level thing too but aside from spending a lot of time looking at the armory, I can't think of a faster way to assess someone unknown to you.

Here's a thought - use Open Raid and build a PUG where at least a core group wants to raid week in and week out. Wont work if you want to PUG when you feel like it but having a core of ~15 people lets some people decide not to raid sometimes. But if you want a random pug that assembles on demand... what else do you use to judge people?

[Liarparadox]

Half of the people didn't read his post at all...

Hehe yep. It's so obvious some people either didn't read his post or don't understand it. Not even suggesting people need to agree; but they don't even know what it is they are disagreeing with in the first place! Ah the internet!

- - - Updated - - -

OK, so how do you assess people then?

Well it could be any number of things, gear will play a role, but raid comp most definitely will as well. Even the rolls in a tier might be an issue. Not hard to see why an achieve player might be rejected. They still bitchfest about it. That's what the guy is saying.

[clevin]

H
Well it could be any number of things, gear will play a role, but raid comp most definitely will as well. Even the rolls in a tier might be an issue. Not hard to see why an achieve player might be rejected. They still bitchfest about it. That's what the guy is saying.

Sure, but once you get comp roughly down then you have to have a raid that will succeed and it's more likely that a player who's done it before will know the mechanics that someone who hasn't. My point isn't that achievement is all that but you don't want to fuck around for a long time playing 'create the perfect PUG', you want to go in, kill shit, get loot.

[Jastall]

But trial and error sounds horrible for pugs nowadays, I wouldn't want to wipe 3 times on an easy boss just so I can give a random who I've never met and likely will never meet again a chance. If pug leaders were to do that then all the good people in the group would just leave to find a different group.

As for the link X achieve, whenever I lead pugs its always a requirement. It shows they have at least done the fights before even if its on a different character, I wouldn't want to be teaching people the fights in pugs and as every1 knows when you're more experinced with the timings/abilities in a fight you have a lot better performance.

There are only so many pulls I want to sink into ''learning'' bosses that I already killed several times, especially ones like Maiden with simple mechanics. I can understand more difficult ones like H Mistress/Avatar taking several pulls, that's no problem to me. But smashing my head against a boss because half the raid is composed of people who don't know what a mechanic is and do sub 700k DPS on Heroic isn't my idea of fun.

End of the day, there is no magical way to know who's going to be bad and who's going to be good in a pug. Achievements weed out most of the chaff, even if not all.

[BiggestNoob]

I have it and I'm one of the better players, so I think it does.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I am beyond sick and tired of people linking me their achievement for KJ. To me, it is not a reliable way, nor source to actually invite people into an actual (semi decent) Pug in which I make usually. But, of course, a lot of people debate with me trying to say that it is reliable beyond a shadow of doubt. Or better yet they call me a furry since I am on Moon guard USA.

What do you all think I do not want to give a continously drabble and bore anyone who reads this

That's the beauty of group finder. Your group, your rules. Run it however you want. You can make yourself appear offline if you don't like whispers. Otherwise, getting whispers is just part of being group leader. You could also get a friend to serve as group leader if it annoys you.

[Liarparadox]

Sure, but once you get comp roughly down then you have to have a raid that will succeed and it's more likely that a player who's done it before will know the mechanics that someone who hasn't. My point isn't that achievement is all that but you don't want to fuck around for a long time playing 'create the perfect PUG', you want to go in, kill shit, get loot.

No, you asked for other criteria that is quick; and I identified some quick criteria. I don't think anyone would disagree with the point that achieve is SOMETHING, and something quick; and once other criteria is fulfilled this is worth considering. Obviously that's not the OP's point. Again, you asked for other criteria that was quick (I just assumed you might have read the OP). And i gave you some. I supposed i don't know the point of your reply. OP is perfectly reasonable in rejecting achieve players and their bitching is irrelevant/pointless/unwarranted/even laughable because there are other quick criteria in play.

[clevin]

No, you asked for other criteria that is quick; and I identified some quick criteria. I don't think anyone would disagree with the point that achieve is SOMETHING, and something quick; and once other criteria is fulfilled this is worth considering. Obviously that's not the OP's point. Again, you asked for other criteria that was quick (I just assumed you might have read the OP). And i gave you some. I supposed i don't know the point of your reply. OP is perfectly reasonable in rejecting achieve players and their bitching is irrelevant/pointless/unwarranted/even laughable because there are other quick criteria in play.

My initial reply wasn't to you. I don't particularly care what you would use - my point was *to the OP* that people putting together a PUG need some way to judge whether someone will help make your Pug successful or not and that achieve is a fine way to do it.

My point *to you* is that past getting raid comp into a decent place, you didn't actually answer the question. You didn't give any criteria aside from comp and perhaps tier rolls but that doesn't actually tell you jack about whether someone is a good raider or not.

The point of most PUGs is to kill shit and tier rolls don't help you tell whether a player will make that more likely or less.

[taliey]

It's the equivalent of the gearscore/ilvl controversy in WOTLK.

[-Annomander-]

My biggest gripe about it is when the normal mode achievement is considered "insufficient" (aka, you need "CURVE XYZ") but you play a tank like I do.

What's the difference between normal and heroic KJ for a tank?

Oh yeah, nothing.

There are exactly 0 mechanical changes between the heroic and normal mode of the fight for a tank.

But hey, I'm sure those DHs and bears with curve are waaay easier to heal during Fel Claws than a protection warrior...

[Deleted]

I got kicked from NH Heroic because I was 919 equipped, 929 in bags. The RL discovered it on Elisande (!), he had a 920+ requirement. I was the top DPS on all bosses until that point. I did not type a single word in chat and never AFK on trash.

*shrug*. Random groups suck steamy sweaty balls.

[Deleted]

I got kicked from NH Heroic because I was 919 equipped, 929 in bags. The RL discovered it on Elisande (!), he had a 920+ requirement. I was the top DPS on all bosses until that point. I did not type a single word in chat and never AFK on trash.

*shrug*. Random groups suck steamy sweaty balls.

yeah, that sounds legit... Those PuG leaders just always kick the well-behaved well-playing people for no reason, because it would be just too easy otherwise...

It's funny that everyone takes these declines personally when applying for a PuG. I always think "Who cares? Next group", as there can be literally 1,000 reasons for the decline. Already too many locks, more and better ilvl people queuing as well, doesn't like my char name, etc.

[Deleted]

yeah, that sounds legit... Those PuG leaders just always kick the well-behaved well-playing people for no reason, because it would be just too easy otherwise...

It did happen just like that. You're welcome not to believe it, but that's not something that matters in this case. The RL was German, just like you, so that should explain it to the others on this forum.
This was the guy, feel free to contact him: https://www.wowprogress.com/characte...khand/El%C3%B3

[Barnantinos]

Look I played vanilla, started raiding in bc, and started raid leading around Mists. I barely ever used achievement during my time raiding because it makes everyone lose. I give people a pull or two to see if they understand the encounter. If they don't I kick them

[Cheze]

tbh most RLs that ask for these kinds of things are full of it anyway; apply and have a decently appropriate ilvl and most of the time you will get invited

880 applying to normal tomb, as I saw earlier today? yanno, maybe not

[Naiyano]

If i have like ilvl 925 and the KJ HC AV i will demand something similar for my HC groups. If i'm on an alt and do the raid for the first time, i will demand ilvl 900 (because everyone can get this in one or two days after getting to 110) and don't care about the AV in NM. Easy

[Deleted]

I have the solution to all your problems:

Don't do PuGs

[Soxoffender]

Look I played vanilla, started raiding in bc, and started raid leading around Mists. I barely ever used achievement during my time raiding because it makes everyone lose. I give people a pull or two to see if they understand the encounter. If they don't I kick them

Out of interest, how do you determine if they ought to get invited in the first place? I know that someone may have spent most of a raid dead on the floor and still get an achievement but it still feels like it's a better indicator that you know what to do than most other measures.

[AzazeltheRuthless]

Out of interest, how do you determine if they ought to get invited in the first place? I know that someone may have spent most of a raid dead on the floor and still get an achievement but it still feels like it's a better indicator that you know what to do than most other measures.

Honestly they weed themselves out. I mostly go item level when I form a group and don't go for ridiculousness like a lot. People asking for 925 for H kJ whatever, lol. You have a couple joke bosses at the beginning to weed out the bads. Give everyone a fair shake, but you just kick them if they are underperforming. You either kick then or your top dps will just bail.

[Liarparadox]

My initial reply wasn't to you. I don't particularly care what you would use - my point was *to the OP* that people putting together a PUG need some way to judge whether someone will help make your Pug successful or not and that achieve is a fine way to do it.

My point *to you* is that past getting raid comp into a decent place, you didn't actually answer the question. You didn't give any criteria aside from comp and perhaps tier rolls but that doesn't actually tell you jack about whether someone is a good raider or not.

The point of most PUGs is to kill shit and tier rolls don't help you tell whether a player will make that more likely or less.

Obviously your reply was to the OP; I didn't even write anything before responding to you. And of course I answered your question to the OP. You asked what other criteria there were (of the OP). And instead of letting the OP answer, I gave you some. Not that it really matters because he can use ANY criteria he wants. He's the RL. By all means use the achieve when you start your groups. But the achieve isn't reliable, which is what his point was. I swear you're one of these people who either don't understand the OP or you have some compulsiveness to respond just to disagree, all while moving the goalpost. Lots of criteria, lots of reasons to reject people with the achieve. No one is saying the achieve is completely irrelevant. This isn't even controversial.