I think the next big MMORPG needs to have an AI living world

[zezel81]

AI could do it every outcome is different on each realm.
Example PvP/PvN as killing someone or npc around a city with no witnesses. The AI for the realm will generate a quest to find said players with clues. Then end result bounty/wanted posters around area or where ever a player would like to put them giving another quest.

Example PvE the realm starts with a 1000 dragons 500 male/500 female. Max amount of dragons is 2k and players decide to kill some due to adventure or gold it will have to take time reproduce or you can wipe them out. If dragons are something major as giving the realm magic and you wipe them all out AI will create effects for that realm. Then give quest for new power source or ways to bring back the dragons.

PVE destroying a city npc will try to rebuild other cities. So fourth.

You could make a realm for about 50 players to start and each realm could hold thousands. Then be able to travel you have figure it out. Realms are worlds each one starts the same. Now by the time you travel to another one it could be very different as humanity is wiped out, no magic just mechanics, over ran with demons, undead, dragons, over populated, and so forth. Then add in stuff as you go.

[SirCowdog]

I think the next big mmorpg needs to have a living AI world that grows and changes an artificially creates its own lore and history depending on the interactions taken by players.

Pretty sure this is what EQ:Next was supposed to do. Each server would eventually have ended up with completely different settings, based entirely on how the players interacted with the game world. And we all know how well EQ:Next is doing right now.... :/


The theory sounds cool, but the practical application would be kind of weird. I think @MoanaLisa has it right when she said everyone would just go to the "best" server.

[TriHard]

I wouldn't hold my breath.

There's bound to be another flagship mmo in the future but likely not until 2020+

[pfbe]

Lay off the litrpg for a bit and think about what people look for in a game. Unpredictability is not a wonder ingredient a game can never have too much of - on the contrary, a game players feel is too outside their control or understanding will only drive them away

[Darthfartz]

I think the next big mmorpg needs to have a living AI world that grows and changes an artificially creates its own lore and history depending on the interactions taken by players.

no.. just no

[Deavane]

The biggest difference though, is that it could take a causal player months to hit max level with a single character and now it may take a few weeks at most. The 5 man content was also a bit more meaningful and you could find people to play at your level and not just these 915+ ilvl requirements. People don't even really do low mythic + now besides to level the key up quickly. So, they've had to adjust and create more content for causal players.

The other difference is that there is just vastly more competition, not only in the same genre but video games in general, than 10 years ago. I wasn't saying the game would be dead, I'm saying there would be significantly less players if it weren't for LFR and some of the other changes made.

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He said exactly that. It's not a single player game. sooo...

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I don't see why you can't still do that. Have you actually tried? I've had a ton of people offer to add me on their friends list after a successful pug.

No. When he said "making MMOs single player was a bad idea" he meant the vast majority of content in the game. Outside of progression raiding (which for me is Mythic, for others it may normal or heroic), there's no real reliance on others to do things in the game. The game has advanced to a point where getting to know others and forming groups for the vast majority of content isn't required. For some people, this is a good thing. For others, it's a sad reality because earlier expansions encouraged more social game play.

While there are a few activities that require group play, WoW today is nothing like it once was.

[corebit]

No. When he said "making MMOs single player was a bad idea" he meant the vast majority of content in the game. Outside of progression raiding (which for me is Mythic, for others it may normal or heroic), there's no real reliance on others to do things in the game. The game has advanced to a point where getting to know others and forming groups for the vast majority of content isn't required. For some people, this is a good thing. For others, it's a sad reality because earlier expansions encouraged more social game play.

While there are a few activities that require group play, WoW today is nothing like it once was.

That's because WoW had to evolve to get with the changing times. The playerbase no longer has the time nor patience to sit around waiting to group up to do anything of substance.

So blame the playerbase for that not the designers.

[DeuZWw]

WoW killed the MMO Genre because every new MMO just try to do what WoW does.


Wow has little to no interaction with the whole World it created. And that was the purpose of an MMO.

Remember Ultima Online? Get the system form Ultima online and put it into a 3D Third-Person MMO right now. it would be perfect.


Houses player made, that could be robbed by other players.

You could kill other players, and will be a criminal and would be killed on sight by guards and other players too.

Died? Your corpse can be looted, and if you don't get back to your corpse you will lose everything you have on you, meaning that would value Craftable stuff even more, because you would be needing to replace stuff.

Talkin about crafting, you would be need to craft stuff, level your craftsmith skills and at the same time you will need to be a good warrior/mage/watever to survive the places where bosses and monsters lives to gather the best resources to craft that awesome sword.

Monsters everywhere that doesn't always stop at certain point and run back. Like you can literally run to your City walls for safety, but this Dragon will keep on your tail and will Kill you, the guards and anyone else until stopped.

Also, no Instanced contentat all. back in the day the Top Guildies from games like UO and Tibia, and some other games just gathered their best players and did Matches that played like battlegrounds and stuff like that. Guildes on WoW are a bad Joke, even Ragnarok did better with their "Castle-dominance-thing-that-i-dont-recall".

The reason PUBG is so popular right now, is because it pretty much does alot of this thing above, it feels more like a real Open World MMORPG than any MMORPG on the market.

i love WoW, i love Warcraft lore. the game itself is awesome, but it ruined everything else on the market because people just feel the need of doing something like WoW for a MMO.

Look at Tibia, a shitty MMO thats a huge success because its the only game that doesnt have a single instanced content, it give its players the freedom of killing eachother, and monsters are just out there in the open world waiting to be killed and giving some cool drops. Usually inside a open dungeon with so many layers that if you can survive it to the bottom you are already a hero.

Anyway, i would also put a Level limit like 20 or something, so no one would ever be too strong, and a single level 20 player could be defeated by a bunch of 10level players or lower, or a very skilled lowlevel player versus a maxlevel player could win a fight.

oh well, thats the dream. but never gonna happen. Theres no Game company out there that wants to put their Money into something they are not sure of success. Instead they will just CopyPasta WoW and get their guaranteed money from gamers who think that will be the new WoWkILLER.

[Coffeh]

What are you talking about? What other content has ever existed outside raiding that you had to form a group to do?

Someone never played Vanilla.

[Sansnom]

I think they just need to make a challenging game with linear progression again rather then a everyone sees everything.

Making mmos single player games was a mistake.

Partially agree. They need to consider making different content for different type of players. Not everyone plays the game for the challenge. Unfortunately, at the moment, they want all their content to be accessible. From a basic cost point of view, this is an understandable direction.

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WoW killed the MMO Genre because every new MMO just try to do what WoW does.


Wow has little to no interaction with the whole World it created. And that was the purpose of an MMO.

Remember Ultima Online? Get the system form Ultima online and put it into a 3D Third-Person MMO right now. it would be perfect.

Ultima Online was an entirely different game to WoW.

Houses player made, that could be robbed by other players.

You could kill other players, and will be a criminal and would be killed on sight by guards and other players too.

Died? Your corpse can be looted, and if you don't get back to your corpse you will lose everything you have on you, meaning that would value Craftable stuff even more, because you would be needing to replace stuff.

And there is a reason why hardly any games does that anymore. And there is a reason why WoW is as successful as it is today.

The Division tried it with their DZ and free for all PvP. While I think Ubisoft was brave to do this and in the context of the game, it did make sense to have that. The problem was that not a lot people like to be robbed.

oh well, thats the dream. but never gonna happen. Theres no Game company out there that wants to put their Money into something they are not sure of success. Instead they will just CopyPasta WoW and get their guaranteed money from gamers who think that will be the new WoWkILLER.

There is a reason why games that does not do this. Or at least not the majority. It is because it is not a popular feature. Just as people do not like to be robbed or burgled in real life, they do not like it in game either. If a player spend a year building up their house only to lose it overnight because some other player broke in, they probably would not return to the game.

[Deleted]

I think they just need to make a challenging game with linear progression again rather then a everyone sees everything.

Making mmos single player games was a mistake.

Really? Since begining, about 10-15% players raid, everybody else going solo.
Would you make such a decision to loose 85-90% of customers?

[DeuZWw]

Ultima Online was an entirely different game to WoW.

I Totally agree. thats exactly my point. After WoW people just "You know what? Fuck everything, i will just follow the WoW-Scheme to make this new MMORPG".
Again, i love WoW, been playing it for 10 years or so, but it did changed MMORPG forever to a point that you either play WoW or something thats just too similar to WoW.

And there is a reason why hardly any games does that anymore. And there is a reason why WoW is as successful as it is today.

Yes, like i said. i agree. WoW is a great game, and it works well. My complain is merely at how every other company felt the Need of using the WoW-Formula.
WoW Killed the MMorpg Genre by making everyone else just do a new WoWinSpace, or WoWinAnotherFantasyLand. Some with some new features, or some better graphics, but in the end they don't take any risks by trying to get away from the same setup.

And everybody liked UO. like you said yourself its a different game. If you go and logout from WoW now and want to play another MMO you will end up loggin back to WoW because they are pretty much the same.

The Division tried it with their DZ and free for all PvP. While I think Ubisoft was brave to do this and in the context of the game, it did make sense to have that. The problem was that not a lot people like to be robbed.

Yeah, but to be fair MMORPGs in general that aren't Fantasy based is hardly a success. Most FPS players rather play BF/COD or even Overwatch than playing it in a MMORPG. There are alot of points for TheDivision failure, the FFA PVP wasn't/isn't really the problem with the game.

Nobody likes to be Robbed, of course. But that wouldn't make it a Bad game. You would be safe in your City with your House/storage/watever. But when you are out in the road, anything can happen, you must be aware of the dangers and be prepared for it. You wouldn't want to go Alone out there. it's an MMO, it makes little sense doing all the content alone.

There is a reason why games that does not do this. Or at least not the majority. It is because it is not a popular feature. Just as people do not like to be robbed or burgled in real life, they do not like it in game either. If a player spend a year building up their house only to lose it overnight because some other player broke in, they probably would not return to the game.

But then again, how can you say its not a popular feature, if theres no product with the feature? It really depends on how u wanna play the game. like i said, some people like it hard, thats why PUBG is popular now. what i suggest is basically a Survival MMORPG to a certain degree.

You can get robbed, but imagine if you spend a year building up your house, with your awesome stuff you gathered around the world, there would be safety measures. Protection to your house and stuff like that. i can see why it would be hard to balance in the game, but there are workarounds to that.

IF i remember correctly, on some shards back in UO you could build your house in anywhere it would fit in. So you could for example put it in a strategic location for defense, set up some guards, protective spells, turrets and traps.
You got that awesome thing you like? you better work hard to protect it.
You want that awesome thing that someone have? you better work very hard to pass his defenses and try to rob him.
Not to say putting bonties for whoever robbed you, meaning cities could go and arrest the one and retrieving your stuff back if he ever gets caught.

But basically, i would think that it wouldn't be a problem as long as Robbery gets balanced to not be the optimal way of gettin gear and stuff in general.

i mean, i'm obviously not a Gamer Designer myself, but i could come up with some stuff if given time. so i'm pretty surprised to see that alot of these companies out there with big teams and Good Game Designers can't make one MMORPG thats not WoW-Formula with extra-features.

Hope i did make sense, ended up typing alot and these quotes makes me confused lol!

[Lorgar Aurelian]

stop watching crappy anime and you wont have such crappy expectations.

[Deleted]

I think the next big MMO (if MMOs are even a thing nowadays) needs to be the complete opposite of the WoW model or f2p asian grind craps.

Make an MMO with a real living world, not just a quest hub (WoW and 99% MMOs are basically giant quest hubs). Don't just put mobs there for the sake of being farmed, add some life and AI to them so that they can take actions by themselves (for example have bandits actually move from one place to another and have them create more camps if you don't attack them for a while). WoW is just landscape with mobs and static NPCs on it. Its really bad for immersion.

I think the issue with MMOs is that they almost always are designed to make you feel like you are the terminator. Thats ALL you do, you just kill because they ask you to, you kill because its easy design, you kill because mobs pose no threat and have no AI. How about an MMO where the open world is actually a threat and you need to be careful when exploring and questing? Not just elites here and there, but actually being in danger whenever you and other players leave the safe areas of cities/camps.

This feeling of danger is non existent in WoW, GW2, Tera, Rift. They make the character player so overpowered they focus all the game on raids just to have a challenge somewhere. But I think MMOs can be much more than just a race to endgame and repetitive instanced content. The open world is where these games need to change

[Thetruth1400]

By "Flex" difficulty I assume you mean hardmode activated at the encounter? I only ask because current flex raid came about during SoO and refers to raid scaling with raid size.

Yes, that's what I meant by flex there.

[Super Kami Dende]

I'll add my voice to the "MMOs are dead" camp.

WoW only survives thanks to its legacy.

ANd not the millions of people that still enjoy it? lolwut.

[primalmatter]

Really? Since begining, about 10-15% players raid, everybody else going solo.
Would you make such a decision to loose 85-90% of customers?

There was progression beyond raiding. Hell getting your classes dungeon tier and later it upgraded used to be a pretty big deal.

More importantly it gave a real sense of progression and improvement. There was investment in characters. Now... yes your ilv goes up and you gain ap but unless you are really pushing content it all feels pretty hollow I imagine. Has anyone cheered when a lfr boss died? Have there been any close calld and victories won by the skin of your teeth in lfd?

I dare say people enjoy being challenged. It would explain the succes of games like league of legends. I understand the desire to making games accessible but like communism I think it only works well on paper.

[Eats Compost]

ANd not the millions of people that still enjoy it? lolwut.

He's not wrong. If WoW were released today, out of the blue, in its current state without an established name behind it, it just wouldn't take off - for exactly the same reasons that damn near every new MMO flops, and least by relative standards. WoW's major advantage was that it got its foot in the door with an absolute ton of accessibility, support and branding at a point in time where the technology was at just the right point to give it an edge.

It's not really some kind of marvel of game design that keeps it going. It's just the biggest entry in a genre in which most people will only play 1 game at a time, which is largely self-perpetuating unless they majorly misstep and drop the ball. If someone's going to play an MMO, they're obviously going to start with the big one.

This is anecdotal, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of fresh blood in the playerbase either. Most people who are entering the online gaming space seem to gravitate towards something like LoL before WoW, and WoW's comparison against modern single-player western RPGs is notably worse now than it was in 2006. I certainly don't know a lot of people who are getting into WoW for the first time right now and sticking with it. I do, however, know a lot of people who unsubscribe 1/3 of the way through an expansion and come back for each new one just for the story.

[Echocho]

MMORPGs need to move away from lobbies, ARPG style loot grinding and the focus on numbers. It's supposed to be about the world, deep character customization and progression and actual RPG elements. The only current game that can decently pull this off is ironically The Elder Scrolls Online, a game so shitty at launch nobody would touch it with a ten feet pole.

[Eats Compost]

There was progression beyond raiding. Hell getting your classes dungeon tier and later it upgraded used to be a pretty big deal.

More importantly it gave a real sense of progression and improvement. There was investment in characters. Now... yes your ilv goes up and you gain ap but unless you are really pushing content it all feels pretty hollow I imagine. Has anyone cheered when a lfr boss died? Have there been any close calld and victories won by the skin of your teeth in lfd?

I dare say people enjoy being challenged. It would explain the succes of games like league of legends. I understand the desire to making games accessible but like communism I think it only works well on paper.

I think the root of the problem is that Blizzard has committed to making all main quest content 100% accessible, to the extent that they'll tune it so that people can play like monkeys and still make it through without a problem. It's not bad to make things accessible and for the game to be very easy where it makes sense, but it's the bar that they've set for the overwhelming majority of the game, to the detriment of almost every gameplay element that they introduce. It's kind of telling that the small slices of content that could be called "hard" are things like the mage tower battles; a single hard non-raid encounter for a player's character is so unusual that having just one is apparently worth having a parade over.

As someone who likes action RPGs a lot, this unfortunately makes the bulk of WoW a terrible action RPG.