Some Thoughts How To Fix Leveling Timeline Mess

[Mojo03]

I'm expecting level scaling and "maybe" a new difficulty mode to level in (mythic leveling?)

But ya I agree they need to do something, it's pretty bad atm.

[Paperfox]

Leveling content was destroyed years ago by streamlining it and making it far too easy to level which removed the fun and interest. They were attempting to please people who hate leveling. The problem is that with those changes, the people who hate leveling STILL hate leveling but now the people who like leveling hate it too because its too simple. Then Blizz compounds the error by deciding "its too late to make it like it was because there will just be outcry" and so they sell boosts to max level for $60 and leave leveling for dead.

They wont touch leveling now except to make crummy content like the awful suramar storyline or introductory stuff like the awful thru the red portal intro storyline or the awful broken shore assault storyline. And they think those disasters are good!

This. After Cata I just went and did quests to get one toon (who was really close) the Seeker title. Otherwise IMHO they ruined the levelling game. There were a lot of neat old quests in the world that got removed. (The Link questchain anyone?)

[MonsieuRoberts]

Couple issues with the leveling process from the perspective of Normies & non-MMO vets, AKA New WoW's target audience:


1: Story is a convoluted mess through the leveling process and most of it is largely irrelevant to the current content. The storylines aren't related to one another, time skips are prevalent and trivialize the role you're playing in the story, and act as a trap for newer players unsure what they're supposed to be focusing on. I think that most of the old content and old world should be skipped entirely and an alternate path be provided with a much MUCH shorter leveling curve. Perhaps some specifically curated zones and quests that give a surface-level understanding of past expansions and their importance, then thrusting you into current content right away. I'll touch on that again at the end.

2: Measuring increases in player power throughout the leveling process is unclear and largely trivial. What's the difference between levels 26, 34, 55, 62, 73, 88 and 94? You kill things, heal people and yourself, and take hits exactly the same way throughout this process. You might have a few new ways to do it, but the pieces aren't all together to provide yourself with the gratification of priorities & rotations like you have in endgame. Upgrades also play into this issue; Because the iLvl budget has been squashed so heavily, you can quite literally gear up through a few dungeons and not change that gear for dozens upon dozens of levels, and you'll be sufficient in your role. Gaining a dozen abilities while leveling from 1-100 does not dramatically change your playstyle, nor does replacing the gear you attained 15 levels ago; That comes once you've reached the current content only. It doesn't have to be this way.

3: A large majority of the older content in the game looks like shit in 2017. While veterans may travel through low poly zones and simply understand that this was the how the game was nearly a decade ago, newer players have much higher standards when it comes to visuals. They look at games like Final Fantasy, they compare visuals to console games and games released a few years ago, and laugh at how comically low resolution and low poly "Old WoW's" assets are. It's a jarring and, to many who don't have the nostalgia or experiences of WoW veterans or 90s'-early 00's PC gamers, unacceptable experience in 2017, dumping so much time into playing a leveling experience that not only looks bad and takes long (perhaps incorrectly understood because 100 levels sounds like a lot), but is telling stories that don't even matter. "Friends are fighting raid bosses and collecting cool loot and I'm stuck in this lime green polygonal hellscape released in 2007."

There's a lot of different ways to solve these three issues. Blizz offers a few paths to take:

-Buy the newest expansion and we'll push you past the irrelevant stuff so you can get right in the action on one character only.
-Pay us $60 and you can skip it all on one character.
-If you've been playing for a while, invest in Heirlooms and blaze through the old world.
-If you're new, Level a new character with someone currently playing and you can speed through all this old irrelevant content via RaF.
-Play through it. You don't know any better.

Note that none of these solutions require additional development or a radical change in the leveling experience. Some people would say that these are just band-aid fixes for a leveling experience years past its prime, and I'd agree if the point they're trying to make is this: The game doesn't have to start at level 70. Level 80. 90. 100. 110. Whatever the new Expansion's minimum level requirement is. The game can start as soon as you're playing; You should be able to participate in interesting, meaningful content that's not only tied to the improvement of your character, but also relevantly connected to the game's current content.

I really thought we were going to see the quest zones of WoD and the invasions of the Pre-launch event cast across Eastern Kingdoms & Kalimdor for Legion, seeing as the entirety of Azeroth was under siege. Imagine if every zone had a scaling-based world quest-like free form objective bar to fill, and doing so would result in massive XP for leveling characters. You could not only help people cut through the older zones which are chock-full of storylines that contribute nothing to the story of Legion, you can also help newer or returning players in bypassing the trivial leveling experience and instead provide context and experience that will actually help them once they reach current content. They're going to know about the Legion, the heroes of the expansion, and why they have to be stopped. They've just spent levels 1-100 putting out the Legion's fires, and now they're experienced, their characters are powerful and ready to take the fight to them. Enter the Broken Shore scenario, and the rest is history.

The reality though is that something like this would probably cut pretty heavily into the development of level capped content, and we know how well old world revamps work out just one or two expansions later. So the band-aid fixes persist and probably will forever, as it's the easiest, least-effort way of making sure those who are bothered enough to complain about leveling have at least a few options to minimize it or avoid it entirely.

All in all though, none of this matters. It's not like new people are playing this game anyway who are we kidding.

[Christan]

Oh look, another attempt at getting vanilla servers...


Here's how to ACTUALLY fix the timeline mess you encounter while going from level 1 to whatever is current max level in any future expansion:

1. Ignore timeline mess
2. Play the game.

How about quests/enemies scaling with char level everywhere you go?

Kind of like....world of timewalking, you love bc, go start it at lvl10, you hate draenor...skip it...
So on so forth. Random dungeon que based off what world you're in, outlands...etc, daily bonuses for dungeon dailies in each zone...
(And it could timewalk you down to whoever needs a que in that xpack at a lower level, would be faster que's for lower levels)

Okay sure its not a "fix" but at least your world class hero can travel back and forth in time at will. (They could change a few things like no more appearances of deathwing/lk/etc) just change a few quests.....i mean just because deathwing is gone doesnt mean the twilight cult wouldnt want revenge right?

[AwkwardSquirtle]

How about the quests to send you to Outland and Northrend are given via the Bronze Dragonflight? Have it be some sort of timeway synchronisation; "Show us how things went during these campaigns so we can make sure it's right."

[Sansnom]

2 - After revamp Blizzard locks access to Outland/Northrend/Pandaria/Draenor/Broken Isles. Lore reasons why we can't go there can be different. For example: after Naga's (New Threat) attack Alliance and Horde lose it's ships/portals etc.

3 - Old expansions zones and access to them Blizzard put in new shrines in Caverns of Time. Total 5 new entrances in CoT - Outland, Northrend, Pandaria, Draenor, Broken Isles. New Kalimdor and EK zones added in Cataclysm can be accessed through CoT NPC in those zones (phasing).

Explain to me again. What purpose would they serve now that you are proposing entirely new 1-110 leveling experience. Sightseeing? Holiday?

4 - Finally put Exodar/Silvermoon in Kalimdor/EK continent world and allow flying there (Current Exodar/Silvermoon technically located in Outland). Also new starter quests for draeneis and blood elves!

5 - No need to change start for worgens/goblins/death knights/pandarens/demon hunters. Just call their first quests and zone like some "Long time ago..." session. So after they finish their starter zone they continue leveling in current (new 8.0) timeline.

No? So this is the DK. This is the Panderens. We will not tell you what happened because we don"t want you to go there anymore.

6 - New Kalimdor and EK oriented for 1-110 levels. Rest levels people get in new expansion zones.

Ok. Entirely new world. How is that to what you said later ..

PS Another more radical way to change timeline mess is completely wipe whole world and remake new. But ofcourse Blizzard wouldn't make it.

But that is what is said earlier. How less radical is New Kalimdor and EK than wipe the world and remake a new one? Unless it so different it might as well be WoW 2.

[Kokolums]

I love leveling but scaling SUCKS and they better not punish more leveling with it.

[Razion]

Another option (perhaps easier and simpler) would be to give new characters the option to start at level 100 without having to pay for it.

[Mellrod]

You have to keep in mind the technical limitations of this all. The cataclysm revamp took a LOT of time and resources according to blizzard iirc. Revamping both continents again (which means all quests, along with every dungeon and/or raid in the old world) along with Outlands, Northrend, Pandaria, AND Draenor (again, all quests and every dungeon and/or raid) just doesnt seem very feasible, as cool as that sounds.

Too sleepy to go into much detail, but a lot of your ideas seem cool on paper but poor in practice. Why would we want to lock out all previous expansion, pre-revamp continents? That's like, over a decade of hard work and content in the trash. And I feel like locking you out of any zone or continent just because [lore reasons] goes strongly against Blizzard's design philosophy with WoW.

Don't get me wrong, we could certainly use an outlands or Northrend revamp (and its really cool when we get glimpses at the modern day continents during quests, instances, and scenarios e.g. Death Knight artifact questline, green fire quest, etc.), but if it were to happen, it would have to come one continent at a time. Maybe since all expansion continents are smaller in number-per-xpac, and size it could be quicker, but I think it would still take at least several patches for one revamp to be complete. Part of why they're better off as expansion features.

[Phuongvi]

How to waste a ton on development cash on content no one plays through. Good idea

Or a way to shit on ton of cash that you don't want to invest for content is every character you start are now level 100 not just one free boost included in the game.

[meroko]

honestly a level squish is what we really need. the timeline mess isn't the problem, the levels is. From a new player standpoint, leveling from 1 to 120 is a mountain. Sure a seasoned player knows it doesn't take THAT long, but from the eyes of a fresh player, it's an easy turn off from the game. I think just squishing levels will make it more enjoyable.

Something like:

Vanilla: 1-40
TBC: 40-45
WoTLK: 45-50
MoP: 50-55
WoD: 55-60
Legion: 60-70
Next Expansion: 70-80

Just completely spitballed random numbers there, but i think if it's done right it will make things flow a little better.

[Splenda]

Wat? No they're not.

Unless this was changed without my knowledge, yes they are. That's why you can't access them without loading screens.

[Ielenia]

New Revamp of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms:

Points #1 to #3 add nothing of real value and only add a hoop or two for people who wants to visits those zones.

Points #4 and #6 are really unlikely to happen. First, transferring zones from one expansion server to another is not likely to be something as easy as grabbing a chair and going from the living room to the kitchen. On top of that, another total revamp of the old world continents is not likely to go well with the community, considering the first time it happened it was poorly received.

And on top of all that, keep in mind that, the more time they spend moving BE/Draenei starting zones to the main server, revamping those zones to allow flying, practically remaking Silvermoon in the process (look for any YT video show how Silvermoon looks from a bird's eye view) and remaking the entire zones of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdom (along with its dungeons)... is less time spent on actual new content, like new zones and dungeons.

[In Ogres We Trust]

As everyone knows current leveling timeline is complete mess. Most players start in Cataclysm then go back in times of TBC and WoTLK. And only then they come back in Cataclysm timeline and things gets normal. Death Knights and Pandarens have even more messed up timeline - they jump from expansions timelines back and forward. It mostly caused by Cataclysm revamp and i believe next revamp can completely fix current mess. There idea:

New Revamp of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms:

1 - It's not secret what in last chapter of Legion we deal with Sargeras and his Burning Legion. And its not secret what Ashara and her Naga is next threat looming on horizon. New Old Gods invasion is good reason to complete revamp main two continents and update it's world to current timeline. And i'm talking about DEEP and CONTRAST revamp of current zones. Turn green forest of Feralas into dark and grim haunted forest. Make Plague Lands cleansed. The more changes the better. Blizzard can even change current capitals balance - destroy Stormwind/Darnasus/Undercity/Thunderbluff and rebuild Exodar/Silvermoon.

2 - After revamp Blizzard locks access to Outland/Northrend/Pandaria/Draenor/Broken Isles. Lore reasons why we can't go there can be different. For example: after Naga's (New Threat) attack Alliance and Horde lose it's ships/portals etc.

3 - Old expansions zones and access to them Blizzard put in new shrines in Caverns of Time. Total 5 new entrances in CoT - Outland, Northrend, Pandaria, Draenor, Broken Isles. New Kalimdor and EK zones added in Cataclysm can be accessed through CoT NPC in those zones (phasing).

4 - Finally put Exodar/Silvermoon in Kalimdor/EK continent world and allow flying there (Current Exodar/Silvermoon technically located in Outland). Also new starter quests for draeneis and blood elves!

5 - No need to change start for worgens/goblins/death knights/pandarens/demon hunters. Just call their first quests and zone like some "Long time ago..." session. So after they finish their starter zone they continue leveling in current (new 8.0) timeline.

6 - New Kalimdor and EK oriented for 1-110 levels. Rest levels people get in new expansion zones.

PS Another more radical way to change timeline mess is completely wipe whole world and remake new. But ofcourse Blizzard wouldn't make it.

a) WoW 2
b) Level Scaling
c) A dedicated team that constantly updates old content while two other teams focus on the current expansion - along with the expansion on-deck.

Anything else?

[Deleted]

the last time they tried something like this, cataclysm, it was a success but very few people actually played the new content. it was faster to level in dungeons, and the max level toons did not go back and explore the old world because why bother?

so i am sure blizz learnt from this mistake. focus efforts on NEW content and leave the old stuff behind. why make new stuff for 1-110 when u can put all ur dev time into the 110-120 leveling experience

Completely disagree. What do you mean by "very few people actually played the new content"? There are millions and millions of characters that have been leveled up in the revamped zones after Cataclysm release in 2011.

The fact that levels 1-100 are a complete mess in terms of story, challenge, outdated graphics (levels 1-85) and all kinds of issues is severely hurting this game. Not nearly everyone only plays at max level, and the reason people play at max level is the fact that the rest of the game is so screwed up. The leveling desperately needs a revamp in the next expansion.

[Apology]

You're all overthinking it. With current tech it would be pretty simple to fix the timeline, let me copy and paste a post I've made on the issue previously:

The story is messy because Outland and Northrend are crammed in the middle. You start in the present with Cataclysm (1-60), go back in time to Outland (60-70), go slightly forward in time to Northrend (70-80), then back to the present again when you get to Hyjal/Vashjir. Everything after that flows quite well from expansion to expansion, the clusterfuck is just 1-80 (more specifically the time travelling involved from 60-80). You'd fix a lot of narrative problems if BC/WotLK were optional detours and you just levelled 1-80 in Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms, which is all the Cataclysm timeline, then followed the levelling process as it is now from Pandaria onward.

Have every old zone start level scaling from their current entry level up to last expansion's level cap:

+ Every old world zone scales from 1-110.
+ Outland & Northrend scale from 60-110. You don't have to do these as you can go 1-110 in the Old World.
+Cataclysm zones scale from 80-110.
+ Pandaria scales from 85-110.
+ Draenor scales from 90-110
+ Broken Isles scale from 100-110.
+ New zones scale from 110-120.

Scaling is the answer.

[Darkarath]

Ion himself said that with the new scaling tech that they have for Legion eventually they will do something with it to improve leveling.

So yeah, IMO it's just a matter of time that they use it, but sadly I think that they will just adjust current content to make it scaled, instead of working in a new revamp (which I would love and I honestly think that is neccesary).

I would be ok with your idea of revisit old zones through CoT but I think that it will be easier to let things how they're and make two versions of the map. Like Old Azeroth/Future Azeroth. Like this they don't have to change anything in current content and they can focus on remake Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms from scratch, maybe giving us a new zone with each patch until everything is complete, and eventually adding the rest of the continents through new X-Pacs.

Of course I know that there are 0 chances of them doing that but I will love it.

[Kynario]

Oh look, another attempt at getting vanilla servers...


Here's how to ACTUALLY fix the timeline mess you encounter while going from level 1 to whatever is current max level in any future expansion:

1. Ignore timeline mess
2. Play the game.

Ignoring something isn't fixing it. If you have a tumour and ignore it it'll kill you.

[Deleted]

Ignoring something isn't fixing it. If you have a tumour and ignore it it'll kill you.

Are you seriously comparing a videogame to a real life death-threatening disease?

Wat? No they're not.

Technically being the operative word here. Those zones were introduced with TBC expansion and though they appear to be located in the old world, they are not part of it.

[Kynario]

Are you seriously comparing a videogame to a real life death-threatening disease?

It's an analogy. Anyhow, it's an old game (and still successful so hands down to Blizzard) hence obviously over the years this mess has gotten worse as features have accumulated and/or been removed. It's impossible to ignore. Can you imagine someone playing the game for the first time, coming from the PS4 or XBOX playing 1-60, then going to Outland (which is about 10 years old) then to Northrend which is a bit newer but still very "old" relative to something like Draenor or The Broken Isles... etc. The levelling process is incredibly incoherent and in dire need of being fixed and unified as soon as possible. :-/