Is 110 too high a level for new players?

[Spl4sh3r]

If there are 110 levels to play through, don't focus on the end, focus on the now. You don't play a game like Skyrim by grinding to last level (there isn't even one), you do the quests. The same can be said about World of Warcraft for new players. Your goal isn't to hit max level and then start enjoying yourself.

[Kazlofski]

There are players who enjoy queing dungeons. There are those that don't.
There are players who enjoy story quests. There are those that don't.

You can't dictate that all new players hate this system nor can you dictate that those like it. This system is how it is.

Many people that started playing vanilla, hated the leveling system. Myself included. Some loved it.
Many people hate FFXIV leveling system that foces you to go through the story. Others love it.
Many people hate the story leveling system of SWTOR. Some love it.

What you define as fun is not universal and you should never be shortminded thinking it is.

See the similarities? It makes sense for a new player to actually play an RPG, get some background story about stuff, level up in questing.
Without questing there is no foundation of an RPG game which is a mmoRPG, didn't say vanilla leveling was good nor anything
just saying try thinking as a completely new player to WoW, you don't throw a new player into short dungeon crawling, unless the game was advertised as mmoActionRPG, in RPGs new players expect a questing experience, then after they get the hang of the game, they will probably farm dungeons too but that's not a way to introduce players to new RPG game.

It's like imagining how many players would buy Diablo 3 and immediately player bounty mode instead of playing through the story once first (say it was possible)
Now you can say all of this is just guess work but again there are always exceptions, yes, they are just too little to matter and the entire business nowadays is based on educated guess work, that's how you make moves that hopefully attract costumers, nothing is certain nowadays.

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If there are 110 levels to play through, don't focus on the end, focus on the now. You don't play a game like Skyrim by grinding to last level (there isn't even one), you do the quests. The same can be said about World of Warcraft for new players. Your goal isn't to hit max level and then start enjoying yourself.

Completely agreed, especially not having your first time experience in an RPG - grinding dungeons non stop that aren't even long to begin with.
Because, of course, questing is literally impossible to do now without having to run to a new zone every few quests that you have done.

[Xargoth6634]

Considering you start out at 100 with the xpac? No.

[squirecam]

I think this boost to 100 is a bad idea for new players, maybe for returning ones it's good.

I mean think about it, an RPG fan starts to play WoW, he is immediately boosted to 100 and is regarded to as a hero, starting leveling in Legion zones...
That's so not fun in my view, you need to build up your character to become a hero and this is done pretty well in the low level zones, it's just that they don't scale at all so you do a few quests and that zone is irrelevant anymore, why is grey and green quests even a thing still?

People want to quest in those zones, slowly build up a hero but that's impossible atm which ruins the immersion completely and pretty much gameplay as every few quests you need to run to a new zone or force new players to spam dungeons to level up, think how not fun that feels like for them.

Why not simply "legion" the old world. Keep the exact same quests. But if you are level 42 and want to finish STV quests, the mobs will show at level 42 for you, with level appropriate rewards.

[Thimagryn]

If there are 110 levels to play through, don't focus on the end, focus on the now. You don't play a game like Skyrim by grinding to last level (there isn't even one), you do the quests. The same can be said about World of Warcraft for new players. Your goal isn't to hit max level and then start enjoying yourself.

Skyrim being a singleplayer game makes all the difference though, you never feel compelled to rush through the game so that you can be on the same level of content as your friends. The meta doesn't let you fully enjoy the content when so much content is tied behind the social aspects of the game (end game raids and dungeons, progression content patches). Nothing in the leveling experience preps you for the end game journey you have in front of you. It's also hard to enjoy the story when you wouldn't fight the Lich King at the end of Wrath content, you'd skip straight to Hyjal or Vashj'r after hitting max level.

[Xargoth6634]

after finishing the brief intro, which only teaches you a few of your actually abilities, they were immediately overwhelmed by the amount of talents, and abilities in the spellbook that they had no idea how to use properly.

Man, they would've REALLY hated this game in Vanilla, BC, Wrath, etc.

Come on, how hard is it to Google "hunter damage rotation" or the like, or read tooltips? There aren't even that many active damage abilities and cooldowns anymore.

[Allenseiei]

See the similarities? It makes sense for a new player to actually play an RPG, get some background story about stuff, level up in questing.
Without questing there is no foundation of an RPG game which is a mmoRPG, didn't say vanilla leveling was good nor anything
just saying try thinking as a completely new player to WoW, you don't throw a new player into short dungeon crawling, unless the game was advertised as mmoActionRPG, in RPGs new players expect a questing experience, then after they get the hang of the game, they will probably farm dungeons too but that's not a way to introduce players to new RPG game.

It's like imagining how many players would buy Diablo 3 and immediately player bounty mode instead of playing through the story once first (say it was possible)
Now you can say all of this is just guess work but again there are always exceptions, yes, they are just too little to matter and the entire business nowadays is based on educated guess work, that's how you make moves that hopefully attract costumers, nothing is certain nowadays.

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Completely agreed, especially not having your first time experience in an RPG - grinding dungeons non stop that aren't even long to begin with.
Because, of course, questing is literally impossible to do now without having to run to a new zone every few quests that you have done.

Sorry but expect an RPG element while leveling of a rollercoaster type MMO is putting the eggs in the wrong basket. WoW's RPG aspect died at the start of WotLK.
Especially at this stage of the game. In fact, RPG was never strong in this game, you need the MMO aspect to make a fufilling RPG experience here, and you won't find enough players untill max level.
You don't get the hang of a game by questing either. At max level you have had to relearn the game and the class ever since vanilla.

The questing system has been bad since the beginning. Right now you get vastly more exp in a zone than you need to finish it, before you got way less than you needed it. This shift was made in WotLK, where the accesibility mindset of this game took root.

So here we have another dillema. Who do you cater to?
The type of new player who wants to have an RPG aspect and takes a decent amount of time to level so you can experience it.
The type of new player who wants to play with his friends and wants to be at their level as soon as posible, and does not want to buy a boost?

However, with the new 100 boost since it comes with the expansion, maybe they will dedicate time to remake the old zones and make them a more singeplayer RPG structure for those who want to go through the "story"?
But what stories actually happen in WoW zones? Do they have any relevance to the actual story of the game? Hardly. Vanilla zones and TBC zones are the most detatched from the big scheme of things and are more sidestories. From WotLK and onwards they start being structured in a better way and more compelling.

[MasterHamster]

How about we don't design the game around uninformed players?

[Kazlofski]

Why not simply "legion" the old world. Keep the exact same quests. But if you are level 42 and want to finish STV quests, the mobs will show at level 42 for you, with level appropriate rewards.

That's exactly what I want them to do. One can only hope... Add WQs in there with relvant paragon caches and Azeroth will feel alive once again, at least much more than it is now...

[Wilian]

If there are 110 levels to play through, don't focus on the end, focus on the now. You don't play a game like Skyrim by grinding to last level (there isn't even one), you do the quests. The same can be said about World of Warcraft for new players. Your goal isn't to hit max level and then start enjoying yourself.

This might've been true if Blizzard didn't strip bare the whole leveling experience in itself.

[Spl4sh3r]

Completely agreed, especially not having your first time experience in an RPG - grinding dungeons non stop that aren't even long to begin with.
Because, of course, questing is literally impossible to do now without having to run to a new zone every few quests that you have done.

This I don't agree with. As a new player you should never feel rushed to go to new zones just because you gain less experience in the one you are in. Colors of the quest shouldn't matter to a new player, you are putting too many expectations on new players to play it "this way" or "that way". A new player should be playing it to enjoy the game, not rushing to be efficient in getting experience. Unless that is a way they enjoy playing as, but then they will probably just google for a way to grind to last level anyway.

This might've been true if Blizzard didn't strip bare the whole leveling experience in itself.

Nothing in the leveling experience is stripped. All quests in all zones are still there for you to do, sure it might not be efficient as I already mentioned to do it that way, but for new player there is no reason not to finish a zone before moving to the next unless they want to play to get to last level or if they have friends urging them to get there quicker. Which would be bad friends since they are robbing them of playing the game and learning the lore of it (by reading quest text).

[Deleted]

There are players who enjoy queing dungeons. There are those that don't.
There are players who enjoy story quests. There are those that don't.

You can't dictate that all new players hate this system nor can you dictate that those like it. This system is how it is.

Many people that started playing vanilla, hated the leveling system. Myself included. Some loved it.
Many people hate FFXIV leveling system that foces you to go through the story. Others love it.
Many people hate the story leveling system of SWTOR. Some love it.
Some people love to feel danger while leveling. To be actually able to die. Others don't.
Some people love to explore and take their time, others dont.
I can go on and on.

What you define as fun is not universal and you should never be shortminded thinking it is.

You are right. Fun is not universal. But people can attempt to make it fun. And honestly i have never met anyone not even on this wow worshipping website that likes the current leveling experience in wow. At best they say: "Leveling isn't ment to be fun, It is just a dumb chore till you reach the endgame." Which is super dumb.

[Wilian]

Nothing in the leveling experience is stripped. All quests in all zones are still there for you to do, sure it might not be efficient as I already mentioned to do it that way, but for new player there is no reason not to finish a zone before moving to the next unless they want to play to get to last level or if they have friends urging them to get there quicker. Which would be bad friends since they are robbing them of playing the game and learning the lore of it (by reading quest text).

All of the class quests, professions made redunant and near impossibility to keep up, all profession quests removed for starters. Many questlines giving indirect character progression like keys to locked dungeons and areas gone. Consequential gearing during leveling, poof. That's a substantial chunk of often themed content and purpose just gone. All you have left all in all is just basic story questlines that you outlevel regardless of trying to do that or not in areas that you can play through brains plugged off because nothing matters. And quest texts don't help when they're actively combatting the experience itself.

[Deleted]

All of the class quests, professions made redunant and near impossibility to keep up, all profession quests removed for starters. Many questlines giving indirect character progression like keys to locked dungeons and areas gone. Consequential gearing during leveling, poof. That's a substantial chunk of often themed content and purpose just gone. All you have left all in all is just basic story questlines that you outlevel regardless of trying to do that or not in areas that you can play through brains plugged off because nothing matters. And quest texts don't help when they're actively combatting the experience itself.

This is probably the best summary i have read regarding the issue.

[MoanaLisa]

Ok, to you, and everyone else saying "But the free level 100 boost!" Give me a break! You're joking right? Like, legit joking? You can't Honestly sit there and, with a straight face, say that that boost will do a single bit of good. If you do, you're imagining things Big time.

Lets look at the facts of that boost. There are THREE different play styles. Two of which are not effectively taught by a level 100 boost. So, if you tank or heal as a new player on a boost, prepare to rage quit the game when everyone yells at how Useless you are because you can't do your role properly because the boost does NOTHING to teach it. The only reason DPS can ignore is is because most of the time, the other dps do their job well enough that you're sub par dps will be ignored. Because again, the tutorial with the boost wont teach you how to optimize your toon At All.

It's easy enough to say with a perfectly straight face (no less) that leveling from 1-100 doesn't really teach you to tank, heal or assume a proper DPS role either. If you truly believe that people that level from 1 are going to be any more prepared for the reality of endgame than those that start with the boost I don't think you are correct in that belief.

I agree entirely that the game should teach roles in a better way but leveling from the start doesn't really do anything either.

They could do more with all of that instanced stuff at the Temple of the White Tiger to teach people how to perform a role properly if they wanted but I don't think they care much about that and I highly doubt that most players signing up for the first time now are intending to be mythic raiders. That would be an interesting thing to know though: How many players with mythic achievements started with the game for the first time in the last 12 months? Blizzard probably has an idea about that. I'd guess it's less than 5%.

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Your goal isn't to hit max level and then start enjoying yourself.

The many, many, many players who says the game begins at end game would disagree. I tend to agree that what has happened with leveling is bad but end game is where it is and Blizzard has simply acknowledged that attitude on the part of its players--encouraged it as well--and is now designing expansions as more-or-less standalone additions to the game. This is a fact.

[Deleted]

Actually 2/3 of them did make a boosted character, but after finishing the brief intro, which only teaches you a few of your actually abilities, they were immediately overwhelmed by the amount of talents, and abilities in the spellbook that they had no idea how to use properly. It works well for learning a basic rotation, but after that new players who use the boost are flung in with no real guidance past that.

That is what leveling is supposed to teach. Of course you don't enter the game at lvl max with tons of abilities talents enchants etc. You taste the class so you see if you like the fantasy or not, and then you proceed to level up your choice. I would say your friends are looking for some overwatch/lol type of game where you don't have to level up characters and you don't have to choose any talent/gear. Pretending to use a lvl 100 class in a trial and feel comfortable is a lot to wish.

[Allenseiei]

You are right. Fun is not universal. But people can attempt to make it fun. And honestly i have never met anyone not even on this wow worshipping website that likes the current leveling experience in wow. At best they say: "Leveling isn't ment to be fun, It is just a dumb chore till you reach the endgame." Which is super dumb.

That mindset will never disappear. There are those who will regard leveling as a chore untill you reach the endgame. It happens in every game that has levelcap.
I am unsure the size of this crowd but over the years it's vastly a big vocal part of the community and this has been fueled by the eficiency paradigm that has existed since TBC and has spread all around the MMORPG franchises.

I am not a WoW worshiper, I bash many systems that have made it into its core aspects, however leveling experience is very different from player to player.
Now with expansions carrying level boosts it might be posible to divide those new players who just want to quickly play with their friends from those who want to go through the stories of the leveling zones at their own pace.
Now we enter the scenario of blizzard making numbers on why new players that don't reach level cap quit. Is it because the leveling experience is boring? Too many levels?
Is it worth taking away resources from the endgame content, since new players only spend a month at max to get past them all but then they have many more months to play in the endgame?
Will the next Kul'Tiras expansion be a good moment to revisit the old zones with the new level scaling system?

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That is what leveling is supposed to teach. Of course you don't enter the game at lvl max with tons of abilities talents enchants etc. You taste the class so you see if you like the fantasy or not, and then you proceed to level up your choice. I would say your friends are looking for some overwatch/lol type of game where you don't have to level up characters and you don't have to choose any talent/gear. Pretending to use a lvl 100 class in a trial and feel comfortable is a lot to wish.

To be fair, many classes play extremely different from low levels to cap. You might have spent week/s on something you might not even like at endgame. Leveling teaches close to nothing since there is no posibility of failure in the content you do.

[Deleted]

Is it worth taking away resources from the endgame content, since new players only spend a month at max to get past them all but then they have many more months to play in the endgame?

Another good question. A possible solution is to keep old zones being relevant. The main scenario in FFXIV keeps revistiing old zones for new reasons. Sure, new sidequests don't come up, but you still keep comming back. And not just because you unlock more classes.

I'm sure Blizz can come up with several ways to do this. They are supposed to be the best at making MMOs after all.

[Bas Prime]

I wait since before they announced WoD that they cut the level number in half. Next XPack we would be 120 at max, so cut it in half and we re at 60 again. Sounds ok to me. Also the damge numbers are way to high again. Timewalking BC numbers looked good to me. To me it is a bit out of hand again even if we are that powerful. But we run around like nukes, killing a pig or raptor in durotar with an a-bomb.

[Spl4sh3r]

The many, many, many players who says the game begins at end game would disagree. I tend to agree that what has happened with leveling is bad but end game is where it is and Blizzard has simply acknowledged that attitude on the part of its players--encouraged it as well--and is now designing expansions as more-or-less standalone additions to the game. This is a fact.

Just because many players thinks so doesn't make it true. It's not like there is a black hole until you hit 110.