So if BoS is going away in 7.3, what spec do we play?

[Maxweii]

Frost will be a dead spec in 7.3 unless it outdpses unholy by quite a bit. The huge "immigration" of frost to the unholy side wont be reversed otherwise, even if they are the same dps wise.

That's extremely untrue as it happened when people went from Unholy at the start, to Frost in NH, to Unholy now. People switch to the flavor of the month spec to feel "better" than they are

[Deleted]

That's extremely untrue as it happened when people went from Unholy at the start, to Frost in NH, to Unholy now. People switch to the flavor of the month spec to feel "better" than they are

Although that comes down to personal preference i dont see why would someone chose the machine gun playstyle over what unholy provides, if the dmg output is the same.

People will follow the stream yes, which i dont see changing unless the 7.3 frost will get the hype that unholy got with 7.2.5

[Cosmic Janitor]

BOS now hits harder (about 30%), but is shorter. I have been playing chest/bracer anyways, maybe switch to belt/ bracers now. So BOS wasnt that long for me anyways. On FA i activated HRW+BOS after 1-2 OBs... so BOS uptime is shorter. Additionally there are massive buffs to frost. They might easily overcompensate the nerfs.

Everything hits 22+% harder, stating that as your argument and mentioning 30% for stronger BoS is a bit dishonest, isn't it? BoS got an effective relative buff of 10% in return it's overall contribution was probably gutted by 30-50% depending on what setup you were using before.

I also think the estimations of up to 28sec some people make here are more than generous, you'd have to fill up your RP bar before hand, get some lucky proccs and wait for acouple of runes to come back off CD before you start using BoS, all while twiddling your thumbs while waiting. I doubt such long breaths will be realistic or even effective, I think the 20 mark or even below will be more realistic in the long run as average, especially without having ERW for every breath.

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That's extremely untrue as it happened when people went from Unholy at the start, to Frost in NH, to Unholy now. People switch to the flavor of the month spec to feel "better" than they are

Man you are salty.. some just play the spec that actually performs well..

[Maxweii]

Although that comes down to personal preference i dont see why would someone chose the machine gun playstyle over what unholy provides, if the dmg output is the same.

People will follow the stream yes, which i dont see changing unless the 7.3 frost will get the hype that unholy got with 7.2.5

Some people prefer the MG build over Breath. As many people who will complain over Breath's build being "broken" there will be people happy it's not the only thing they "have to" play.

For example, I don't care much for MG, or Breath builds. I much prefer a Shattering Strikes build, but that would be nowhere near viable right now so why play it?

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Man you are salty.. some just play the spec that actually performs well..

I've played Unholy since launch of Legion, I haven't switched at any time so it doesn't affect me. That's just what people do.

[Deleted]

Something fun I hope. Well, as long as it's not BoS it will certainly be something more fun than we have right now.

[Nemesquish]

@Haidaes He might "sound" salty, but its true.

[Deonora]

Well I hopped on the ptr last night put a spec together i thought would work. I am 913 ilvl with 27% crit 22% haste and 40% mastery. I did what I believed would be a burst phase with pot flask and mastery food on and my burst was 1.87mil and sustain was 1.2mil. WAAAAY beter then it was on live. And I had horrible latency on ptr.

It feels quite good for me. And that was just trying out talents I like and though would be good. If this goes over on live I will be happy but I dont think it will. But I guess we will have to wait and see.

Did this all on a single target dummy with no splash aoe in order hall. Breath was around 12-15sec and almost got a 30sec one with popping 2 rune weapons in a row with seal of necro on.

[Deleted]

The changes are overall a huge buff to frost DK. The burst is very high and sustained felt really high. If it goes live like that people will change back to frost. I had 2m burst after 25 sec without drums... and frost has good sustained, unlike unholy with DA.

I could keep BOS up for 26 sec, so it was long enough for a complete pillar. Seeing they buffed BOS by 30% during its uptime (+ buffs to obliterate, RW anf so on) burst looks really high.

[Maxweii]

To be fair Unholy has plenty of sustained without DA being up, both the specs are looking to be very similar where we can burst out pretty high and then have good sustain in the meantime.

Though remember that the builds you're using might be inefficient, they might tune things up or down, tier might be adjusted, ect ect. This is extremely early PTR stuff here. If anything I do hope a Shattering Strikes build comes out, it's so very satisfying to get near 1m+ crits on FS easily (ptr here) with that talent on.

[Deleted]

Everything hits 22+% harder, stating that as your argument and mentioning 30% for stronger BoS is a bit dishonest, isn't it? BoS got an effective relative buff of 10% in return it's overall contribution was probably gutted by 30-50% depending on what setup you were using before.

I also think the estimations of up to 28sec some people make here are more than generous, you'd have to fill up your RP bar before hand, get some lucky proccs and wait for acouple of runes to come back off CD before you start using BoS, all while twiddling your thumbs while waiting. I doubt such long breaths will be realistic or even effective, I think the 20 mark or even below will be more realistic in the long run as average, especially without having ERW for every breath.

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Man you are salty.. some just play the spec that actually performs well..

But after BOS you will spend your rp for frost strikes. Considering BOS is much much stronger during PoF...

If the timing for BOS is bad, you can pick other talents. Obliteration is much better than its reputation. Even on live sims, machine gun was only 5% behind BOS. Considering the 21% buff +buffs to Obliteration and Talons, i could see domething like this!

Live:
BOS 1011k
Machinegun 960k

PtR:
machinegun 1100-1150k
BoS 1100k

And i belive my estimates undervalue BOS. But the MG build will gain probably straightout 20% dps.

[Deleted]

It's not really going to be MG either.

The particulars of MG was that the #3 damage source was Frozen Pulse, which is activated by having fewer than 2 runes, and using FScy to empty your runes along with OB. But they've put Frost Scythe and Frozen Pulse on the same tier.

RA & Icy Talons was also important to MG, and they've put both of those on the same talent tier.

RA was chosen over Frostscythe for MG on progression. Even without RA, machinegun will perform fine as a spec in terms of gameplay, you could before still easily maintain a 95% uptime on Icy Talons without RA, however, the real blow to it would be Frozen Pulse damage nerf, has to be seen whether it is mitigated by the 5% (total 15%) buff from Icy Talons. Howling Blast triggering KM during Obliteration and 2 second buff could make it a viable option.

Talents being shifted around could see rise to some different build, i'm interested to see what'll happen eventho I demoted my DK to alt for ToS

[Maxweii]

The spec isn't just stuck to Machine Gun or Breath builds too, with the talents being swapped around a "new" rotation could be added in fairly easily I would say things just have to be found, like how MG wasn't really a thing at first.

[Deleted]

The spec isn't just stuck to Machine Gun or Breath builds too, with the talents being swapped around a "new" rotation could be added in fairly easily I would say things just have to be found, like how MG wasn't really a thing at first.

True, but looking at the changes right now, there is no real synergy between any of the talents beyond Machinegun, and imho, that's important to have a viable build.
That's why Machinegun even became a thing, because there was clear synergy between several talents that increased those talents' value beyond the other choices. BoS builds have been around since start of legion, but it never become a thing until they buffed both HRW and BoS to make it competitive. If you look at other classes and their viable builds for each situation, almost all have talents that synergize with eachother, set bonuses or legendaries.
Shattering Strikes never was viable and probably never will be, because it doesn't really add to nor benefits from other talent choices available. It'd have to provide a crazy boost to Frost Strike for it to be even considered, and 60% isn't going to be enough I feel.

In fact, the only talents that Shattering Strikes has any synergy with is Icy Talons, and those cannot be combined due them being on the same line.

[Piz813]

But after BOS you will spend your rp for frost strikes. Considering BOS is much much stronger during PoF...

If the timing for BOS is bad, you can pick other talents. Obliteration is much better than its reputation. Even on live sims, machine gun was only 5% behind BOS. Considering the 21% buff +buffs to Obliteration and Talons, i could see domething like this!

Live:
BOS 1011k
Machinegun 960k

PtR:
machinegun 1100-1150k
BoS 1100k

And i belive my estimates undervalue BOS. But the MG build will gain probably straightout 20% dps.

I hope your estimates are close when the patch I live. I'm an Icy Talons fanboi. SS is cool when it hits for a fuckton but I'd rather play MG

[Icedcoffeee]

I'd like Shattering Strikes a lot better if it worked differently. Maybe if it interacted with Frost Fever instead of Razorice. (Harkening back to the old FS/HB focused Frost spec.)

[Maxweii]

True, but looking at the changes right now, there is no real synergy between any of the talents beyond Machinegun, and imho, that's important to have a viable build.
That's why Machinegun even became a thing, because there was clear synergy between several talents that increased those talents' value beyond the other choices. BoS builds have been around since start of legion, but it never become a thing until they buffed both HRW and BoS to make it competitive. If you look at other classes and their viable builds for each situation, almost all have talents that synergize with eachother, set bonuses or legendaries.
Shattering Strikes never was viable and probably never will be, because it doesn't really add to nor benefits from other talent choices available. It'd have to provide a crazy boost to Frost Strike for it to be even considered, and 60% isn't going to be enough I feel.

In fact, the only talents that Shattering Strikes has any synergy with is Icy Talons, and those cannot be combined due them being on the same line.

A very obvious thing that SS synergies with actually is Obliteration, and that's always been a thing there's no denying that. Murderous Efficiency, Frozen Pulse in its new spot also obvious choices. Only thing that wouldn't be very obvious is row 58 which could come down to the fight.

[pkusa]

I know this has probably been asked already, but as of right now (on PTR) what spec do you guys think is going to be the best? Unholy?

[RuneDK]

I know this has probably been asked already, but as of right now (on PTR) what spec do you guys think is going to be the best? Unholy?

We're at least two months from the release of the patch...this isn't really a question that can be answered right now.

[Nemesquish]

5% boys, we lit

[RuneDK]

They're fixing hrw which will nerf us but giving us 5% as compensation....what a joke.

Granted I don't expect much for frost until 7.3.