[Feral] Legion Discussion

[idunnowatdo]

Short update for some changes in the next PTR build:

Thrash will generate 1 combo point baseline - as an energy-spending non-finishing move attack, it feels like it should. The Tier 19 2pc bonus which previously had this effect has been changed to a 15% damage increase to Thrash. With these changes, Thrash is still intended to not be used in the baseline single-target rotation (not counting the effects of sets/legendaries).

Additionally, to help out Feral AOE a bit more, the energy costs of Thrash and Swipe are being reduced by 5. (to 45 Energy and 40 Energy, respectively).

Moment of Clarity will, as an additional feature of the talent, allow Omen of Clarity's clearcasting proc to stack up to 2 times (and is now tooltipped). This should be sufficient with how the clearcasting procs are better spaced out in 7.3.

That's huge!

In addition:
Bloodtalons extra damage reduced 25% to 20%
Moment of Calirty stacks twice now, extra damage reduced from 25% to 20%
Feral's damage increased from previous mentioned buff 33% to 40%

In general, all smooth and nice, hopefully not overextended?

maan blood talons took a pretty meaty nerf from 50% to 20 now. The overall buff looks pretty good so hopefully it offsets nicely.

[Whitepaw]

I think you're both of the same mindset, just the verbage is coming from different viewpoints. Can almost guarantee that most of the holdovers of keeping the rotation complex and punishing comes from WotLK, where we even had blue posts directly come out and say that because our Feral DPS rotation was so hard we were rewarded with amazing DPS. Skip ahead to Legion, that developer position (along with many others) have come and gone. The game itself has changed several times since WotLK, and the game designers just don't think that way anymore.

I feel most of the holdouts are using the terms complexity/punishing interchangeably. However, they're completely different, and both together are not necessarily good for anyone. The complexity of the Feral rotation comes from optimally using our energy/combo points in a snapshot environment while timing buffs/abilities to exploit said snapshotting while maintaining maximum uptime on our bleeds (talent choices alter how much we can snapshop or add extra layers of complexity). In 7.3, that's not changing at all, and it's still probably the most complex DPS system in the game depending upon your talent build. The punishing aspect of current Feral is that screwing up any of the complexity can drastically lower your DPS output. I'd even go so far as to say that Feral is so punishing that even if you play Feral correctly, additional environment/encounter variables (or even just pure RNG) can drastically lower your DPS output. In 7.3, many of the punishing aspects of the current Feral spec are being abated by relaxing timers and/or adjusting talent power so that you can be rewarded for adding complexity to your Feral rotation without being unduly punished because there's no wiggle room in timers/talent choices.

I think you're right about when the paradigm "More complex = more dps" originated. I raided a lot back then and I have to say: WotLK Feral dps rotation was a lot more interesting, engaging flexible and just plain fun than what we have now. We could target swap and deliver some pretty high numbers on single target direct damage, mostly because SR and Rip had much longer durations. But we could also mow down stuff with our AoE, which was basically Swipe spamming and so much simpler than today.

And the system was more complex:
- 2 debuffs on the target at all times (Mangle and FFF).
- 2 DoTs on the target at all times (Rake and Rip).
- SR always up.
- We had to be behind the target to maximise dps with using Shred.

But the reason we delivered so well wasn't because we had wonderful devs, who rewarded us for the hard work. It was because we stacked Armor Penetration! Because Hunters, Warriors and Rogues also delivered very high numbers by stacking ArP. Problem was that if you didn't have the gear (including that trinket from ICC), you suddenly didn't deliver the numbers.

So when I see all the arguments about a bleed heavy playstyle, how hard it is and how we should be rewarded for that, I have to smile a bit, because in WotLK, it was our DIRECT DAMAGE! which actually pushed us really high - and the bottleneck gear wise, if we didn't have it maxed.

The bleed argument and snapshotting holy grail paradigm comes from MoP and that trinket in ToT. Again, an outlier designwise, something the devs will hopefully never repeat, because having a trinket dominate that much is just stupid (together with the 3-4 enchant and trinket procs - yeah, the devs also stopped that).

As you wrote, the devs have moved on from that and our design now feels outdated tbh. If you want to see modern class design, take a look at rogues for a minute. I know, they got there by stealing some of our stuff, but that class is just incredibly well designed, with nice depth in the dps rotation as well.

But interestingly, it's not just their dps output - it's also their utility. Even if you disregard the immunities (no, the devs will never remove them), rogues are just well rounded and plainly fun to play. In fact, they feel like we did in WotLK (to a certain extent). That's a huge change, because their rotation has mostly been about spamming stuff all the time.

I hope the changes coming will achieve what you are predicting. But I would like some major buffs in our utility department as well - the Affinities are practically made for that. Some ideas:
- Our general healing from Regrowth should be at least doubled. Right now, a Regrowth heals me for less than 10%, which is plain wrong for a hybrid class.
- Resto affinity should allow us to cast Rejuvenation in cat form. It should also allow us to heal both our target and ourselves, with the same cast (the old Dream of Cenarius talent).
- Our healing with Resto affinity should be buffed significantly and we should be given a lot more mana. We should basically be able to function as a healer, but with something around 50% throughput of an equally geared dedicated healer.
- Our Balance affinity needs to be buffed by at least 300%. Right now, I do about 25% of my Feral dps when in Moonkin form with the Balance affinity. That's not enough. We basically take the talent to gain a few yards with our melee attacks - which is nice, but trivialises the talent and the whole idea behind the talent and that whole talent row. Being able to do 50-75% of our Feral dps when in moonkin form seems about right. We will still only use it situationally, since cat form will be way better - but we will not be penalised as much when the target is out of melee range and - here's the kicker - it will be freakin' UNIQUE for a melee class to do that shit, which will be awesome.
- Remove the CD on moonkin in Balance affinity. Druids don't have CDs on shapeshifts.

Too much, you say? Overpowered? Well, try looking at how hunters, warriors, rogues and mages are doing right now. They bring really good dps, but they also bring incredible survivability. We can do that too, with better gameplay tbh (immunities are easy gameplay - helping with healing our group/raid or shifting mid raid to ranged dps is much harder and much more Druidic). But only if the devs give us the tools.

And that will only happen if we ask for them.

[Malmmoc]

And the system was more complex:

If I am not mistaken, there have also been 2 buffs to our energy regen since then. it was a lot tighter back then and that is a big part of why it had a high skill cap imo.

[Deleted]

Added a new tab to the sheet, doing simulation comparison of the talents builds. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Please note this is very early stages, the APL (ability priority lists) will need some tweaks (by better feral minds than mine) so the talent rankings might change even if no ability values changed. Blizzard certainly have better information and simulations than this, so its just for giving the best feedback we can currently.

- - - Updated - - -

Short summary is sufficient:
- Incarn is a too high on dmg, but its hard to tune, so increase dmg of JW and SotF
- BrS is a bit too high on single target dmg, but its hard to tune just for that case, so increase dmg of SR and SbT
- EG is low on dmg, add a dmg increase effect (to FB) so it can be brought in line with MoC
- Decrease the aura buff as necessary

Alternative, bigger/more drastic change options
- Incarn - make it reduce the cooldown time of Berserk instead of changing the duration and effect, this would make it easier to tune and make it a more regular burst button instead of rarer bigger burst.
- SbT swap positions with Incarn. SbT on T90 means you are giving up regularly using two abilities, Rip and one of either BrS or SR which feels like a lot. Then T90 would be about selecting a new active ability sortof, Incarn, BrS or SR and T75 would be about changing rotation feel (smoother with SotF, tighter with JW or simpler direct dmg with SbT).

[Deleted]

- Our general healing from Regrowth should be at least doubled. Right now, a Regrowth heals me for less than 10%, which is plain wrong for a hybrid class.
- Resto affinity should allow us to cast Rejuvenation in cat form. It should also allow us to heal both our target and ourselves, with the same cast (the old Dream of Cenarius talent).
- Our healing with Resto affinity should be buffed significantly and we should be given a lot more mana. We should basically be able to function as a healer, but with something around 50% throughput of an equally geared dedicated healer.
- Our Balance affinity needs to be buffed by at least 300%. Right now, I do about 25% of my Feral dps when in Moonkin form with the Balance affinity. That's not enough. We basically take the talent to gain a few yards with our melee attacks - which is nice, but trivialises the talent and the whole idea behind the talent and that whole talent row. Being able to do 50-75% of our Feral dps when in moonkin form seems about right. We will still only use it situationally, since cat form will be way better - but we will not be penalised as much when the target is out of melee range and - here's the kicker - it will be freakin' UNIQUE for a melee class to do that shit, which will be awesome.
- Remove the CD on moonkin in Balance affinity. Druids don't have CDs on shapeshifts.

Jesus fuck no. You want to buff balance affinity and you want to take the cd off of moonkin form are you retarded? or just incapable of seeing consequences? If you remove the CD off of balance affinity, then the rotation will basically become moonkin with cat weaving. This is a fucking abysmal idea.

If you buff balance affinity then it will become a dps cooldown when you are pooling, it won't be utility, it will be a mandatory part of the rotation in order to be competitive.

have some fucking foresight holy shit

Resto affinity changes are also shit, I disagree that we should have the throughput of a healer, because that would break raid balance and would also lead to some fucking cancerous gameplay. Doing that in a patch would basically be "Feral is no longer a dps class, Now you're a 5th healer who can also dps" Its either retardedly OP and something every raid group would do (and also I PLAY A DPS SPEC NOT A FUCKING HEALER) or it remains useless.

jesus christ

[Whitepaw]

Jesus fuck no. You want to buff balance affinity and you want to take the cd off of moonkin form are you retarded? or just incapable of seeing consequences? If you remove the CD off of balance affinity, then the rotation will basically become moonkin with cat weaving. This is a fucking abysmal idea.

If you buff balance affinity then it will become a dps cooldown when you are pooling, it won't be utility, it will be a mandatory part of the rotation in order to be competitive.

have some fucking foresight holy shit

Resto affinity changes are also shit, I disagree that we should have the throughput of a healer, because that would break raid balance and would also lead to some fucking cancerous gameplay. Doing that in a patch would basically be "Feral is no longer a dps class, Now you're a 5th healer who can also dps" Its either retardedly OP and something every raid group would do (and also I PLAY A DPS SPEC NOT A FUCKING HEALER) or it remains useless.

jesus christ

Balance affinity: Really? A dps CD? I seriously doubt that. What I see right now is a talent that lacks meaning. That whole talent row promises us that we can gain at least some of the stuff that the devs have now used two expansions to take from us - but the numbers are so trivial, we just use it for passives (excluding the Guardian choosing Feral affinity and vice versa, which apparently is accepted by Blizzard to actually deliver what it says on the tin).

Resto affinity: If you want to play a dps spec, you should really play a non-healing class. We have been able to off-heal for a decade, so what you complain about has actually been a part of the Druid class - and the Feral spec - for a lot longer than you have even played Feral.

And you know what? It takes real skill to juggle several roles in a raid.

PS: By the way, the devs have admitted that our AoE sucks - and they are buffing it! In spite of all your nay-saying.

[Deleted]

Balance affinity: Really? A dps CD? I seriously doubt that. What I see right now is a talent that lacks meaning. That whole talent row promises us that we can gain at least some of the stuff that the devs have now used two expansions to take from us - but the numbers are so trivial, we just use it for passives (excluding the Guardian choosing Feral affinity and vice versa, which apparently is accepted by Blizzard to actually deliver what it says on the tin).

Resto affinity: If you want to play a dps spec, you should really play a non-healing class. We have been able to off-heal for a decade, so what you complain about has actually been a part of the Druid class - and the Feral spec - for a lot longer than you have even played Feral.

And you know what? It takes real skill to juggle several roles in a raid.

PS: By the way, the devs have admitted that our AoE sucks - and they are buffing it! In spite of all your nay-saying.

What he means is that you will probably end up with a gameplay not dissimilar to the old catweaving for bears if they buff moonkin. Something like

Dump all energy -> Moonkin -> MF->SF->SS ->cat -> dump energy -> Moonkin ->SW -> LS -> SS.....

If your moonkin abilities did significant damage this would be a major dps increase, especially when running without JW so you won't drop bleeds overly often. Do you really want to go into Owl form for your standard dps rotation? Sounds tedious to me, and I enjoyed catweaving.

[Purpleisbetter]

I REALLY doubt you'd weave as feral considering bleed damage would falls real quick when not on kitty form.

[Kraineth]

I REALLY doubt you'd weave as feral considering bleed damage would falls real quick when not on kitty form.

Uhh no?

Bleeds don't do any more damage in cat form than outside of it. If moonkin form damage was buffed by the suggested "300%" you absolutely would weave moonkin form+spells into the rotation, you don't do anything else while waiting on energy anyways.

[Whitepaw]

No, I don't want to have us shift constantly into Moonkin form - but having a talent with a proclaimed aim at giving us hybridity and then have it trivialised so much that we only use the passive effect is simply bad design. And remember, that hybridity and versatility has given us a lot of raid spots in past expansions, so it's not class flavour we're discussing here. Being a Feral druid has, until this expansion, also been about delivering utility to the raid.

We don't have that utility now, because our affinities fail at delivering what was intended.

Oh, btw: The suggestion that we would shift in and out of Moonkin form is incorrect. First of all, we wouldn't do that during CD usage or if a CD would be coming up within the next few seconds. Secondly, shifting out of cat form risks wasting the chance to fire a cat ability with OoC - so if MoC became the best dps talent, shifting into moonkin form would risk capping energy.

So when you guys speak about using Moonkin form to dps while regaining energy, you do it from the assumption that the current cookie cutter build of SR/JW/BT stays top dog - and that it's not possible at all to remove the CD, buff the dps in balance affinity significantly and avoid moonkin form to be a part of our rotation, all at the same time.

But I digress. My point is that while Feral dps abilities and talents will hopefully be fixed so we regain competitive AoE and get a better rotation, I would also like Blizzard to give us competitive utility by actually make the affinities deliver what was intended. And since the Resto and Balance affinity only deliver trivial effect, they need to be buffed.

[kerekes]

No, I don't want to have us shift constantly into Moonkin form - but having a talent with a proclaimed aim at giving us hybridity and then have it trivialised so much that we only use the passive effect is simply bad design. And remember, that hybridity and versatility has given us a lot of raid spots in past expansions, so it's not class flavour we're discussing here. Being a Feral druid has, until this expansion, also been about delivering utility to the raid.

We don't have that utility now, because our affinities fail at delivering what was intended.

Oh, btw: The suggestion that we would shift in and out of Moonkin form is incorrect. First of all, we wouldn't do that during CD usage or if a CD would be coming up within the next few seconds. Secondly, shifting out of cat form risks wasting the chance to fire a cat ability with OoC - so if MoC became the best dps talent, shifting into moonkin form would risk capping energy.

So when you guys speak about using Moonkin form to dps while regaining energy, you do it from the assumption that the current cookie cutter build of SR/JW/BT stays top dog - and that it's not possible at all to remove the CD, buff the dps in balance affinity significantly and avoid moonkin form to be a part of our rotation, all at the same time.

But I digress. My point is that while Feral dps abilities and talents will hopefully be fixed so we regain competitive AoE and get a better rotation, I would also like Blizzard to give us competitive utility by actually make the affinities deliver what was intended. And since the Resto and Balance affinity only deliver trivial effect, they need to be buffed.

Bring back symbioses? I kinda miss it, might be the only one thou xD. Would it not solve many of the utility "problems" ferals have?

[Hobbes0773]

Bring back symbioses? I kinda miss it, might be the only one thou xD. Would it not solve many of the utility "problems" ferals have?

Eh, that is sort of what the affinities became. I liked the idea, but in practice it just ended up being a huge headache to balance. I'd rather see something special utility wise go to each druid spec, and the affinities pick that up.

[Druitz]

All that feral changes are nice. Yes feral will be now more spam spec than ever (second ret pala?)

Our rotation will be much less punishing but imo it's not everything they should change.

Artifact should have 1 min cooldown but deal slightly less damage so we can sync it with berserk easier.
Swipe and Thrash damage should be buffed or Shadow Thrash. Energy cost reduction just make feral more button spam spec. We need damage not more buttom smashing.

We need for Thrash and Swipe be more efficent way of making dmg than mass rake on like 3 targets

[Hobbes0773]

All that feral changes are nice. Yes feral will be now more spam spec than ever (second ret pala?)

Our rotation will be much less punishing but imo it's not everything they should change.

Artifact should have 1 min cooldown but deal slightly less damage so we can sync it with berserk easier.
Swipe and Thrash damage should be buffed or Shadow Thrash. Energy cost reduction just make feral more button spam spec. We need damage not more buttom smashing.

We need for Thrash and Swipe be more efficent way of making dmg than mass rake on like 3 targets

If you think feral is currently a spam spec, you are playing it wrong. It is exactly the opposite. Additionally, they have given pretty good aoe changes, and thrash giving a combo point and the energy cost reduction should put our AOE in a nice spot. If they simply increased the damage, you would see Thrash enter the single target rotation and that would be awful.

In short, no. To pretty much everything you said. You need to spend some more time with the spec before suggesting changes.

[Druitz]

If you think feral is currently a spam spec, you are playing it wrong. It is exactly the opposite. Additionally, they have given pretty good aoe changes, and thrash giving a combo point and the energy cost reduction should put our AOE in a nice spot. If they simply increased the damage, you would see Thrash enter the single target rotation and that would be awful.

In short, no. To pretty much everything you said. You need to spend some more time with the spec before suggesting changes.

Read slowly and carefully again whole post or wait just one sentence "Yes feral will be now more spam spec than ever (second ret pala?)" I haven't said that feral is spam spec i said that there will be more button smashing than before.

Oh wait you are right. Mabe if i will spend more time on feral we will finally kill KJ mythic. Jk it's just troll post

Actually it reminds me old good times when i was going to school and all that teachers saying "read with understanding". Now i see why they were saying it's so important xD

@down
Yea i am done with troll newbies

[Hobbes0773]

Read slowly and carefully again whole post or wait just one sentence "Yes feral will be now more spam spec than ever (second ret pala?)" I haven't said that feral is spam spec i said that there will be more button smashing than before.

Oh wait you are right. Mabe if i will spend more time on feral we will finally kill KJ mythic. Jk it's just troll post

Actually it reminds me old good times when i was going to school and all that teachers saying "read with understanding". Now i see why they were saying it's so important xD

Ya, nice pivot to pretend that "more spam spec than ever" doesn't mean you think feral is spammy. Face it, you clearly do not play the spec. Everything you posted indicates you have no inkling of what feral needs, or even what anyone in the larger community would even like.

You're done here. Shoo.

[axxey]

Could easily have moonkin form stop or slow energy regen so it's not used to weave.

[Hobbes0773]

Could easily have moonkin form stop or slow energy regen so it's not used to weave.

That would be pretty unintuitive if some forms stopped regen and others didn't. Additionally, there is 0 reason to change it in the first place. It isn't meant to compete on any level with your main abilities. It is really just there to do some ranged damage when you can't.

[Whitepaw]

That would be pretty unintuitive if some forms stopped regen and others didn't. Additionally, there is 0 reason to change it in the first place. It isn't meant to compete on any level with your main abilities. It is really just there to do some ranged damage when you can't.

Except the damage is trivial, so the talent should be buffed


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[Hobbes0773]

Except the damage is trivial, so the talent should be buffed


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The damage is not the main draw. And it is still more damage than a feral can do at range without the talent, making it nontrivial. The talent is already chosen in many situations, and each talent in the row sees pretty even use when you consider all aspects of play. In fact, that row may be one of the best balanced rows in game. It isn't a row about direct DPS. It is a great row already and needs nothing.