When are we going to lose?

[Miatog]

The orginal transformers cartoon from the 1980s was a loss story. Megatron successfully conquered cybertron. Both factions crashed on earth but it was clear from the start that the deceptions had the upper hand. Only deceptions could fly. There were episodes where the deceptions converted an entire bay into an energon production facility and it was never really shut down by the autobots. The deceptions were slowly converting the planet and the autobots were basically hiding in the crashed spaceship run by teletran-1.

The story arc was ruined with the cartoon movie featuring Unicron & Galvatron because suddenly the autobots had the upper hand for no reason and they replaced a compelling criminal genius in Megatron with a raging crazy idiot in Galvatron. Galvatron sucked the way Deathwing sucked in Cata.

Funny how we can watch the same show and have different impressions. Sure the Autobots lost Cybertron, but on Earth I always thought they had the upper hand from the start. I never felt like they were the under dogs or losing.

It would be cool if Megatron had a counterpart in WoW lore but no villain is shown to be that cunning vicious and successful. Blizz would only do it the crappy way by TELLING us some villain is that adept in backstory while having him lose every fite in-game. For example, were told kiljaeden is a huge threat but we kill him immediately and he cant even kill a major lore hero or anything

The problem is that this type of villain is super hard to translate into video games, harder in an MMO format. If you had an entire bioware game devoted to KJ, then and only then could he come off as the scariest Mofo ever.

Who said anything about losing an encounter? Im talking losing in the story arc. Maybe the villains win and we win some fights to secure safe passage to exile.

But then it won't be a losing story, it will be a story of survival and we'll come back to kick butt. If you want a losing story, we need to lose the last fight...while also succeeding it...

Its not hard to write a losing story arc. You dont even have to write it. There are tons of them to borrow from. You could borrow from the transformers arc. Doctor who had single serials that were losing story arcs such as genesis of the daleks. Most horror is losing story arcs.

Here's the major difference from the examples you're giving and WoW. WoW is a video game, with characters we make and more closely identify with. Think how often in video games we look at the character we're controlling and we call him 'me.' It's stronger in any game where you make the character. It's one thing to watch/read about losing stories, it's another to experience it. RE and SH are amazing horror games, you win in the end. They wouldn't be nearly as popular if you failed at the end of the game, it would feel terrible. What you're asking for is much harder than you realize, and will alienate most players.

[Deadite]

Here's a question for people who want to see losses:

How would an encounter look where the players lose? How would you make this a fulfilling experience for the players?

Keep in mind that this would be content that people will be pouring a lot of time in, knowing that they'll lose the fight. They'll be required to run the encounter over and over again, but "successfully" completing the encounter would mean having to lose. How do you make that an enjoyable experience using the mechanics of WoW, without ruining the emotional aspect of a loss.

I guess the first couple of patches would have been the Legion gaining ground. Taking a city or two. Actually having an impact on Azeroth in some way. The Legion story is ridiculous. An army of unlimited demons show up in an armada of fucking space ships and a couple of patchs later we are on their 'Homeworld' and ending a galaxy wide threat that has been on the go for millennia? In Legion mere survival should have been the goal.

[Fabled]

Final Fantasy 14 did a losing scenario at the end right before A Realm Reborn came out, but that also was for a revamping of the game. It's doable, but no one likes to lose a fight, especially since WoW's formula is to get your ass handed to you early on, then work up to beat the big bad, as others have said, so I doubt we'll see it anytime soon.

[Ebalina]

We already lost we are playing the game.

[Krawu]

Umm.. we can't have all the female lore characters killed off cause how will we be able to repopulate..

Plenty of busty peasant wenches on the farms around Stormwind. Peasant kids make the best heroes, it's what fantasy has taught me.

[zox2]

Here's a question for people who want to see losses:

How would an encounter look where the players lose? How would you make this a fulfilling experience for the players?

Keep in mind that this would be content that people will be pouring a lot of time in, knowing that they'll lose the fight. They'll be required to run the encounter over and over again, but "successfully" completing the encounter would mean having to lose. How do you make that an enjoyable experience using the mechanics of WoW, without ruining the emotional aspect of a loss.

There are multiple ways of doing it. Like arthas 1 shotting us in icecrown, arthas chasing us out of the icc dungeon, the end of gundrak dungeon, where we find out we actually helped the bad guys, in a cinematic like wrathgate or the one with ysera in valsharah where we essentially find ourselves being 'just' too late...

[Jujudrood]

Didn't we kinda lose at the end of WoD when Gul'Dan escaped and whatnot.
I mean, sure, we trashed all the orcs and demons in our path, but he got away, so like, it's kinda like losing, right?
I mean, by playing WoD, we all lost sanity IRL and died a little inside, too, so double whammy loss?

[Destinas]

Lore-wise, we have had many missteps. At the Broken Shore, we lost our leaders, which upset the balance of the Alliance and Horde - something still being dealt with. Before that, when the Legion invaded, we only protected a few places, while other places were completely overrun or lost. We see Tian Monastery and Serenity Peak being destroyed or overrun by demons. In the Shaman order hall we hear that Thunder Bluff isn't safe from infernals, and that the tauren are being slaughtered in the fields of (presumably) Mulgore. Twilight Highlands were either destroyed or taken over by demons, leaving the clans scattered, mentioned in the same quest.

There are plenty of other things that have happened - Nethergarde and Theramore were destroyed in pre-events that led to us retaliating. The Horde has lost Vol'jin, Cairne, Garrosh, and Kael'thas (though, of course, the latter two were killed by the Horde as well) among other people. Even in Legion itself, we see Highmountain tribes being destroyed and manipulated by the drogbar and the Legion, we see Suramar's citizens being sacrificed/corrupted, and Val'sharah is a whole mess of problems from the Emerald Dream/Nightmare to Ysera's death.

Loss, in WoW, is met with retribution and redemption. It is only a means to give us a reason to do the things we do. It wouldn't be a fun game if we were constantly beaten down, never getting a chance to redeem ourselves, or being beyond redemption. Besides, despite the fact that people say they want to have a story where we lose, it's been shown that people dislike losing anything. People complained when Varian, Vol'jin, Garrosh, Nazgrim, Taylor, and others were killed. The Alliance didn't like losing places like Nethergarde, Theramore, Menethil Harbor, Southshore, etc.

Most of all, this is a game about character progression and exploration. We will win way more often than not.

[clevin]

huge lose? a planet we dont even care for?

it was the main focus of the expansion. In game, we cared. We cared because we started out thinking that the Iron Horde was a real threat to Azeroth. We'd end up caring because oh crap, the Legion just took that world and is coming for us.

- - - Updated - - -

People don't play an expansion for two years just to lose. This isn't going to happen. The pattern is always setbacks, tough roads to come back and final victory. A final expansion raid where everyone dies and that's the end is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of. It wouldn't make anyone happy and there would be a mass exodus from the game when it was apparent that was going to be the end.

That's the problem with expansions, though. They are essentially self-contained stories which makes them feel artificial, like the martial arts fight where 20 people surround our hero but attack one at a time.

A final expansion raid where everyone dies and that's the end is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of.

See my post above - we don't die, but are forced to retreat and the story picks up next expansion.

[Monstermash]

Like the Elisande encounter, every outlook points to us loosing. By any realistic estimation we are always supposed to lose.
But we don't, and that's why we are called "heroes".

So what you're saying is Elisande is like Hillary and we're like Trump.

[Cyclone Duke]

The first attack on the broken shore was a terrible failure and resulted in the deaths of some really notable figures. It took the class halls organising themselves and every class hall working together to mount a proper attack on the broken shore later and actually reach ToS.

[MoanaLisa]

See my post above - we don't die, but are forced to retreat and the story picks up next expansion.

Ah, so. A final raid where we don't die; we run from the field laden with our sweet raid drops and assorted loot. That doesn't really make any more sense. Makes less actually. That's thematically much worse than the Deathwing raid.

[clevin]

Ah, so. A final raid where we don't die; we run from the field laden with our sweet raid drops and assorted loot. That doesn't really make any more sense. Makes less actually. That's thematically much worse than the Deathwing raid.

Right because anything that doesn't conform to your narrow preconceptions is crap. Not that you have the capacity to actually explain why. Also, you might have noticed, if you weren't being such a twit, that we've DONE IT BEFORE. See Halls of Reflection in ICC for example. But then you seem to have the imagination of most people here - not much.

[Sansnom]

Whatever threat is next in 8.0, let them win. I want them to kill off a mass amount of main characters. Legion was doing it right until

Problem with that scenario is most of the citizen would be enslaved. Any survivors would be gathered in small enclave fighting like like some resistance fighters. While that itself could represent an interesting story.

The world needs to be remade. All capitals would be under occupation. Various facilities would not exist or greatly reduce to reflect the occupation. FP could possibly be shut down as well since restriction of movement and martial law would be in effect.

Think Suramar with the guards avoidance but without the masquerade and with much much much more players. All capital cities could be turned into Suramar and possibly turned into quest zones instead.

Then they need to remake the world to reflect liberation. Would require a lot of work and would stretch out more than one expansion.

[MoanaLisa]

Right because anything that doesn't conform to your narrow preconceptions is crap. Not that you have the capacity to actually explain why. Also, you might have noticed, if you weren't being such a twit, that we've DONE IT BEFORE. See Halls of Reflection in ICC for example. But then you seem to have the imagination of most people here - not much.

I didn't say it was crap. I said it doesn't make any sense. For the matter HoR never made much sense to me either but that wasn't the end-of-expansion raid fight either.

Relax. Getting offended and all up in my face because I disagree is pretty pointless.

I'm still on board with my original opinion: The OP's idea of what should happen is insane and would drive people out of the game early.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

The first attack on the broken shore was a terrible failure and resulted in the deaths of some really notable figures. It took the class halls organising themselves and every class hall working together to mount a proper attack on the broken shore later and actually reach ToS.

Which is why I said Legion was a right step in the direction. I don't understand why people think this is a bad idea when the losses at the Broken Shore HYPED people up for the expansion. Varian's and Voljin's death accompanied with their successors had hyped people up and loved that the Legion wasn't playing around. Games of Thrones, AS I've heard, kills of characters quickly and replace them and it is very successful show. Doesn't matter if its an MMORPG, it only affects story which doesn't really affect the gameplay like with Overwatch.

[emilylorange]

I'm so sick of "Azeroth is saved.". Its so repetitive, does barely nothing to push the threat of the enemy or the story at all. These late big threats, The Lich King's scourge, Deathwing and his Twilight Hammer and the Iron Horde were all built up to be these big bad-asses to destroy everything only to be watered down and be fodder. Stop creating these "Super-man savior" heroes like Thrall and Illidan that were born to save the world from evil. Its cheesy and not fit for the theme of Warcraft. These villains are being served to us on a different plate with the same flavor.

Whatever threat is next in 8.0, let them win. I want them to kill off a mass amount of main characters. Legion was doing it right until Sargeras' little incident in Antorus' raid. .

tbh I'm still pissed off about the damage they did to the world as a result of cata, I don't particularly care about individual characters but I'll be fuckin' mad if part of the continents go missing or darnassus gets thrown into the sea :P

[Lord Pebbleton]

Being on the losing side and still enjoying the game is an art. If you played Divinity 2: Ego Draconis before the Aleroth DLC was introduced, you know exactly how it feels to just lose after all the progress you've made.

[MoanaLisa]

Games of Thrones, AS I've heard, kills of characters quickly and replace them and it is very successful show. Doesn't matter if its an MMORPG, it only affects story which doesn't really affect the gameplay like with Overwatch.

It matters greatly if it's an MMORPG in which the story moves as slowly as it does in WoW.

Character development, something that makes players care about the individuals who inhabit the lore, is a very slow thing in WoW. The characters dying in Game of Thrones were initially put where they were by George R. R. Martin specifically to be killed off at some future point to propel the story along. No such thing has happened here as the story was set pretty much in concrete up to Arthas and everything after that has been largely ad hoc story creation. Legion could easily kill off more major lore characters and as spectacle that would be fine but as long-form story arcs lasting years it would hollow the game out of anyone interesting to interact with or to tell stories about.

Game of Thrones isn't popular just because there's the occasional bloodbath; it's popular because the story and characters that survive drive nearly everything. When they're gone the story is over. MMORPG's obviously can't kill everyone off just to give players a target for their raids or dungeons and the relatively simple stories that unfold over the course of an expansion won't support a ton of new enemies and lore characters introduced largely to be killed off the next without a proper background.

Mists was a sort of stunt expansion in that sense. Apart from Garrosh the rest of the expansion was built around a very strong, and for World of Warcraft, a more complex story about the corrupting influence of hate. It was all very philosophical at its foundation and those philosophical lines held the stories together. They might be able to do something like that again but trying to repeat it is likely to be very difficult. And it's difficult to imagine that Mists alone would have worked very well as an expansion without someone like Garrosh and his war crimes to symbolize all that can go wrong with the philosophical question being considered.

[Deleted]

I too would love it if the story would make sudden and drastic changes. All this "Bad guy is bad, lets hit him, he is dead now, we are heroes" has been going on for every single expansion. Why not join the bad guys for once? Kill the leaders of the alliance and horde. Maybe destroy dalaran? Enslave a few races? (no one liked those worgen anyway)

But no, lets all be heroes one more time for the next expansion...