16 year old German teen who joined ISIL captured by Iraqi forces in Mosul

[melodramocracy]

Should she be taken back to Germany?

Nope. She shouldn't be allowed back in the country.

[Noradin]

This is just willful ignorance, saying that one of those is a rational, coherent decision, and the other isn't, is setting yourself up for failure. In a country where sharing mean memes gets your prosecuted, how is joining ISIL considered just a simple misunderstanding. If she doesn't face the music, prepare for a lot more "kids" going to Syria in the future.

Nice strawman.
I was the one who said that joining ISIL is a crime under German law not a misunderstanding, it's just that the crime in question isn't namend "treason".

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That literally took 15 seconds to find that stuff online. Please do a little bit of research next time before you come into a thread swinging around misinformation on topics you clearly have no knowledge of.

Yes, and it shows, because you mixed up the crimes, learn to read legal texts.

And again, I didn't ever claim you could avoid facing all legal consequences for crimes against Germany by committing them outside the territory of Germany--that one is just your strawman that you keep attacking.

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I am basically at this point assuming that hes trolling, or he just has a hard on for Islamist

I'm pointing out that the crime she commited is not called "treason", that is all, and that it does not come with capital punishment.
Others used that to build up some strawman to attack.

After all, I was the one who originally brought up that she committed a crime under German law.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Is it moral degeneracy if you don't agree with people having a free pass to commit crimes in other countries because of their fucking passport?

It's moral degeneracy to insinuate it's OK to revoke or indefinitely suspend the rights of citizens under the pretense that they've committed a crime in another country, especially when the country they've been convicted by is known for human rights abuses. The fact of the matter is that she is a German citizen and Germany should request her extradition to try and convict her. She's not getting a free pass, and the mischaracterization of this situation that you are attempting betrays your incredibly toxic biases.

Let's assume there would be two 16 year old girls in that shithole, one a German citizen and one a US citizen. Do you really think it's okay that one would likely get 2 years of juvenile prison while the other will likely get convicted for treason or worse? Do you honestly say that they should face a different punishment based on their nationality?

If so then phew, I've got quite the out-of-jail free card in my pockets. Thanks mom and dad!

If both countries sought extradition of the individuals who committed the crimes then it is up to the countries they are extradited to, to determine their guilt and sentencing.

In your example, they aren't being punished differently on the strict basis of their nationality and framing it as such is intentionally dishonest. They would be charged with how the crime would be sentenced in their respective countries because they would be receiving sentencing in their respective countries. The countries may have different sentences depending on the crime, but that is an issue for the domestic citizens of the aforementioned countries to discuss internally.

[Barnabas]

Merkel will get her back to Germany and probably give her a few million dollars after portraying her as a victim in the media for weeks.

[Tackhisis]

But if you REALLY think you can commit crimes such as treason abroad and not face consequences in Germany

But no one has committed the treason.

[Malacrass]

It's moral degeneracy to insinuate it's OK to revoke or indefinitely suspend the rights of citizens under the pretense that they've committed a crime in another country, especially when the country they've been convicted by is known for human rights abuses. The fact of the matter is that she is a German citizen and Germany should request her extradition to try and convict her. She's not getting a free pass, and the mischaracterization of this situation that you are attempting betrays your incredibly toxic biases.



If both countries sought extradition of the individuals who committed the crimes then it is up to the countries they are extradited to, to determine their guilt and sentencing.

In your example, they aren't being punished differently on the strict basis of their nationality and framing it as such is intentionally dishonest. They would be charged with how the crime would be sentenced in their respective countries because they would be receiving sentencing in their respective countries. The countries may have different sentences depending on the crime, but that is an issue for the domestic citizens of the aforementioned countries to discuss internally.

- Countries have different sentences depending on the crime
- but they also aren't punished differently on the basis of their nationality.

Sorry I can't follow you here.

[Deleted]

She is a terrorist and should be treated as such.

Enemy combatant, eh?

[Deleted]

Apologists defending terrorists now. Hiding behind the literal definition of terrorist. Lol.
Stay classy MMO-champ.

[Liarparadox]

Except the "she knew everything" is probably not true as it's often the case in similar cases.

We should be angry at those who prey on them not on the victims of brainwashing.

Except, I never claimed she knew everything (your post has almost nothing to do with mine; it just misrepresents the view entirely, which i'm guessing is more to do with other posters and you're conflating theirs with mine). She's not just a victim; you're f'n crazy if you think that. And obviously blind judgement isn't justice. Don't confuse me with some of these other posters. Reply to them then, not me.

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Apologists defending terrorists now. Hiding behind the literal definition of terrorist. Lol.
Stay classy MMO-champ.

no kidding.

[Noomz]

Teenage Isil bride from Germany captured in Mosul

A 16-year-old German Islamic State bride, who reportedly joined the jihadist group after being radicalised online, has been captured by Iraqi forces in the ruins of Mosul.

Linda Wenzel, from the small town of Pulsnitz, near Dresden, was discovered by troops with a group of 20 other suspected foreign female Isil members in a tunnel under the Old City on Thursday.

Pictures shared on social media (see link below - no worries, nothing shocking to see) show the girl being escorted by security forces, appearing pale and unveiled but wearing a colourful scarf around her neck.

She grew up in a Protestant family, and had not showed any interest in religion until a few months before her disappearance. In the spring of 2016 she told her parents for the first time that she was interested in Islam.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...suls-old-city/

I guess she was lucky to surivive at all.
The question here is; what now? Should she be taken back to Germany?

To suggest that she's probably been through a lot of abuse and sexual abuse is probably an understatement.
I wonder how they'll be tried in a court. After all, they've joined a foreign fighting group that is hostile to their home country. I dunno, she's fucked up big time and there's little to no chance of her being accepted in her home country ever again. She'd be better off dead.

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Merkel will get her back to Germany and probably give her a few million dollars after portraying her as a victim in the media for weeks.

She is a victim. She's been used, manipulated and very likely physically abused. She's a dumb teenager. They're easily mislead and easily get passionate about the dumbest shit.
Of course, she's done something far dumber in an exceptional manner than most teenagers ever will. It will have consequences. But I think living with those consequences is the true punishment here.

[Darkeon]

Why are the apologists treating this girl as someone who merely converted to Islam? Willingly joining a Terrorist organization is several notches worse..

[Deleted]

Why are the apologists treating this girl as someone who merely converted to Islam? Willingly joining a Terrorist organization is several notches worse..

Nobody treating her as she merely converted to Islam.
However treating a young child with not a single clue in a worse way we do with actual murderer is just crazy.

Nobody here have excused her action. However circumstance are a thing important in law.
The idea that everybody associating with a terrorist group is someone evil to its core who just want to see the world burn is a limited vision of things.
The truth is that a lot of young people are isolated and told something very far of the truth.
Young boys are sent to die on the field for people who don't even believe what they tell.
Young girls are sent to sexually please warriors and treated even worse.

We are talking about terrorist group, they are not playing fair, they don't have to communicate truth when they manipulate.
Look at some crazy sect or cult. Its incredible how much we can manipulate some people overtime, it is not just a "You do whatever you want when you want" issue. Terrorist groups like that are absolutely no different. Those people don't associate with terrorist because they absolutly want to kill, they are lied to, progressively until its too late to go back.

[Barnabas]

To suggest that she's probably been through a lot of abuse and sexual abuse is probably an understatement.
I wonder how they'll be tried in a court. After all, they've joined a foreign fighting group that is hostile to their home country. I dunno, she's fucked up big time and there's little to no chance of her being accepted in her home country ever again. She'd be better off dead.

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She is a victim. She's been used, manipulated and very likely physically abused. She's a dumb teenager. They're easily mislead and easily get passionate about the dumbest shit.
Of course, she's done something far dumber in an exceptional manner than most teenagers ever will. It will have consequences. But I think living with those consequences is the true punishment here.

Hook, line and sinka.

[Stormdash]

As an aside, this case should remind why it is pointless and stupid to worry about "radicalizing" people via public policy. Anyone who even can be radicalized once they have reached the age of reason (i.e. aren't kidnapped child soldiers) is already 6/10ths a degenerate sociopath to begin with, because morally decent human beings are never on the fence about the depravity carried out by ISIS and radical Islamists in general. Public policy as to potentially radicalizing others should be "fuck them, too".

[BuckSparkles]

Executed by firing squad and be done with it.

Or locked up.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. If a 16 year old doesn't realize how dangerous and wicked ISIS is, well, not much hope for them.

[Magical Mudcrab]

- Countries have different sentences depending on the crime
- but they also aren't punished differently on the basis of their nationality.

Sorry I can't follow you here.

I cannot tell if you are being intentionally obtuse, which I would generally assume so given your disregard for citizen's rights, but let's explain in a bit more detail: Two people being charged for a crime based on their nationality and two nations having different sentences for the same crime are not synonymous. The former implies preferential sentencing and is a dishonest framing of the issue, the latter specifically indicates that sentences may differ between nations.

They should be sentenced in their countries of origin, especially if there is a need to extradite said citizens in the cases of the country they were initially held in have rampant human rights abuses. This may entail different sentencing, but different sentences are already different depending on the jury, judge, potential abuses and imprisonment previously faced, etc., for each sentencing, so acting as though the nationality is the difference that truly matters - not the ones that can already be the difference between receiving and not receiving a punishment - is silly.

[luckydevours]

how can kids even get these brainwashed

It's called religion! It took me more than 20 years to get away from it...

[Noomz]

Hook, line and sinka.

What do you mean?

[Kraenen]

The general conclusion is that insecure people simply seek a place where they feel accepted, as part of a group. I don't recall the name of the professor who said it, but freely translated: "it's pure chance whether these individuals end up as a salafi, neo nazi or scientologist". It's pretty much about which group manages to fish them out of the pond first.
That said, non-ethnic germans have no option to join a neo nazi group for obvious reasons, so I guess there is only radical islam left for them.

But that's the point - I think based on whether they're xenophilic or xenophobic directs them to salafism or neonazism. They may also be some variant of any of those, since salafism appeals to certain ideas and impulses and neonazism other ideas and impulses. So I really don't buy that they just randomly go any which way regardless.

[Malacrass]

But that's the point - I think based on whether they're xenophilic or xenophobic directs them to salafism or neonazism. They may also be some variant of any of those, since salafism appeals to certain ideas and impulses and neonazism other ideas and impulses. So I really don't buy that they just randomly go any which way regardless.

Yeah it's not random in the sense of "turn the wheel of radicalism and see where you end up", but more like pure chance which radical environment is close to you. The theory is that the basis is always [insecurity and the desire to belong somewhere], paired with a feeling of being left behind in general. A non-ethnic German won't try to join a neo nazi group, even if the environment is given, which only leaves salafis who welcome him with open arms.

Ethnic Germans don't have such boundaries, salafis welcome anyone as long as you follow their fucked up believes. Like a cult. Like scientology. You sign the contract and you are instantly part of the group, most likely even in a leading position because converts are treated with extra respect - almost like a trophy.
And it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that insecure people with the strong desire to belong somewhere LOVE the idea that they are suddenly considered a special brother, a trophy even.
And here we go gingerbeard salafi.

That said, its just the opinion of one German uni professor who's considered an expert on terrorism. I bet there will be more insight once the ISIL returners are sentenced and questioned.

I cannot tell if you are being intentionally obtuse, which I would generally assume so given your disregard for citizen's rights, but let's explain in a bit more detail: Two people being charged for a crime based on their nationality and two nations having different sentences for the same crime are not synonymous. The former implies preferential sentencing and is a dishonest framing of the issue, the latter specifically indicates that sentences may differ between nations.

So we are just being pedantic, now I get it.
The point still stands, in the end the sentence would be different based on their nationality. The girl with the German passport would face an incredibly lenient punishment in Germany, with the goal being to reintroduce her into society. That is, in my book, a free pass considering the situation, and I assume the vast majority would agree here.
The same girl with an US passport, on the other hand, would be trialed for treason or worse, likely ending up in prison for decades.

But no matter the punishment, it simply isn't fair, especially to the Iraqi people who not only had to suffer under ISIL, but also the garbage we exported into their country. And on top of it all it sends a message to all Germans that they can commit heinous crimes abroad, and if shit really hits the fan they can always rely on Germany to bail them out.

One shouldn't be able to travel around the world, fuck up and when things get dangerous wave the German passport around.

You stand trial in the country you commited the crime in, simple as that. If a Somali kills his wife in Germany I would also demand that he is prosecuted in Germany and not sent back to Somalia, doesn't matter what he would expect him down there.

I guess the only thing Germany should push for is a standard trial in Iraq, no vigilante justice from the locals, or at least make the offer to trial her in Germany if the Iraqi government just wants to get rid of her. But it should ultimately be the decision of the Iraqi government, no pressure.

They should be sentenced in their countries of origin, especially if there is a need to extradite said citizens in the cases of the country they were initially held in have rampant human rights abuses. This may entail different sentencing, but different sentences are already different depending on the jury, judge, potential abuses and imprisonment previously faced, etc., for each sentencing, so acting as though the nationality is the difference that truly matters - not the ones that can already be the difference between receiving and not receiving a punishment - is silly.

I don't know what to say here, really. You are okay with drastically different sentences based on nationality because procesuting people is biased anyway? What the...?