How is Fire?

[fiestatastic]

Sorry, was it not you who said this:

"Please stop misleading anyone, fire is absolutely not playable with the exception of a couple of bosses for ANY guild that wants to progress and kill mythic bosses."

I understand that sometimes a specific class is needed more when it comes to world first race, as the class offers a way to overcome a mechanic by having an unique kit, but your statement is purely based on numbers, while not being backed up by none.

So i kill bosses by playing fire, and you said its not possible. Can you please elaborate yourself?

Sorry, but I'm not bothering going back to read the previous exchange, but if I recall you went nonsensical and typed a bunch of irrelevant assumptions and ended with a conclusion that I should seek an abundance of psychiatric help.

My reply is accurate. You're making assumptions (i.e. I didn't say anything was possible or impossible .. those are very drastic words and assumptions to make) and are out of touch with the reality of what you're reading. Please read words and comprehend them accurately before you ask anyone else to elaborate themselves .... it's literally ironic that you'd make the weird assumptions you do, and write the things you write, but suggest anyone else would need to seek psychiatric help. I'm not suggesting you do, I don't know you and hopefully you don't. Please just try and take more time reading accurately and work on making less assumptions. Words that are not there are not there.

I love to play fire. You seem to love to play fire. It is for sure behind and not a viable single target spec for returning mages that might be looking to down mythic bosses. It is more likely than not they will end up being sat if they try to do this. I asked you to not make efforts to mislead people into thinking otherwise. As simply as I can write it that's the relevant exchange.

[Lamortykins]

Sorry, but I'm not bothering going back to read the previous exchange, but if I recall you went nonsensical and typed a bunch of irrelevant assumptions and ended with a conclusion that I should seek an abundance of psychiatric help.

My reply is accurate. You're making assumptions (i.e. I didn't say anything was possible or impossible .. those are very drastic words and assumptions to make) and are out of touch with the reality of what you're reading. Please read words and comprehend them accurately before you ask anyone else to elaborate themselves .... it's literally ironic that you'd make the weird assumptions you do, and write the things you write, but suggest anyone else would need to seek psychiatric help. I'm not suggesting you do, I don't know you and hopefully you don't. Please just try and take more time reading accurately and work on making less assumptions. Words that are not there are not there.

I love to play fire. You seem to love to play fire. It is for sure behind and not a viable single target spec for returning mages that might be looking to down mythic bosses. It is more likely than not they will end up being sat if they try to do this. I asked you to not make efforts to mislead people into thinking otherwise. As simply as I can write it that's the relevant exchange.

your reply is not accurate; frost isn't NEARLY as dominant as it was in T19. warcraft logs has about 4k parses for fire and 12k for frost in Mythic ToS. one fire mage for every 3 frost mages, killing mythic bosses. seems perfectly viable to me.

[mrgreenthump]

your reply is not accurate; frost isn't NEARLY as dominant as it was in T19. warcraft logs has about 4k parses for fire and 12k for frost in Mythic ToS. one fire mage for every 3 frost mages, killing mythic bosses. seems perfectly viable to me.

We have enough logs on only 2 of the harder bosses Sisters/Desolate. On Sisters Frost is way outperforming Fire, which sort of is an indication what will happen come last 4 bosses. On Desolate Fire is obviously better, but Desolate is really the last cleave/AoE fight in the instance.

So yes, Fire is good in the first part of ToS, but those bosses aren't about DPS anyways. Fire is closer on ST though, than in NH, but if you are progressing, you shouldn't focus on it, if you want to max your character.

[Deleted]

Was going to ask, good this topic happend.

Can guys tell me, what bis fire legendaries are good for normal / heroic raids? I have no intent doing mythic, because don't have people for that.

And general tips about raiding in fire mage. I got enchating so what enchs put?

Wrists are bis and they will make a huge difference on long fights. Belt is second best.
Enchants = crit.

If you look at the bright side fire is a lot less rng dependent than frost is.

Less rng? Let me laugh, got no wrists = shit, wrists don't proc = shit.

[Deleted]

We have enough logs on only 2 of the harder bosses Sisters/Desolate. On Sisters Frost is way outperforming Fire, which sort of is an indication what will happen come last 4 bosses. On Desolate Fire is obviously better, but Desolate is really the last cleave/AoE fight in the instance.

So yes, Fire is good in the first part of ToS, but those bosses aren't about DPS anyways. Fire is closer on ST though, than in NH, but if you are progressing, you shouldn't focus on it, if you want to max your character.

Fire is better on, Mistress, and Avatar

Fire is on pair with frost on kj

Frost is only better on maiden

So Frost is better only on the easiest boss from last 4

[mrgreenthump]

Fire is better on, Mistress, and Avatar

Fire is on pair with frost on kj

Frost is only better on maiden

So Frost is better only on the easiest boss from last 4

On Mistress, the add damage is not the priority. On Avatar, fire is ahead, because pointless cleave to the add(granted on heroic, you need to kill the add after 3 bubbles). About KJ can't say much, because haven't seen Mythic KJ yet.

That's not to say Fire won't work, It will and is perfectly fine. Just not optimal

[Deleted]

On Mistress, the add damage is not the priority. On Avatar, fire is ahead, because pointless cleave to the add(granted on heroic, you need to kill the add after 3 bubbles). About KJ can't say much, because haven't seen Mythic KJ yet.

That's not to say Fire won't work, It will and is perfectly fine. Just not optimal

You know that cleave on this fight works in both ways? When hitting mistress to break shield fire also cleaves Avatar. That is why Fire is so higher from Frost on the fight.

[mrgreenthump]

You know that cleave on this fight works in both ways? When hitting mistress to break shield fire also cleaves Avatar. That is why Fire is so higher from Frost on the fight.

Yet, if you go to logs, Fire doing 1,4 million dps on that fight, has the same Avatar damage as Frost doing 1,2 mil dps.

[Zenfoldor]

Just wanted to throw my experience in here.

I'm 919, but also having to deal with 4p t20 and 2p t19 at lower ilvls, so for fire ST, I'm 4t20 2t19 914. For fire aoe w/ helm, I'm 914 4p t19. Legos I use are hero ring, belt, helm.

For frost I'm 911. 4p t20 2p t19. I'm using the lego trinket and hero ring. 3 possible legos left for me to get under fire specilization, one of them is bracers(then new "utility" ring and finally gloves).

I've been learning frost using the excellent TMW addon and profile posted by a member on this forum. BTW thanks guy, the profile is awesome.

Things I've noticed:

1. Fire has much better survivability thanks to passive second life. I call it the fake death. Even though frost has 2 ice blocks, it just doesn't have the passive survivability bonuses Fire has, and I end up having to be more mindful of mechanics and health which means less tunneling. Because of this, I've been playing fire for progression until I know the mechanics like the back of my hand(I'm just getting into heroic this tier, actually, but I'm also legendary farming, so lots of tunnel competition each week, all old raids all difficulties + lfr when I can manage it)

2. Fire has much better movement than frost thanks primarily to 2 things. 1 shimmer the go to for both specs(giving icy floes no real advantage) and the scorch belt/ability having much more utility than ice lance spam. Sub 30% with the fire belt is really one of the best things in this game, when it comes to freedom and gameplay.

Imagine you are a normal character in WoW. At sub 30 percent with the scorch belt, you become a vampire.

A. Cast everything on the move
B. Damage goes crazy
C. You run as fast as your mount too

Really, faceroll happens at sub 30% w the scorch belt, it is pretty sick.

3. Dat t20 made frost go crazy. Like literally, I couldn't tell much difference as fire, but now I can actually play frost quite well.

4. Frost is crazy fun to play with double hero and whispers in the dark. It feels like a real machine gun spec.

5. Frost, right now, has one of the easiest rotations I've seen, and uniform. Everyone is running LW, everyone is running passive talents. I have left over keybinds that I can't fill with frost spells. Also with my legendaries there is no changing up of the rotation. W/ fire I end up changing quite a bit of my rotation depending on the lego. It's easy, fun, and powerful, and w t20 it really jumps ahead in

6. Single target is really good and easy as frost even w/ crappy legendaries. I'm 910 I believe on my frost weapon and 931w kj relic on my fire. If I'm not hitting 900+k on a 5 minute target dummy(not sims but actually playing) I'm not doing well. I can hit 900k on actual bosses w/ fire(or better) but it requires a bit of luck and proper boss timing.

7. How long a fight lasts, for me personally, seems to have a bigger impact on fire than frost.(I've argued against this being a huge factor in an earlier thread(and I still do), but it does seem frost is a little more consistent, whereas fire will have larger deltas depending on were I land between cooldowns)

8. Frost seems more rng dependent than fire, but that said I don't have the bracers yet(for either spec), at which time my "range" of st damage will expand both ways, at least for fire.

Anyway, just a few observations, not facts, but my understand of what I've been seeing in raids.

Fire is doing quite well for me because as mentioned, dead dps = no dps, excellent movement and survivability trumps pure throughput during progression, but once I get my fire bracers I will swap over to try and get some frost relics and I think I will end up having to multi-spec this tier.

[Rhov]

Already seeing famous mage players (Rikh, Drjay) progressing in mythic KJ as fire.

But oh wait, fire isn't even an acceptable spec for a mythic raider...

[Naiyano]

Already seeing famous mage players (Rikh, Drjay) progressing in mythic KJ as fire.

But oh wait, fire isn't even an acceptable spec for a mythic raider...

Don't read a post in this thread and just post a fact without thinking a sec about why they do it.

All three specs are viable to a certain point in progression. But you can progress through all of tos mythic without one mage in your rooster. And tbh i would do so (and yes i play mage)

[Rhov]

Don't read a post in this thread and just post a fact without thinking a sec about why they do it.

All three specs are viable to a certain point in progression. But you can progress through all of tos mythic without one mage in your rooster. And tbh i would do so (and yes i play mage)

Read some pages before and you will understand why I said that. No way I am trying to say we are op or anything like that, my point is that, as you also said, all 3 specs are VIABLE up to a point and people saying that x mage spec is garbage are simply clueless.

[Deleted]

Don't read a post in this thread and just post a fact without thinking a sec about why they do it.

All three specs are viable to a certain point in progression. But you can progress through all of tos mythic without one mage in your rooster. And tbh i would do so (and yes i play mage)

The current Mythicraiders have to bring the classes because they are undergeared for the content. Mythic KJ or Avatar can be killed with ilvl 930 if you stack the classes... but with better gear you can bring whatever you want... there is no need to bring 5 rogues and druids anymore.

I do not think that the majority of this forum plays for Method or Exorsus...

[Naiyano]

Read some pages before and you will understand why I said that. No way I am trying to say we are op or anything like that, my point is that, as you also said, all 3 specs are VIABLE up to a point and people saying that x mage spec is garbage are simply clueless.

Ok yes on that i agree of course.

Even if current players in progression guilds are undergeared and need to stack classes (which is a fact) there is no need to swap in other classes for all the hundreds of thousands other guilds who will progress these bosses sometime in the future. Except rooster issues. My point stands. You can bring mages, but there is no need to do it.

Edit: I suggest we go back to topic: Fire mage is viable in tos. If you want to perform at the highest level also have a frost spec rdy to switch to for pure ST.

[Zenfoldor]

I assume most have their 4 piece by now and trinkets, I've had it for 2 weeks only doing normals and lfr(and a bit of heroic), but I understand RNG. Here's how it stacks up in mythic for the last 1 week:

75% for mythic last 1 week as of 7-19-17:

Goroth -
Frost = 1,024,150
Fire = 989,162

Demonic Inquisition -
Frost = 1,117,327
Fire = 1,259,872

Harjatan -
Frost = 1,321,295
Fire = 1,399,557

Mistress -
Frost - 1,732,625
Fire - 2,095,247

Sisters -
Frost - 1,063,410
Fire - 1,008,655

Desolate -
Frost - 1,417,520
Fire - 1,520,760

Maiden -
Frost - 1,378,810
Fire - 1,316,080

Avatar -(highly limited instances, 11 fire 4 frost)
Frost - 1,224,130
Fire - 1,274,240

JK -(limited instances)
NO data(KJ heroic has fire ahead by about 7k in same setup)

But yeah, the guy says fire isn't viable for mythics, lol.

So far in mythic, fire is ahead, but there are 3 fights where frost is barely edging it out(despite less high end players, playing fire, and less parses by a significant amount). Wrong?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...le=7&boss=2032

eta: on Garoth there are 4,267 parses for frost, and 1,190 for fire. It would surprise me if the averages didn't move closer together if there were an equal number of parses for fire. By the logic of this thread, since only shitty players play fire, it should be well ahead if quality players understood it was viable.

[Xinder]

I assume most have their 4 piece by now and trinkets, I've had it for 2 weeks only doing normals and lfr(and a bit of heroic), but I understand RNG. Here's how it stacks up in mythic for the last 1 week:

75% for mythic last 1 week as of 7-19-17:

Goroth -
Frost = 1,024,150
Fire = 989,162

Demonic Inquisition -
Frost = 1,117,327
Fire = 1,259,872

Harjatan -
Frost = 1,321,295
Fire = 1,399,557

Mistress -
Frost - 1,732,625
Fire - 2,095,247

Sisters -
Frost - 1,063,410
Fire - 1,008,655

Desolate -
Frost - 1,417,520
Fire - 1,520,760

Maiden -
Frost - 1,378,810
Fire - 1,316,080

Avatar -(highly limited instances, 11 fire 4 frost)
Frost - 1,224,130
Fire - 1,274,240

JK -(limited instances)
NO data(KJ heroic has fire ahead by about 7k in same setup)

But yeah, the guy says fire isn't viable for mythics, lol.

So far in mythic, fire is ahead, but there are 3 fights where frost is barely edging it out(despite less high end players, playing fire, and less parses by a significant amount). Wrong?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...le=7&boss=2032

eta: on Garoth there are 4,267 parses for frost, and 1,190 for fire. It would surprise me if the averages didn't move closer together if there were an equal number of parses for fire. By the logic of this thread, since only shitty players play fire, it should be well ahead if quality players understood it was viable.

What legos are you using for Frost and Fire? I'm curious if it's a BIS vs BIS situation on both specs or something more like myself where I have BIS for Frost and Prydaz/LustRing for Fire. In that instance for myself, Fire is woefully behind Frost. Really that's always been the issue with Fire since the beginning of the expansion when it was "OP". If you didn't have the Bracers it didn't matter how good you were at doing the best rotation during combustion, you wouldn't parse high or beat any mage doing the same thing you were except they had bracers.

[twistedmynd]

If you have BiS for frost, it's going to parse higher than fire on single target. If you have BiS fire legendaries and no bis frost, fire is going to parse higher on single target.
The sentinel trinket is kind of like a legendary for this tier. And at this point, you can't really parse high unless you have it. It lines up with combustion and it sort of lines up for frost in single target scenarios. Fire does have more survivability. Some fights cater to it by cd timing or aoe moments. I'm unsurprised that the mage spec wasn't brought to mythic KJ. The only thing that could have helped the class would be doing the damage to justify the lack of utility and the entire mage class simply isn't doing that right now.

==

Some new things I've been keeping an eye on.
- A lot of Chinese players are doing a full single target rotation during aoe moments. I believe that would be best if you had relics that increase fireball/pyro and the new T20 4 piece. I tried it last night with the same gear set from the previous week (almost the same fight length) and it was 1.5 going full aoe spec and 1.48 doing single target spec with the same mastery gear and trinkets. I don't have the T20 4p and one of my relics is Blue Flame Special, so if you're better geared than me, you might pull more numbers just single targeting into the boss and only on adds at <90% or >30%.
- I got the legendary shoulders. After playing with simcraft for hours, I got it to where if you had high haste gear (~30% or more) and haste trinkets (like erratic metronome), it was parsing the same as the current default standard: no crit gear, bracers+belt. The gear I was using was T 19 4 piece bracers+shoulders AND T20 4 piece bracers+shoulders.
- Players are still undervaluing the gloves. I couldn't get it to do the same single target as my bracers+belt combo, but kindling+hands is less than 3% behind my standard build.
- I noticed that all 3 talents Mirror Images, Rune of Power, and Incanter's Flow are really close situationally per fight and on sims. If you have high haste, Mirror Images edges out. If you can pad, Rune of Power does well (Harj adds, Maiden balls). Incanter's Flow is performing better for most players in practical fights. All 3 are within 1% for me on simcraft.
- Tome of Unraveling Sanity doesn't appear to working like it's supposed to in sims. If you have another on use trinket, like our overlord sentinal's you have to wait for the other trinket's duration before activating. They do not work at the same time. I think that it's even worse than expected.
- Secondary stats are so erratic for me right now. One upgrade or enchant will change the whole priority. The one consistent factor is that crit for me is always my worst stat. But that's due to a combination of Firestarter talent, T19 2p, T20 2p, and the legendary Belt

==

That's all for now. I've been at the 86%-95% parse range this tier (95+ for my ilevel). Just got my sentinel's last night and I'm hoping for 4p soon. Hopefully I can finish the tier with another orange average parse.

[Zenfoldor]

What legos are you using for Frost and Fire? I'm curious if it's a BIS vs BIS situation on both specs or something more like myself where I have BIS for Frost and Prydaz/LustRing for Fire. In that instance for myself, Fire is woefully behind Frost. Really that's always been the issue with Fire since the beginning of the expansion when it was "OP". If you didn't have the Bracers it didn't matter how good you were at doing the best rotation during combustion, you wouldn't parse high or beat any mage doing the same thing you were except they had bracers.

Those aren't my numbers. Those are average numbers over the course of the last week, in mythic TOS. The percentile was left at default, so it's 75th percentile.

In other words, this is average, not specific to me. I just pulled them from warcraft logs and posted them here. They only go back one week, since many got their 4p this week.

With fire, as far as bracers, you can change out bracers for the hero ring and your dps will still be quite competitive. On my personal mage, I have all the legos for fire except gloves, and all utility for frost(that includes hero ring/trink, ect, all multi-spec legos). I run belt all the time, and helm for aoe, bracers for st. I'm running 4p t20, 2p t19 atm, with whispers and the haste trinket off the merlock boss.

- - - Updated - - -

If you have BiS for frost, it's going to parse higher than fire on single target. If you have BiS fire legendaries and no bis frost, fire is going to parse higher on single target.

Just to fact check this(I'm agreeing with you, to a certain extent), this is the last 1 week of mythic raids on Goroth

Goroth -
Frost = 1,024,150
Fire = 989,162

75th percentile - on Garoth there are 4,267 parses for frost, and 1,190 for fire.

The numbers should actually be closer, if you had an equal number of parses for frost and fire, going by historical data.

PS: Orange average parse is nice, sick play dude.