Turkey demands full EU membership a few days after they didn't want to join anymore

[I Push Buttons]

and I think it's time for the native Americans to reconquered the America seems a bit more fair tbh

Sorry, I forgot to put a trigger warning on my post.

Please forgive me.

[ati87]

Sorry, I forgot to put a trigger warning on my post.

Please forgive me.

Well this is what we call projection, when you start saying ''ah SJW and sorry for being triggered'' it actually you who are those things. You are projecting you're own feelings onto others and assume they feel the same.

[I Push Buttons]

Well this is what we call projection, when you start saying ''ah SJW and sorry for being triggered'' it actually you who are those things. You are projecting you're own feelings onto others and assume they feel the same.

No one has mentioned SJWs but you, friendo.

[Noradin]

Again look at the early comments in 2004 and 2005 about ''referendums and special partnership'' that byitself tells me how the EU as a whole was never really serious to begin with.

Screw the so called standards that's a formality when both sides are approaching the deal as honest parties. Turkey started out as honest the EU didn't.

As with every political issue there were some parties that opposed it.
If you call that "the EU as a whole" then that shows a deficit in the basic understanding of what democracy is and how it works.

And "so called standards" that are "a formality"?
That sounds delusional, apparently you do not know what the EU is and you want to join? (Yes I'm assuming you are from Turkey, you sprout the kind of misinformation that is popular there right now.)
Do your homework first.

[Deleted]

@ati87
Believe me: The EU would have LOVED to take in Turkey, but they also don't do it lightly.

I don't know about that. I think most people understood that Turkey is corrupt as f*ck and couldn't be trusted in the long run. Others saw that Islamic fundamentalism was merely resting below the surface, and it raising its head again would be just a matter of time. Luckily it happened before Turkey managed to join. Else we would truly have a Trojan horse situation, and a bad one.

[ati87]

As with every political issue there were some parties that opposed it.
If you call that "the EU as a whole" then that shows a deficit in the basic understanding of what democracy is and how it works.

And "so called standards" that are "a formality"?
That sounds delusional, apparently you do not know what the EU is and you want to join? (Yes I'm assuming you are from Turkey, you sprout the kind of misinformation that is popular there right now.)
Do your homework first.

Oh come on a few parties?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jul/19/turkey.eu

Article from 2005

Nicolas Sarkozy, France's interior minister, and Angela Merkel, the leader of Germany's centre-right CDU party, want Turkey's application to be downgraded to associate membership.

[QUOTE]France and Austria are due to hold referendums on Turkish membership once the accession talks end in about 10 years, all but guaranteeing that Turkey will be blocked if the current climate prevails.[/QUOTE]

Austria and Cyprus led the way in opposing Turkey at yesterday's talks. Ursula Plassnik, Austria's foreign minister, said: "We have always thought it would be smart to explicitly spell out an alternative [to full EU membership].

From a single article and it shows you the comments from those important Europeaan leaders at that time with the most influence. How you enter a negotiation is determines the success of the negotiating. Looking at these comments of EU leaders the author of this article already predicted that Turkey wouldn't join the EU anyway.

The EU sabotaged these talks in 05, they thought they could put a carrot indefinitely but at some point a horse becomes either tired of chasing that carrot or just gives up.

But then again you should do you're homework yourself first before accusing I haven't done it since I'm actually providing statements given by major European leaders of that time and you are just stating you're own opinion.

[Slant]

Which they had past originally and was no longer a obstruction to further talks, you may argue that Turkey today doesn't fulfill the Copenhagen criteria anymore but again that's a recent development while talks themselves have been slow since the very beginning.

Again it's being hypocritical at best when you try to put the blame on Turkey's because of the current course of the ruling party while ignoring the first 10 years.

EU was never serious period and that has nothing to do with the current government (see previous comment) even though till some point they used to be a erdogan cheerleaders.

You're in a serious lack of a clue if you think the Turkey ever came close to meeting the requirements the EU has for a democratic nation that wants to be accepted into the EU. What you call "procrastination" is what the EU calls "Turkey being stubborn and doing too little too late" before going 180° on basically the whole process. And then blaming the EU for stalling? Yeah, only a madman could twist that into something the EU is to be blamed for.

[Gref]

@Slant Turkey is far from joining EU. Erdogan is a fucking dictator.His followers are religious cults, zealots, all kind of terrible people. I hate how they ruined a wonderful country into the most hated one in a span of 10 years. I get that and I am completely EU side on this one. Why EU is silent on this? Warn him, show that his ways are wrong. (But Erdogan always need enemy to be able to stand in power so it might have opposite effect, as his followers really believe whatever happens in Turkey is because of Europe, he has to put the blame on others always so that he can continue ruling)

But for the love of god, sit and think. Do you honestly believe that EU was %100 honest with Turkey all these years? Don't ask me what double standards, dishonesty etc. I am asking you, Doesn't EU have anything to reflect upon? Simple Yes or No.

[Noradin]

Oh come on a few parties?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jul/19/turkey.eu

Article from 2005

From a single article and it shows you the comments from those important Europeaan leaders at that time with the most influence. How you enter a negotiation is determines the success of the negotiating. Looking at these comments of EU leaders the author of this article already predicted that Turkey wouldn't join the EU anyway.

The EU sabotaged these talks in 05, they thought they could put a carrot indefinitely but at some point a horse becomes either tired of chasing that carrot or just gives up.

But then again you should do you're homework yourself first before accusing I haven't done it since I'm actually providing statements given by major European leaders of that time and you are just stating you're own opinion.

Thanks, you proved my point. Twice.
Yes, it was some individuals and parties who opposed it who did not speak on behalf of "the EU", because they weren't EU officials.
And yes, you (Turkey) proved them right. I was in favour of working harder to gain membership for Turkey back then, but now I have to say I have been wrong.
Blocking Turkey and not giving thema ny leeway was justified and turned out to be a good thing. The EU was much to lax on them in the past, but now that the UK leaves that won't be a problem for some time, US influence on the EU has lessend considerably.

[zealo]

I think its about time Europe reconquered Constantinople, tbh.

That city has been in Turkish control for just shy of 600 years, and even then the decline of the Byzantine state can be pinned more on the Venetians redirecting a crusade to sack a Christian state.

Perhaps it's time for Greek nationalists to realise their chances of getting that city are slim to none instead?

[Noradin]

Interesting thought. I was strongly in favor of a Turkish membership in principal back when the matter cropped up, but also saw that there was a lot of work to be done beforehand. But I felt like they were on a really good run then, and at least the population in the larger cities seemed to be actual modern people with an educated common sense, and thus proper humanistic values. Not quite there yet, as the whole Armenian issue always has been the biggest elephant in the room (among a few other issues), but all in all I had very positive prospects. But then again, I'm German and only had the info we got through our media and the anecdotal things friends and colleques with roots in or ties to Turkey told. Maybe better informed politicians really did smell a foul kernel even back then already. I never considered this.

These are pretty much my thoughts on the matter, too.
Turns out the politicans who were in favour of "stalling" were better informed than average.

[Zarc]

And this is what's the problem...and proves my point that the EU was never serious.

You misunderstand. The EU is serious, always has been. My statements was not contradictory to that. Meaning a majority of member states have tasked the Commission to go forward with negotiations because a majority have been supportive of Turkish membership once they meet the criteria. Of course after all of this time they still have a long way to go, and lately they have regressed rather than progressed, which makes even some who have been in favor of Turkish membership in the past question if there is any point in continuing the negotiations as they don't appear to be going anywhere because of Turkey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access...ation_progress

That doesn't change the reality that once, if ever, Turkey meets the criteria each member state have the ability to veto Turkish entry. So while a majority of member states and by extension the Commission and thus the EU has always been serious, the reality is that Turkish membership will most likely be opposed by some member state, and that's enough for it not to happen. Both sides knows this, has always known this. However, if Turkey reached a point where it fulfills every criteria, and there can be no confusion as to what kind of Turkey would be admitted to the Union, then it could be that any member state that oppose Turkey today because they confuse present day Turkey for a future hypothetical Turkey that fulfills every criteria, would ultimately accept Turkish membership with a little nudge from fellow member states. That's why it has been worth pursuing, and of course the reforms Turkey would have to do to meet the criteria is good for Turkey regardless. However, since Turkey has been moving backwards for the past several years there's now an argument that there is no longer any point in continuing negotiations.

What seems to have been true for the last several years is rather that Turkey is not serious about it's aspirations when it comes to EU membership, as Erdogan has been moving his country in an authoritarian direction and away from liberal democracy, rule of law and human rights.

[Crispin]

At this point, Turkey would have to elect a far more democratic minded leader, reform for more than a decade to live up to the "stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities" standards among other. Turkey is at best 2 decades away from joinin the EU, and then they'd still need Greece to allow it, yeah right.

[Zarc]

At this point, Turkey would have to elect a far more democratic minded leader, reform for more than a decade to live up to the "stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities" standards among other. Turkey is at best 2 decades away from joinin the EU, and then they'd still need Greece to allow it, yeah right.

Given the recent adventures of countries like Hungary and Poland it seems like it would be a good idea, at least for such a large country as Turkey, to have aspiring member states live through multiple generations of political leadership of opposing political camps to prove they have a democratic culture and democratic norms that are well established and sustainable before they would be granted membership.

[ati87]

Thanks, you proved my point. Twice.
Yes, it was some individuals and parties who opposed it who did not speak on behalf of "the EU", because they weren't EU officials.
And yes, you (Turkey) proved them right. I was in favour of working harder to gain membership for Turkey back then, but now I have to say I have been wrong.
Blocking Turkey and not giving thema ny leeway was justified and turned out to be a good thing. The EU was much to lax on them in the past, but now that the UK leaves that won't be a problem for some time, US influence on the EU has lessend considerably.

Dude unlike what some brexit folks claim the EU are it's individual members. If Merkel and other major leaders says something in public it puts allot of weight and it determines the direction of the EU.

If France says ''referendum'' before the talks even started don't you think the negotiating people don't get the hint? If Cyprus blocks chapters don't you think it effects the talks?


A success of a negotiations is always determined before both sides even sit at the table, if both sides are willing it will be a success and negations will be formities. Brexit turned into a joke because the British side didn't take it serious, Israel and Palestine don't have peace because every time they are supposed to talk Israel announces new plans to build more settlements.

You don't announce you're end intention that goes against the spirit of negations and then question the other side after 10 years of obstruction

I'm not sure why people don't understand this, this is absolute basic. But I'm done it's pretty clear based on the early comments in 04/05 what the outcome would have been in any case.

[Pengekaer]

Turkey will never join the EU. When even Merkel, of all people (the ultraliberal piece of sludge that she is) understands that it would have dire ramafications, there isnt much to argue about. Turkey shouldn't be in Nato either. Seriously, we cannot be certain that a Mediterrian caliphate is not their goal and we still havent booted their treacherous asses? What the Hell is wrong with our leaders..

As for the piece of sludge called Obama who wanted Turkey integrated into the EU.. it warms me to see that he and his presidency ultimately ammounted to a zero sum.

[Noradin]

Dude unlike what some brexit folks claim the EU are it's individual members. If Merkel and other major leaders says something in public it puts allot of weight and it determines the direction of the EU.

That is where you are wrong. (One of those things where you are wrong.)

[Dezerte]

It's a damn shame what has happened to Turkey.

[Noradin]

I'm not sure why people don't understand this, this is absolute basic. But I'm done it's pretty clear based on the early comments in 04/05 what the outcome would have been in any case.

People don't understand "this" because it is all in your head and does not match the reality of the thing,

- - - Updated - - -

It's a damn shame what has happened to Turkey.

It is, but that does not mean they get to join out of pity.

[Dezerte]

It is, but that does not mean they get to join out of pity.

Of course. I hope Turkey can survive Erdogan and steer the ship back on course.