16 year old German teen who joined ISIL captured by Iraqi forces in Mosul

[Rennadrel]

Being a member of ISIL is itself a crime in Germany as far as I'm aware, and she will certainly have to appear in court and face charges.
There is no death sentence though and now that she was taken prisoner Germany would certainly protest if she was killed.

It's up to the Iraqi forces if they are going to put her on trial, just like the two Canadian girls they captured. All governments can do for these traitors is offer legal support, Iraq will decide their fates, not us. If the Iraqi government won't put them on trial, they will all be deported to their home nations and put on trial by their own federal governments for treason.

[Magical Mudcrab]

So we are just being pedantic, now I get it.
The point still stands, in the end the sentence would be different based on their nationality. The girl with the German passport would face an incredibly lenient punishment in Germany, with the goal being to reintroduce her into society. That is, in my book, a free pass considering the situation, and I assume the vast majority would agree here.
The same girl with an US passport, on the other hand, would be trialed for treason or worse, likely ending up in prison for decades.

No, correcting the way issue is viewed is not pedantic. Language and context matters, as it changes the entire frame of the issue.

But no matter the punishment, it simply isn't fair, especially to the Iraqi people who not only had to suffer under ISIL, but also the garbage we exported into their country. And on top of it all it sends a message to all Germans that they can commit heinous crimes abroad, and if shit really hits the fan they can always rely on Germany to bail them out.

One shouldn't be able to travel around the world, fuck up and when things get dangerous wave the German passport around.

You stand trial in the country you commited the crime in, simple as that. If a Somali kills his wife in Germany I would also demand that he is prosecuted in Germany and not sent back to Somalia, doesn't matter what he would expect him down there.

It's not a matter of fair, it's a matter of protecting the rights of your citizens. Your logic, by extension, excuses every single human rights abuse that has ever been perpetrated against a citizen foreign to the countries in which they were convicted under the pretense that the country they've committed the crime in should be the ones to ultimately handle prosecution and sentencing. The entire "When in Rome" philosophy on law your espousing basically eliminates your ability to decry human rights abuses all together, and if you expect your rights domestically to be defended it also makes you a hypocrite. You are demanding that we ignore their rights as citizens because they've committed a crime.

I guess the only thing Germany should push for is a standard trial in Iraq, no vigilante justice from the locals, or at least make the offer to trial her in Germany if the Iraqi government just wants to get rid of her. But it should ultimately be the decision of the Iraqi government, no pressure.

The German government should put pressure for her to be extradited, especially since she is most likely going to be receiving the death penalty if she were to stay in Iraq.

I don't know what to say here, really. You are okay with drastically different sentences based on nationality because procesuting people is biased anyway? What the...?

That's not what I said and is an example as to why I am saying language matters. There are inherent biases within the judiciary system of every country, and the delta between sentences is incredible to say the least. To use the US, here are two quick meta-examples:
> When accounting for factors (including offense, criminal history, pre-charge observable factors, etc.), men receive 63% longer sentences than women.
> When accounting for the same factors, black men receive 23% longer sentences than white men.

Extreme biases are a thing, and it varies depending on judge, jury, etc. Acting as though it's the country that is going to make-or-break the case is laughable. If one received a more left-leaning jury and the other a more right-leaning jury, do you think they would still receive the same sentences? (Hint: most definitely no, with the latter having a significantly more biased jury).

[Noradin]

It's up to the Iraqi forces if they are going to put her on trial, just like the two Canadian girls they captured. All governments can do for these traitors is offer legal support, Iraq will decide their fates, not us. If the Iraqi government won't put them on trial, they will all be deported to their home nations and put on trial by their own federal governments for treason.

Yes it is up to them, but they already indicated that they want to sent her to Germany where she will face a trial, but likely not for treason.
The German law is more specific than that.

[Deleted]

I mean, it's this kind of sentiment which shows that there is pockets of moral degeneracy in the West. It doesn't really matter what crime she committed, she's a German citizen and is entitled to the rights of a German citizen, which includes a trial and sentencing. You cannot just dismiss someone's rights as a citizen because they've done something which is obviously wrong or stupid, and she has not - from what I can tell - had her citizenship revoked.

"Moral degeneracy" in the vein of "disapproving violence towards your own in-group", also known as treason.

This mindset covers nearly everything wrong with the western world.

[Noradin]

"Moral degeneracy" in the vein of "disapproving violence towards your own in-group", also known as treason.

This mindset covers nearly everything wrong with the western world.

You'd rather be a member of the eastern one?
More like Turkey or more like North Korea, or maybe Russia and China are your ideal states?

[Barnabas]

What do you mean?

That people agree already she is the victim. If she goes unpunished then you rewarded her bad behavior.

[ranzino]

That people agree already she is the victim. If she goes unpunished then you rewarded her bad behavior.

she will spend some time im prison. Just because germans dont cry "omfg it's treason !!" and call for her head or a lifetime sentence it would be still far away from "going unpunished".

[Noomz]

That people agree already she is the victim. If she goes unpunished then you rewarded her bad behavior.

Saying "Hook, line and sinker" is for when someone falls for something and implies you've gotten someone to take a bait. WHat kind of bait am I supposed to have taken here? You don't think her life under ISIL rule and her future life is a punishment? She's forever alienated. She will never have a life again.

[Powerogue]

She is a terrorist and should be treated as such.

I'm inclined to go the cold route and agree. I don't see us going easy on all the other terrorists, who are similarly radicalized at a young, impressionable age, but more locally to that region.

[Miyagie]

Saying "Hook, line and sinker" is for when someone falls for something and implies you've gotten someone to take a bait. WHat kind of bait am I supposed to have taken here? You don't think her life under ISIL rule and her future life is a punishment? She's forever alienated. She will never have a life again.

I bet every salafist group in germany will give her a new home so who cares what her friends and family think when we got a few 10.000 hardcore muslims in germany that welcome her with open arms.

[Deleted]

Just shoot her and be done with it. She made her choice and now she should reap the rewards for wanting us all dead.

[Noradin]

I bet every salafist group in germany will give her a new home so who cares what her friends and family think when we got a few 10.000 hardcore muslims in germany that welcome her with open arms.

Very, very unlikely.
Why? Because she will be watched for the rest of her life.
Thus having her in such a group would not be worth the risk.

[Ehrenpanzer]

She's still a citizen of Germany. If she wants to go back to Germany then there is no base to stop her. Of course, she should be under surveilance.
If there is no evidence of her committing any crime then she can't be put before court. There is not much that can be done here. The most they could do is leave her there and make her go back on her own ^^

Knowingly and willingly aiding and abetting a terrorist group IS a crime.

[Deleted]

Knowingly and willingly aiding and abetting a terrorist group IS a crime.

But not if that "aiding" is about to get her back to germany to receive justice at a german court.

[Ehrenpanzer]

How quick the internet is to sentence impressionable children to death...

Talk about disgusting

Ok.. we arent talking about being pressured into joining a local street gang and selling drugs, or kicking over headstones in a cemetery. This is knowingly, and willingly, having needed to intentionally research and put a great deal of planning beforehand into, joining a terrorist organization that no-one can deny knowing: beheads, drowns, cuts off head or otherwise tortures people for the sole reason of not believing in the mystical man in the sky in the same way they do. If at 16 you cannot fathom that being a part of that group is wrong (especially when raised in Western society) you are a sadistic psychopath that the world is better off without.

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But not if that "aiding" is about to get her back to germany to receive justice at a german court.

Thats a pretty big IF at this point in time. Germany will stomp their feet, but unless they are willing to offer something significant to Iraq, there is not much they can do to "force them" to extradite her.

[Deleted]

Thats a pretty big IF at this point in time. Germany will stomp their feet, but unless they are willing to offer something significant to Iraq, there is not much they can do to "force them" to extradite her.

I dont think anyone wants to force Iraq to do anything. If Iraq wants to get her to their court, they should do.

Think about the idea she killed Iraq people. If that is the case, the iraq people also should have the right to punish her.

I wouldnt mind.

[Ehrenpanzer]

I dont think anyone wants to force Iraq to do anything. If Iraq wants to get her to their court, they should do.

Think about the idea she killed Iraq people. If that is the case, the iraq people also should have the right to punish her.

I wouldnt mind.

What I would expect to see is a full Iraqi trial, an execution sentence, then commuted to life in prison and a transfer to a German jail based on backdoor politics and economic/military negotiations.

[Deleted]

Knowingly and willingly aiding and abetting a terrorist group IS a crime.

Her is the kicker... she did not go to syria to join IS, she did go to Syria to meet her internet boyfrend....stupid choice but not illegally, what she did or did not do after can be explained by she was forced, and its upp to the prosecutor to prove she did it willingly....

[Miyagie]

Very, very unlikely.
Why? Because she will be watched for the rest of her life.
Thus having her in such a group would not be worth the risk.

Ofc she can be watched but how you watch a burka wearing women that went underground ?

[Magical Mudcrab]

"Moral degeneracy" in the vein of "disapproving violence towards your own in-group", also known as treason.

This mindset covers nearly everything wrong with the western world.

No, that's not what I said. It's deflections like this that betray people's intentions.

The degeneracy is the acceptance of having different standards for your citizens because what they've done is objectionable. She is still a citizen of Germany and should still be granted the rights available to a German citizen. The advocacy for the suspension or revoking of her rights on the flimsy basis of retribution or the nature of the crime committed are at best vindictive and lacking critical thought or moral standards. She should be brought back into Germany, tried as a German citizen for any crimes she has committed, and then sentenced. She should not be left to rot in an Iraqi jail, a country well known for its human rights abuses.

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You'd rather be a member of the eastern one?
More like Turkey or more like North Korea, or maybe Russia and China are your ideal states?

No, that's not what Tupimus is implying. What I believe they are referring to is the current meme of the self-destructive ideology of people downplaying acts of violence by an out-group towards an in-group. What's incredibly frustrating is that people assign this label and assume people who disapprove of human rights abuses are in some kind of ideological agreement with this, when I have consistently stated that she should be tried and convicted, but as a German citizen.