Isn't Artifacts just the Old Talent system?

[Beckers]

No. Old talent system had choices because you couldn't get all of them, and some choices were better than others so you feel forced to copy the best builds.

Artifact traits, on the other hand, can be entirely collected eventually, so everyone ends up equal in the long run. The only choice is which skills you choose first.

I think the Artifact tree style should be ported to the Skill tab. Instead of we getting new skills at fixed levels (while leveling, of course), we should have a Skill tree in which we get points every level (or every other level) and we "build up" our skills (some or all of them with several points), and everyone complete the tree entirely when reaching max level. Would make leveling up more interesting.

Now that is a super cool idea! Picking the order you get things sounds perfect actually!

I would post it in the official forums if I were you.

[Deleted]

There isnt no choice, you just play the bis/cookie cutter.

Like now.

You can ofc "choose" but still you choose the BIS talent, so don't try to "ehueuhhe flaw logic" only flaw is yours about a real choice that makes all "choices" valid like cookiebuild.


My tantrum is just because people argue "HURR DURR WE HAD CHOICE BACK IN !!!" like if now we don't have.

And who gets to define what is and isn't a "real" choice? Or what is and isn't a "valid" choice?

Of course the current system offers a choice, there's fewer choices to be made compared to the previous system, but there's choice all the same.

[Deleted]

It doesn't nullify the point that there's a difference.

There is a difference, but not a choice, so the difference is, to me, nullified and useless. Of course there is a difference, their very name is, i don't see the point of this thread and all the post that answer to him.

[Adoxe]

All the morons here who say that you didnt have any choice or that hybrid specs sucked can google 33/28/0 arms pve, Gg wp.

You call people morons for saying that there was no choice and then you say "google 33/28/0". That's exactly what they're saying, you GOOGLED which talents you take just like now. There never was a choice and never will be unless you do nothing useful in the game and enjoy making your character worse.

[Deleted]

You call people morons for saying that there was no choice and then you say "google 33/28/0". That's exactly what they're saying, you GOOGLED which talents you take just like now. There never was a choice and never will be unless you do nothing useful in the game and enjoy making your character worse.

And who gets to define what is and isn't "useful"?

[Ehuehuecopter]

Raid Leader ? Common Sense?

[tikcol]

No. Old talent system had choices because you couldn't get all of them, and some choices were better than others so you feel forced to copy the best builds.

I wonder when people will stop regurgitating this kind of misinformation. It's a double layer of wrong with a cherry on top

[Ehuehuecopter]

I wonder when people will stop regurgitating this kind of misinformation. It's a double layer of wrong with a cherry on top

We are on mmo c, so never.

[Linorm]

Depending on class, some choices were no choices at all (at least for a sane person).

For example, you had a choice to pick Improved Thorns - but somehow, most players I knew didn't.

(see here: http://web.archive.org/web/201208080...id=8&build=1.3 )

[Najnaj]

"LF Rogue for live Strat. Must have 3/3 improved sap. "

Did you ever see anything like that regarding the artifact?

- - - Updated - - -

Depending on class, some choices were no choices at all (at least for a sane person).

For example, you had a choice to pick Improved Thorns - but somehow, most players I knew didn't.

(see here: http://web.archive.org/web/201208080...id=8&build=1.3 )

Haha, the entire balance tree is just priceless. "Improved damage with melee weapons."!!!!

[Snuffleupagus]

If you were building a hybrid spec you were doing it wrong. At most you could have four or five extra points to stick into the flat stat increases in the other trees when you were done filling out your internet-optimal main talent tree.

For a while there, hybrid DK was the top DPS spec in the game, so no, you weren't doing it wrong.

[Linorm]

Haha, the entire balance tree is just priceless. "Improved damage with melee weapons."!!!!

Hey, if you somehow obtained Sulfuras then this was some serious Damage increase

[Deleted]

Hey, if you somehow obtained Sulfuras then this was some serious Damage increase

I bet Retrodruid had that talent.
Google it if you don't know who that was.

[-Annomander-]

As a player who played during BC, Wrath and then Cata (when they first started to lean out the talents system), I can say this...

Not once did I encounter players outside the realm of PvP who chose the EXACT same talents as another player of the same spec during BC and Wrath. Which is now commonplace in the game.

People did have a choice, because unlike the system right now there were always talent points which could be invested in utility, survivability or other trees for hybrid speccing (even if only minor).

It was only once the trees were gutted for cataclysm that the "cookie cutter builds" appeared. The new system is far worse, far less interesting, far less fun. One benefit it did however bring was the concept that some abilities should be baseline for certain specs, and shouldn't be "talents".

I just remember the good old days when Titan's Grip and Shockwave were deep in the fury and prot trees... Good times man.

[Nerovar]

Artifacts is color by numbers locked behind a grind.

[Lochton]

Back In the Vanilla days they had a bloated talent system with just percent increases... isn't that what this is?

Close to, yes. Except, in the end you'll have them all filled out on the artifact but you are right in a way.

- - - Updated - - -

Artifacts is color by numbers locked behind a grind.

So was the old talent trees. Cookie cutters don't die. The difference is, artifacts can be completed, while the old talent tree would always see points within the other speccs.

[Nerovar]

So was the old talent trees. Cookie cutters don't die. The difference is, artifacts can be completed, while the old talent tree would always see points within the other speccs.

Artifacts are a time sink. Nothing more and nothing less. It's there so players feel the need to invest time into the game. There's simply no choice involved (maybe except for what weapon you'll max out first). Also not everyone used cookie-cutter builds. Sure, there were certain builds that were arguably best for certain situations/environments but that shouldn't be a reason for removing actual choices from the game. If some people want to use builds they've found on the internet... fine. But you don't need to ruin the fun for everyone else (btw. there are still cookie-cutter builds for talents but there are simply less talents). Using your logic you could just as well remove secondary stats because people will always go for certain cookie-cutter stat priorities.

Edit: I'd also like to mention that I don't dislike the talent system they've introduced with MoP. I'd just like to have both trees at once (e.g. one for active and one for passive abilities)

[Kaleredar]

For a while there, hybrid DK was the top DPS spec in the game, so no, you weren't doing it wrong.

Maybe when they were busted as hell when they first came out. But that certainly didn't last. And regardless, it was something that there was a definitive right and wrong, google-able answer to. Illusion of choice no matter how you slice it.

[Racthoh]

no? there are no choices passed a certain point. its basically linear character progression at level cap.

there were pretty much no choices in the old talent system either so it isn't any different aside from the fact that instead of having all the talents when you hit max level you have to keep "leveling" and questing to collect them all.

[Kaleredar]

Artifacts are a time sink. Nothing more and nothing less. It's there so players feel the need to invest time into the game. There's simply no choice involved (maybe except for what weapon you'll max out first).

It's constant character progression.

Also not everyone used cookie-cutter builds. Sure, there were certain builds that were arguably best for certain situations/environments but that shouldn't be a reason for removing actual choices from the game.

There were two types of players back then. People that used cookie cutter builds, and people that didn't know how to google cookie cutter builds.

If some people want to use builds they've found on the internet... fine. But you don't need to ruin the fun for everyone else (btw. there are still cookie-cutter builds for talents but there are simply less talents).

For the most part, the talents are far more viable across the tiers in a myriad of situations. And you'll be hurt far less in the DPS category for selecting the "not-.1% increase-DPS-optimal" talent in modern talent trees than you would have been if you had taken the '+pet run speed' instead of the '+crit damage' as a hunter back in the day.

Using your logic you could just as well remove secondary stats because people will always go for certain cookie-cutter stat priorities.

Things like warforging/titanforging, gem slots and the nature of having to make the decision to trade off secondary stats for primary stats makes that a much harder thing to simply "follow." There was no RNG with what talents you got; there IS RNG with what gear you get.