1. #2481
    Deleted
    I just rerolled from Guardian to Brewmaster, mostly because I find Brew more interesting to play. (Partly because the tank comp is nicer that way.) I feel that the Guardian gameplay is pretty bland since they added the new traits and the removal of MoU didn't make it any better.

    Monk is quite enjoyable so far and I haven't regretted the decision for a second. On the other hand, nobody can tell you what will be fun for you.

  2. #2482
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggon View Post
    Is there anyone here who plays both gurdian and brew? How are they fun wise compared to each other? Can't choose
    I have three really well geared tanks: prot warrior, bear and monk.

    Already posted this here, but I'll repeat. In terms of actual fun I would rate them like that: Warrior > Monk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bear

  3. #2483
    The only tank class I don't have at 110 is warrior. I play all of the others casually... up to M+ 10 so you know where I'm coming from

    From a fun perspective I'd rate the others like this: Monk > DK > Pally > Bear > DH

    Difficulty wise, it would take effort to play Bear "wrong". Mangle > Thrash > Swipe... hit the highest priority one, and if you're actively tanking pop Ironbark to maintain the buff.

    Monk on the other hand has much more to monitor and track, while also having an optimal rotation that is easy to screw up.

    If you want to hit the ground running, hit 4 buttons and be a well performing fat meatshield, play bear. If you want to play the best class, play monk

    I rerolled from Guardian to Brewmaster in mid MoP, I don't regret it at all.

  4. #2484
    Deleted
    Even though I disagree with almost everything you said about how to play a bear, I can see that you can do M +10 that way without being too much of a hindrance to your group if your gear is ok.

    Skill floor wise, bear is probably the easiest of all the tanks by far. It is incredibly forgiving. This isn't actually a bad thing though. It allows you as someone who rerolled to it, to just pick it up and get into playing it no problem. My gripe with the changes since 7.1.5 is that they have steadily removed the skill ceiling from bears with the changes to talents and the addition of the new traits. A decently high skill ceiling is (for me) necessary to enjoy a class long term, because otherwise I feel stuck and like I can't do anything to get better anymore, even though the latter one is probably never literally true.

    The design of the Monk is a lot less intuitive and Stagger is something, that just changes the way you think about taking damage. This massively raises the skill floor, because you have to be kinda used to the design before you can actually tank in difficult circumstances without being a burden on your healer. The situational nature of your defensive abilities makes you approach every fight a little bit differently and I currently enjoy that a lot. The dps rotation is a lot more rigid as you have no procs and if you just use keg smash on CD and fill the GCD's in between you are kinda/sorta fine.

  5. #2485
    Bloodsail Admiral keqe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greif9 View Post
    Even though I disagree with almost everything you said about how to play a bear, I can see that you can do M +10 that way without being too much of a hindrance to your group if your gear is ok.

    Skill floor wise, bear is probably the easiest of all the tanks by far. It is incredibly forgiving. This isn't actually a bad thing though. It allows you as someone who rerolled to it, to just pick it up and get into playing it no problem. My gripe with the changes since 7.1.5 is that they have steadily removed the skill ceiling from bears with the changes to talents and the addition of the new traits. A decently high skill ceiling is (for me) necessary to enjoy a class long term, because otherwise I feel stuck and like I can't do anything to get better anymore, even though the latter one is probably never literally true.

    The design of the Monk is a lot less intuitive and Stagger is something, that just changes the way you think about taking damage. This massively raises the skill floor, because you have to be kinda used to the design before you can actually tank in difficult circumstances without being a burden on your healer. The situational nature of your defensive abilities makes you approach every fight a little bit differently and I currently enjoy that a lot. The dps rotation is a lot more rigid as you have no procs and if you just use keg smash on CD and fill the GCD's in between you are kinda/sorta fine.
    I feel, in raids at least, monk is one of the most forgiving tanks by far. A bad monk is a burden to healers. That is true. But a bad paladin is just dead. Stagger allows you to make stupid mistakes and (partly) fix them after. Many others just die from the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    For everything else, there's Brewmastercard

  6. #2486
    Deleted
    I currently can't compare to a paladin, since the last time I tanked with one was in HFC (fuck that class trinket) and I haven't maxed mine yet.

    And yeah, you can probably put a monk down as "don't let your AM drop and you'll be fine" for raids.

  7. #2487
    Quote Originally Posted by keqe View Post
    I feel, in raids at least, monk is one of the most forgiving tanks by far. A bad monk is a burden to healers. That is true. But a bad paladin is just dead. Stagger allows you to make stupid mistakes and (partly) fix them after. Many others just die from the same.
    This. I absolutely agree with all above stated.

    As a monk you don't need to prepare for damage spikes at all besides normal brew pooling. On other tanks you actually need to know what will happen next to use your cooldowns and it is actually a big skill ceiling.

    On the other hand bear works kinda middle ground between monk and other tanks. You still have million of cooldowns to press, but you're still not going to die if you don't press anything.

    The worst part about monk tanking is that you will never feel strong and overgeared. Everything you do is kinda %-based. Yes, it works wonders against super ultra high damage spikes, but at the same time you feel like you rely on healers even in lowest mythics while other tanks like DH or DK can almost kill the boss even without healers in raid. This thing is slightly discouraging to me personally, I like the feeling of progressing.

    For someone looking to try tanking class I would suggest trying prot warrior. I just love how everything works properly in it and how adjustable it is.
    Last edited by ReD-EyeD; 2017-07-21 at 01:47 PM.

  8. #2488
    Once you get 4pc t20 you can solo things a bit more. We're still not on the level of other tanks, but healerless runs are much easier. I've done a handful of +2 to +5 keys recently as a couple guildies just hit 110 on their alts, and the low level keys are much easier than before.

  9. #2489
    Deleted
    That has always been the case with mitigating vs. self healing tanks. I still remember vividly the discussion from last expac about "Blood DK OP - Doesn't even need healing!!!!!!". I prefer mitigating tanks because they usually do better in worse gear and against things hitting hard.

    I think that you don't really have to prepare for damage spikes is exactly how a monk should be. I mean, you don't even have all that many options to prepare for it anyway. Having ISB up is pretty much a requirement anyway and that leaves you with 2 to 3 CD's, Fort Brew on ~3min is nice but probably not that great compared to CD's of similar length. Zen Med is really situational and Dampen is a talent that you won't even have if the spike damage is magical (unless you run SotGM).

    They are designed around the idea of smoothing out damage and that becomes more and more overpowered the spikier the content gets. On the other hand we have not the best ways of overall mitigation, which may or may not be an issue overall. Fights with very high persistent damage should still be a real weakness for the spec. And fights where you get abandoned by your healers from time to time are terribly annoying for both monks and druids.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakiri View Post
    Once you get 4pc t20 you can solo things a bit more. We're still not on the level of other tanks, but healerless runs are much easier. I've done a handful of +2 to +5 keys recently as a couple guildies just hit 110 on their alts, and the low level keys are much easier than before.
    I still have no 4pc, but the self heal from 2pc feels really nice.

  10. #2490
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakiri View Post
    Once you get 4pc t20 you can solo things a bit more.
    I have 4pc t20 for a long time already and it's not even close to other tanks. It's just slightly better than before.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Greif9 View Post
    That has always been the case with mitigating vs. self healing tanks. I still remember vividly the discussion from last expac about "Blood DK OP - Doesn't even need healing!!!!!!". I prefer mitigating tanks because they usually do better in worse gear and against things hitting hard.
    The thing is DKs are BOTH mitigating AND healing tanks right now. They even have more hp than a bear with proper build.

  11. #2491
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    The thing is DKs are BOTH mitigating AND healing tanks right now. They even have more hp than a bear with proper build.
    Yeah, that is why I stated last expac. They were hilarious to play in overgeared content and M Tyrant still kicked your teeth in if you weren't careful during farm.

  12. #2492
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    I have 4pc t20 for a long time already and it's not even close to other tanks. It's just slightly better than before.
    Except now you have a nearly idiot-proof means to stay above, or return to higher, 35% hp whether in solo or raid content.

  13. #2493
    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    Except now you have a nearly idiot-proof means to stay above, or return to higher, 35% hp whether in solo or raid content.
    Yes, pretty much.

  14. #2494
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    The thing is DKs are BOTH mitigating AND healing tanks right now. They even have more hp than a bear with proper build.
    You don't understand the word Mitigation.

    DKs are big damage sponges that do a lot of self healing. Their mitigation is nearly non existent. HPS and Health Pool does not magically give you mitigation. You take away either of these things Blood is good at and the spec immediately breaks and is worse then prot pal.

  15. #2495
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    You don't understand the word Mitigation.

    DKs are big damage sponges that do a lot of self healing. Their mitigation is nearly non existent. HPS and Health Pool does not magically give you mitigation. You take away either of these things Blood is good at and the spec immediately breaks and is worse then prot pal.
    I understand it, don't worry. Yes, they're far from the warrior level of mitigation, but considering their high armor, bone shield (which also works on magic) and other stuff they mitigate A LOT. If they were just sponges then they wouldn't recieve almost as much damage during the fight as other tanks.

  16. #2496
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    I understand it, don't worry. Yes, they're far from the warrior level of mitigation, but considering their high armor, bone shield (which also works on magic) and other stuff they mitigate A LOT. If they were just sponges then they wouldn't recieve almost as much damage during the fight as other tanks.
    What the hell are you talking about? Blood takes a hell of a lot of damage. They just have a huge HP pool to soak it, and self healing that scales with damage taken. Their mitigation is far below not only War, but literally every tank spec in terms of mitigation. Go look at the DTPS in logs and get back to me. Their healing literally makes them take a lot of damage as it scales with the damage taken. Their mitigation is laughable, they have about the same base armor as a VDH and bone shield is 16-22%. Other tanks literally have AMs that are upwards of 40%, have passives that are in the range of 10-20% or in the case of druid literally have ass loads of armor.

    This is why "mitigation" means jack shit. Blood is literally the worst "mitigation" tank in the game but still a top 3 tank easily. Monks who like to sit at high stagger a lot are also really bad at "mitigation" but still great raid tanks.

  17. #2497
    Here is our last Kiljaeden

    And I would argue about absorb being not a mitigation mechanic. By my logic damage that is not needed to be healed (by all means, armor, skills, absorb etc) is mitigated damage.

  18. #2498
    Imagine if BRM still had 95% physical stagger and no isb cap. It would probably be more broken than guardian was in NH.
    Last edited by dirtybrew; 2017-07-22 at 01:47 PM.

  19. #2499
    I last raid tanked in MoP as brewmaster. I admit it was kind of OP, especially with Guard.

    Came back to Legion, tried tanking with DH. While mobile, it felt squishy during EN. I hence changed my main to a bear. Haven't looked back since.

    However, I still try to keep my brewmaster within 10 ilevels of my main bear.

    In any case, bear is of course way easier to play compared to brewmaster now. However the monk feels more versatile, and hence more satisfying to play. Of course it is also a lot more mobile than the bear.

  20. #2500
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    By my logic damage that is not needed to be healed (by all means, armor, skills, absorb etc) is mitigated damage.
    "By my logic I try to make up my own definitions of words".

    Sure thing.

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