Possible future hero classes.

[Hitei]

Yet i could get Garrosh's shoulders, Gorehowl, The Twin Blades of Azzinoth, Visage of Sageras, etc...

You mean the items obtained from their wielders being enemies who died?

Is Gelbin an enemy who died?

[Teriz]

Considering the non-stop mental gemnastics and goal post moving that goes into every one of your posts, you are probably the last person that should ever type the word "honest" and hit submit.

unless it isn't Tinker in which case even a single ability that has some contrived connection is a very serious reason why a class shouldn't exist!

So are you also going to pretend that shouts and other voice-based abilities aren't part of the Bard trope?

You mean the current ""real"" point because you've had to move the goal posts clear out of the stadium at this point from being proven wrong on so many accounts. But that's funny, because I don't recall any existing wow class playing a musical instrument to use sound magic to do anything

Except you don't need to use an instrument to make a sound or music. A singing Bard is just as common a trope as a Bard playing a flute or guitar.

You mean like a Necromancer? You are just one big hypocritical mess.

The Necromancer is tied down for a different reason: Death Knights handle their entire concept, and does everything a Necromancer could do. Necromancer proponents simply don't like how the DK utilizes the Necromancer theme.

Where's the hypocrisy?

[ItachiZaku]

I've warmed up to the idea of a tinker class, but I don't want a race restriction, or be limited to only goblin. I want Tauren for everything.

[Teriz]

You mean the items obtained from their wielders being enemies who died?

Is Gelbin an enemy who died?

No, but we can currently obtain his mechanostrider. I don't see why obtaining his suit (not his personal armor) would be any different.

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That is an interesting point. The "Rise of the Naga Empire" leak did say that the rumored Tinker class would be using Gnomish war frames. We got a repainted Skygolem, and now a Lightforged Golem, but Mekkatorque's mech suit is unavailable. If you look at the model, its prime mount material:

Things that make you go hmmm.......

Those were my thoughts as well. I suppose we'll find out soon enough, one way or another.

[Directionalk9]

Death Knights =/= Necromancer, armor type and combat style are completely different. There are plenty of avenues in the realm of undead Magic to draw upon to allow them to play differently than other casters and pet classes.

Yet i could get Garrosh's shoulders, Gorehowl, The Twin Blades of Azzinoth, Visage of Sageras, etc... - Teriz

So Gelbin's mech is a boss drop. Proving my BS point that mechs are mounts and not Tinker only, or an item a handful of classes could jump into and do abilities.

I have yet to see an a good a reason against Bard. Ielenia and Hitei have presented more than enough proof of concept for a Bard's class mechanics.

I've warmed up to the idea of a tinker class, but I don't want a race restriction, or be limited to only goblin. I want Tauren for everything.

Only Teriz is tied to Goblin/Gnome as Tinker only. There is too much in-game lore to support Draenei, Blood Elf, Dwarf, and Orc Tinkers. Practically impossible to add Tinker and not have it be those six races... It would be akin to adding DH to only Blood Elf. Especially when talking about Draenei and seeing what they have in 7.3.

Sadly I feel like Tauren Tinkers aren't much of a possibility. While they can be Engineers, culturally they prefer the more natural elements of the world.

[Teriz]

I have to agree. I think a profession where everyone can pick a instrument and make music would be really neat. Like in LotROnline where you could even play real songst with an addon or by yourself. I would prefer that too

Yeah, making the Bard into a profession simply makes more sense. WoW isn't really capable to support a mostly support class like the Bard. A Bard sitting on top of Goldshire playing a lute that gives everyone petty buffs in a 40 yard range? Sure! A Bard in the middle of a firefight with demons everywhere strumming a tune off of his banjo?

Yeah, just doesn't seem right.

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Death Knights =/= Necromancer, armor type and combat style are completely different. There are plenty of avenues in the realm of undead Magic to draw upon to allow them to play differently than other casters and pet classes.

The core of the Necromancer concept is raising and controlling undead minions. Death Knights already do that. As has been stated numerous times, Blizzard incorporated the Necromancer into the Death Knight hero class.

So Gelbin's mech is a boss drop. Proving my BS point that mechs are mounts and not Tinker only, or an item a handful of classes could jump into and do abilities.

Except you can't do any abilities in a mount. Additionally, mounts aren't really lore-based, they're vanity items for the player.

I have yet to see an a good a reason against Bard. Ielenia and Hitei have presented more than enough proof of concept for a Bard's class mechanics.

The Bard's "proof of concept" and "class mechanics" reside in existing WoW classes, and have resided there since Vanilla.

[Hitei]

No, but we can currently obtain his mechanostrider. I don't see why obtaining his suit (not his personal armor) would be any different.

No, you actually can't.


He uses a custom Swift Blue Mechanostrider that is not available to players.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=40057/mek...mechanostrider
http://www.warcraftmounts.com/mounts...anostrider.php

[Directionalk9]

The Bard's "proof of concept" and "class mechanics" reside in existing WoW classes, and have resided there since Vanilla.

So have Tinkers, so.... Your class can be fan-added, but others cant?

The core of the Necromancer concept is raising and controlling undead minions. Death Knights already do that. As has been stated numerous times, Blizzard incorporated the Necromancer into the Death Knight hero class.

The core concept of the Paladin is using the light to aid allies in combat, going to have to get rid of Priests.

[Ielenia]

song
sôNG/Submit
noun
singing or vocal music.

Seriously, are you being this obtuse on purpose? It's beyond obvious to anyone with an IQ higher than a single digit that when we say "song and music" we mean "vocal and instrumental".

So would that mean that Priests and Warriors are also following the common Bard fantasy trope? After all, those Bards you mention are using their abilities.

Look, Stu. Priests have one single spell that you can really make it a case that belongs to the Bard fantasy trope, which is the Divine Hymn spell because the player character is shown actually singing. The rest? Nope. Spells with 'Word' in their name that the Priest casts do not belong to the repertoire of the Bard because those spells are not sung. Neither are shouts, because the fantasy trope is about music, not raging screams.

Except in this case, the difference is on the same level as a profession versus a class. A profession isn't comparable to a class because they are fundamentally different things. It's on the same level as say, The Hunter's Dragonsfire Grenade versus any Engineering grenade. Dragonsfire Grenade requires no crafting, has a low cooldown, does scalable damage, etc. It's superior to every engineering grenade on multiple levels, and engineers can't even build it.

Yet we're supposed to believe that a profession engineer is the same as Gazlowe or Gelbin Mekkatorque when they can't even build a grenade equal to a Hunter?

El oh El.

The only laughable matter here in this case is how you keep conflating 'gameplay' and 'lore' almost to the point where you could use them interchangeably. You're basically saying that if Rexxar wanted to throw a dragonsfire grenade, all he needs to do is to reach his hand into an empty pocket, and a dragonsfire grenade will magically appear in his pocket. And that is what really is "El oh El"-worthy.

Yes it does.

So now you ignore the argument and try to start a childish game of 'uh-huh'/'nuh-uh'?

See above.

Yes, I read your admittance of defeat in the paragraph above.

Wedding Hymn is simply a combination of Divine Hymn and Hymn of Hope. Like I said, a modified Priest spell.

And that is relevant... how? Hymn of Hope is no more, by the way. Saying "it's a modified Priest spell" is meaningless. Because you can look at the Druid's Regrowth spell and say "It's simply a combination of the Priest's Heal and Renew spells, with its element changed to nature. Like I said, a modified Priest spell". Like I said: a meaningless argument.

It's a song that puts a target to sleep. The Monk ability "Song of Chi-Ji" does the exact same thing. The Monk song is actually superior because its an AoE.

Funny how ability names no longer matter to you now that you are on the other side of the argument. We can also argue that the Monk spell is actually inferior because the mists move forward too slowly, giving enemies plenty of times to get away from it, whereas Lullaby requires a target who cannot avoid it by simply moving left or right. Regardless, point still stands: no class has a "lullaby" spell.

I think you're missing the point here: Why are shout abilities consistently being paired with singing/song abilities in WoW? I know the answer, and I'm hoping you're honest enough to simply admit it.

"Consistently"? You have just one Bard where that actually happens, which is Hearthsinger Forresten, and that is because he's a Vanilla character!

Well the only other alternative would be that Blizzard doesn't think they're fitting for a Bard character.

It's not a dichotomy. The only reason you claim those are the "only two options" is because those are the only ones that fit your agenda.

I do believe that the real point is that everything and anything available to the "Bard" ability-wise in WoW is already present in existing WoW classes.

False. At best, you have two spells split evenly between two classes.

Every new WoW class has had roots and abilities from WC3. Those abilities form the basis of the class.

The Bard has none of that.

Can I have a Blizzard citation that new classes concepts must have roots and/or abilities from WC3 to be considered viable to become a class in WoW? What's that? You don't have one? Oh, so this is one of your "because I, Teriz, say so" moments? So what you wrote is completely bollocks? Ok. Gotcha.

[Teriz]

No, you actually can't.


He uses a custom Swift Blue Mechanostrider that is not available to players.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=40057/mek...mechanostrider
http://www.warcraftmounts.com/mounts...anostrider.php

It's the same model. Color isn't a big deal.

[Kagdar]

@Ielenia seriously you should just do like a lot of players in this very thread and stop replying to Teriz. There's plenty of people already who proved him being dishonest, to lie every couple of posts, not read what we type, having countless double standards and just repeating the same stuff over and over even though we proved him wrong.

The less people reply at Teriz the better chances are he will maybe someday have an introspection and become a better human being.

[Teriz]

So have Tinkers, so.... Your class can be fan-added, but others can't?

Where?

The core concept of the Paladin is using the light to aid allies in combat, going to have to get rid of Priests.

The core concept of Priests are balancing the light and the darkness.

That is a very different concept than the Paladin, who are warriors who only use the light to fight with.

- - - Updated - - -

Seriously, are you being this obtuse on purpose? It's beyond obvious to anyone with an IQ higher than a single digit that when we say "song and music" we mean "vocal and instrumental".

So vocal music isn't singing?

Look, Stu. Priests have one single spell that you can really make it a case that belongs to the Bard fantasy trope, which is the Divine Hymn spell because the player character is shown actually singing. The rest? Nope. Spells with 'Word' in their name that the Priest casts do not belong to the repertoire of the Bard because those spells are not sung. Neither are shouts, because the fantasy trope is about music, not raging screams.

In fantasy tropes, "Words" are part of the Bard trope. As are Screams. Essentially any point where the voice is used for magical purposes falls under the Bard trope.

The only laughable matter here in this case is how you keep conflating 'gameplay' and 'lore' almost to the point where you could use them interchangeably. You're basically saying that if Rexxar wanted to throw a dragonsfire grenade, all he needs to do is to reach his hand into an empty pocket, and a dragonsfire grenade will magically appear in his pocket. And that is what really is "El oh El"-worthy.

I don't pretend to know how Hunters obtained their grenades. What I do know is that the Hunter's grenade is far more powerful than any grenade in engineering. The power-level difference between the Dragonsfire grenade and any engineering grenade is the same power-level difference between the Sky Golem and Gazlowe's Shredder.

So now you ignore the argument and try to start a childish game of 'uh-huh'/'nuh-uh'?

There's no point arguing the obvious with someone who has a clear agenda.

And that is relevant... how? Hymn of Hope is no more, by the way. Saying "it's a modified Priest spell" is meaningless. Because you can look at the Druid's Regrowth spell and say "It's simply a combination of the Priest's Heal and Renew spells, with its element changed to nature. Like I said, a modified Priest spell". Like I said: a meaningless argument.

Because when Blizzard created "wedding hymn" they clearly used the two priest hymn spells as the model for it.

It's that simple.

Funny how ability names no longer matter to you now that you are on the other side of the argument. We can also argue that the Monk spell is actually inferior because the mists move forward too slowly, giving enemies plenty of times to get away from it, whereas Lullaby requires a target who cannot avoid it by simply moving left or right. Regardless, point still stands: no class has a "lullaby" spell.

No class has a music-based spell that puts enemies to sleep?

That's a false statement, because the Monk class does have such a spell.

"Consistently"? You have just one Bard where that actually happens, which is Hearthsinger Forresten, and that is because he's a Vanilla character!

We also have multiple Mantid NPCs who also have shout spells paired with song spells. Additionally we have examples outside of WoW which also pair shout abilities with song spells within the Bard trope. It would appear that "shout" is a very common ability within the Bard trope.

It's not a dichotomy. The only reason you claim those are the "only two options" is because those are the only ones that fit your agenda.

So either the abilities fit Hearthsinger Forrensten, or they don't fit Hearthsinger Forrensten. What's the third option?

False. At best, you have two spells split evenly between two classes.

Russell Broward has a modified Priest spell.
Hearthsinger Forrensten has a Warrior ability, Hunter abilities, and a song spell that puts enemies to sleep (Monks have a similar ability).

Let me know if I missed anything.

Can I have a Blizzard citation that new classes concepts must have roots and/or abilities from WC3 to be considered viable to become a class in WoW? What's that? You don't have one? Oh, so this is one of your "because I, Teriz, say so" moments? So what you wrote is completely bollocks? Ok. Gotcha.

Every new class has had pretty heavy roots in the RTS game. Blizzard could deviate from that tradition, but I seriously doubt they would.

I seriously doubt they would bring in a class whose only presence in Warcraft is a bunch of NPCs with Warrior, Priest, and Hunter abilities.

[Directionalk9]

@Ielenia seriously you should just do like a lot of players in this very thread and stop replying to Teriz. There's plenty of people already who proved him being dishonest, to lie every couple of posts, not read what we type, having countless double standards and just repeating the same stuff over and over even though we proved him wrong.

The less people reply at Teriz the better chances are he will maybe someday have an introspection and become a better human being.

I'm following your direction. He has yet to actually prove a point, and he's only concerned with pushing the one thing he wants.

[Thimagryn]

@Ielenia seriously you should just do like a lot of players in this very thread and stop replying to Teriz. There's plenty of people already who proved him being dishonest, to lie every couple of posts, not read what we type, having countless double standards and just repeating the same stuff over and over even though we proved him wrong.

The less people reply at Teriz the better chances are he will maybe someday have an introspection and become a better human being.

TBH what's going on between the two is a case of stubborness and unwillingness to accept either's ideas that a certain class would fit in WoW. Like someone already said, they aren't actually discussing possible hero ideas as much as poo-pooing on ideas they don't like. In truth, all classes are completely viable when all this thread should be about is future classes. It doesn't matter if it's going to happen or if it works, this is should be fun discussion. Even a Janitor class can be a fun and flavourful if Blizzard goes out of their way to make it so.

[thebigman154]

TBH what's going on between the two is a case of stubborness and unwillingness to accept either's ideas that a certain class would fit in WoW. Like someone already said, they aren't actually discussing possible hero ideas as much as poo-pooing on ideas they don't like. In truth, all classes are completely viable when all this thread should be about is future classes. It doesn't matter if it's going to happen or if it works, this is should be fun discussion. Even a Janitor class can be a fun and flavourful if Blizzard goes out of their way to make it so.

Really true if blizz wants to add a class they will

[Rhamses]

Only Teriz is tied to Goblin/Gnome as Tinker only. There is too much in-game lore to support Draenei, Blood Elf, Dwarf, and Orc Tinkers. Practically impossible to add Tinker and not have it be those six races... It would be akin to adding DH to only Blood Elf. Especially when talking about Draenei and seeing what they have in 7.3.

Sadly I feel like Tauren Tinkers aren't much of a possibility. While they can be Engineers, culturally they prefer the more natural elements of the world.

Actually, I'm pretty tied to Goblin/Gnome Tinkers as well. I think when you stretch the concept too far beyond those two races, you start getting into silly country. The fact that Draenei and Blood Elf tech is different than G/G tech doesn't help matters.

I know people will make the "Those are the two most unpopular races in the game" argument, but if you think about it, the concept of riding and fighting in a mech is a pretty popular concept as exhibited in this thread, and that concept works best with the two smallest races in the game who are technologically inclined, and on opposing factions.

[thebigman154]

Actually, I'm pretty tied to Goblin/Gnome Tinkers as well. I think when you stretch the concept too far beyond those two races, you start getting into silly country. The fact that Draenei and Blood Elf tech is different than G/G tech doesn't help matters.

you could say the same about tauren paladins and tauren priests

[Ielenia]

So vocal music isn't singing?

I'll repeat the question: are you being this obtuse on purpose?

In fantasy tropes, "Words" are part of the Bard trope. As are Screams.

No. You're talking about the Dungeons and Dragons Bard class, not the Bard fantasy trope.

I don't pretend to know how Hunters obtained their grenades.

Yet that is what you heavily imply in your previous post.

What I do know is that the Hunter's grenade is far more powerful than any grenade in engineering.

That is simply a gameplay distinction that does not exist in the lore. Evidence of that is that class abilities become stronger with your level, while items and abilities granted through external sources remain static at best, or have reduced effects.

The power-level difference between the Dragonsfire grenade and any engineering grenade is the same power-level difference between the Sky Golem and Gazlowe's Shredder.

Well, that's nothing but headcanon. I hope you are aware of that. Funny how once again your hypocrisy and double-standards show, as you criticize anyone who use 'headcanons', but have no problem affirming your own headcanons as fact.

There's no point arguing the obvious with someone who has a clear agenda.

We already know you have an agenda, Teriz. You've admitted it in the past, but it's nice to know you still admit it.

Because when Blizzard created "wedding hymn" they clearly used the two priest hymn spells as the model for it.

It's that simple.

"Clearly"? It's as "clear" as charcoal. Just because it has 'hymn' in the name doesn't immediately mean that it was made from Priest spells!

No class has a music-based spell that puts enemies to sleep?

That's a false statement, because the Monk class does have such a spell.

Show me it's an actual song, that it's actually music-based, and not just a name for the spell. Because it's not uncommon, in WoW, to have spells that don't do exactly what the name implies.

We also have multiple Mantid NPCs who also have shout spells paired with song spells.

Luckily we don't want a bard class based on the Mantid. And again, the Mantid were just used to show that song- and music-based spells are not something alien to WoW.

Additionally we have examples outside of WoW which also pair shout abilities with song spells within the Bard trope.

WoW is not "other games", and the DnD bard is not the quintessential bard concept. The DnD Bard having 'word' spells is completely irrelevant.

It would appear that "shout" is a very common ability within the Bard trope.

I repeat: the DnD Bard is not the quintessential bard concept. The trope says nothing about 'word' or 'shout' spells, only song and music.

Every new class has had pretty heavy roots in the RTS game. Blizzard could deviate from that tradition, but I seriously doubt they would.

Demon Hunters say 'hello'. Broke tradition by having only two specs. Broke tradition by "taking a major ability from an existing class". Not sure if you're noticed, Teriz, but Blizzard "deviates from tradition" nearly all the time.

I seriously doubt they would bring in a class whose only presence in Warcraft is a bunch of NPCs with Warrior, Priest, and Hunter abilities.

Death Knights say 'hello'... with their warrior and warlock abilities...

With this, I'm done entertaining your dishonesty. If you seriously cannot differentiate song and music from one-word spells and raging shouts, I'm surprised you still have the IQ to be able to type. In this thread, so far, you've shown nothing but dishonesty, double-standards, hypocrisy and bait-and-switch tactics.

[Directionalk9]

anyone wanna refocus the thread or suggest what races should be bards and necros...been a lot of discussion already on tinker, we could go there as well.

Personally Bard is a an all races option, necros probably less so...Taruren and Night Elf probably would say no to studying those dark arts, draenei might not be a fan.

Actually, I'm pretty tied to Goblin/Gnome Tinkers as well. I think when you stretch the concept too far beyond those two races, you start getting into silly country. The fact that Draenei and Blood Elf tech is different than G/G tech doesn't help matters.

I know people will make the "Those are the two most unpopular races in the game" argument, but if you think about it, the concept of riding and fighting in a mech is a pretty popular concept as exhibited in this thread, and that concept works best with the two smallest races in the game who are technologically inclined, and on opposing factions.

Just because it's slightly different doesn't mean it should restrict access. Forsaken are priests because of shadow spec, despite the lore saying they can't use Holy Magic. We didnt lock them outta two specs

[Bas Prime]

I personally love the idea of hero classes tied to races. Especially beacause there are some race-classes out there that I would like to see ingame. And since Blizz showed, that they are not bound to create 3 specs, they can bring more classes with two specs to have it easier. Not sure if a class would work with one spec, since then it could also be a 4th spec to antoher already existing class.