1. #37461
    We're playing a MMO, which in all their history have been the epitome of tedious repetitive content, if you get right down to it.

    FATEs have interesting potential. The Dataqi Chronicles FATE chain is rather cool in that you assist the Dataqi Xaela tribe with finding a new place to call home for a bit. It has some spots I would call "rough" in that there are lulls where you're stuck doing nothing and waiting for the NPCs to start moving for the next part of the chain. FATE chains like this were common in GW2 (compared to this game, at least). To dismiss FATEs entirely because of cancer-inducing uses of them, such as relic/anima weapons or that goddamn Yo-Kai event is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I say that as an owner of both weapon types (although the relic was post nerfs, animas were most all pre-nerf) as well as that glowing derpmobile mount.

    Even though I don't play the game anymore, GW2's event system and how that game handles things is much more fluid/organic than how FATEs work here. For example, you automatically level sync when in range of an event there, but that also ties in with another way that game handles content; you don't lose access/use of abilities when downsynced (which, in that game, makes perfect sense because you unlock about 80% of all your ability slots by the time you are level 10). That's two areas the FATE system (and older, lower level content in general, for that matter) could be handled better in FF14, imo. I mean...how many times as of late has anyone run leveling or 50-60 roulette only to find themselves going "gee, wish I had xyz ability right now". I do understand why the downsyncing works as it does in this game, though...I'd feel bad for new tanks trying to level up without their tank stance, for one example.
    Last edited by Kazgrel; 2017-07-21 at 04:56 PM. Reason: Phrasing/facts

  2. #37462
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    I do understand why the downsyncing works as it does in this game, though...I'd feel bad for new tanks trying to level up without their tank stance, for one example.
    You feel bad for new tanks, yet you want to give me my ultimate samurai technique when running low levels with them? Even with the strength downgraded, that's just cruel!

  3. #37463
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    You feel bad for new tanks, yet you want to give me my ultimate samurai technique when running low levels with them? Even with the strength downgraded, that's just cruel!
    Bad phrasing on my part, perhaps, but I meant that I would feel bad for new tanks were they paired with, as you noted, a SAM with it's full repertoire, or the likes of me, a BLM with Foul and Fire 4. Even with it somewhat downscaled...yeah, you and I would likely be the tanks in those situations. Although maybe I'm being far too dismissive of the massive aoe threat buffs all tanks got in 4.01 (or another recent patch...it was after SB launch I Know).

  4. #37464
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    You feel bad for new tanks, yet you want to give me my ultimate samurai technique when running low levels with them? Even with the strength downgraded, that's just cruel!
    SW:ToR does that; just syncs your level down, but you still retain all of your abilities with their damage scaled down of course. It's pretty awesome, but it makes some lower level stuff feel like a joke because with all those extra abilities you're still putting out WAAAY more damage, healing and/or damage mitigation than is intended.

    I mean imagine running Sastasha with a Summoner that has access to Bane, Fester, Painflare and Deathflare, a White Mage with access to Medica 2, Assize and Holy, a Dark Knight with access to Abyssal Drain, Quietus (AoE damage move), Salted Earth AND Blackest Night alongside a Black Mage with access to Enochian, Fire/Blizzard 3 and 4, Flare and Foul.... it would be massacre...but man...that would be so fun to do on roulettes.

  5. #37465
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    SW:ToR does that; just syncs your level down, but you still retain all of your abilities with their damage scaled down of course. It's pretty awesome, but it makes some lower level stuff feel like a joke because with all those extra abilities you're still putting out WAAAY more damage, healing and/or damage mitigation than is intended.

    I mean imagine running Sastasha with a Summoner that has access to Bane, Fester, Painflare and Deathflare, a White Mage with access to Medica 2, Assize and Holy, a Dark Knight with access to Abyssal Drain, Quietus (AoE damage move), Salted Earth AND Blackest Night alongside a Black Mage with access to Enochian, Fire/Blizzard 3 and 4, Flare and Foul.... it would be massacre...but man...that would be so fun to do on roulettes.
    For my FC group I've been running roulettes with as of late, such a thing would be the dream. It's mind boggling and mildly infuriating for the 4 of us (all of which are on level 60+ jobs) to get Toto-rak, Braflox, Sastasha, etc., as a leveling roulette. Then again, on a whim, I decided I would run AST for us on leveling roulette last night, having not played said job in over a year...and we get Ifrit normal. So much for re-learning how to play a job...I didn't even have access to cards!

  6. #37466
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    After the maybe second job to max, you've exhausted all the side quests. After which, the ONLY methods of leveling the rest of the jobs are the super grindy methods like FATEs (which nobody does), PotD (which is the worst option from 60-70), PvP (which was nerfed so is usually not worth it unless you really like PvP, which I don't), Dungeon grinding (which is really only viable on tanks and healers with low queue times) and Roulettes (which are only worthwhile once a day). Therefore, unless you're just a masochist, leaves roulettes as the only viable option for most folks. Doing the Trial, Leveling, and 50/60 Roulette gives ~50% of a level depending on what level you are (more if you're lower, less if you're higher) so at best it takes two days of roulettes to gain a single level or ~20 days to go from 60-70 using just rouletes. Which is pretty insane...and that's with the armory bonus.
    So I disagree. I have a bit more experience leveling than you, which prolly makes me a masochist, but Doing hunts, (I do both HW/SB daily hunts), MSQ, 50/60, leveling and trial is a full level. It take all told about 2 hours and I was going to do most of those anyway. MSq roulettes goes from 1million to 2 million XP between 61-70 so thats just under 20% of a level by itself, same with SB hunts, they scale so in the end, there 1.5 to 2 mil. that might be the missing link in your equation. As I only have 6 classes left I hope this info helps you. Also I grind dungeons on odd levels cause my desynth is up and it makes me a fortune.

  7. #37467
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    We're playing a MMO, which in all their history have been the epitome of tedious repetitive content, if you get right down to it.
    While true for MMORPG's, it's not always been the case for MMO's in general. Planetside 2 for example starts you off with most of what you need to be successful, and by the time you leave Newbee Island you'll have enough Certs, the in game currency, to buy what you need. I left Newbee Island with a pimped out Prowler I couldn't wait to try out. You'll also acquire plenty more Certs just from playing the game, it happens more or less in the background rather than being a specific goal in and of itself. PS2 also has more than enough players with this model to make the game interesting enough for a PvP exclusive title, so the lack of repetative grind isn't something you miss.

    It begs the question - Would FF14 lose much if they shifted their leveling gameplay models towards less grinding? Consider the following
    • You do not have access to your job defining abilities for at least 50 levels, usually 60 and in most cases even level 70. The end result is that you need to invest a lot of time into a job before you can really decide if it's something you'll enjoy.
    • Being downleveled for roulettes absolutely sucks because of this.
    • Most of the habits you learn while leveling need to be broken later on when you do have access to all your skills.
    • When it comes to leveling up secondary jobs, you've already done the content at least once before.
    • Most of the new content is for max level players, requiring new players to invest in the game before they really get to experience the same game as everyone else.
    • There are plenty of other things in game that are suitable grinding goals other than leveling.

    Personally, I think the game as a whole would benefit from leveling being a much less tedious and time consuming affair all round but I'd be interested in hearing what other people have to say on the matter.

  8. #37468
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Personally, I think the game as a whole would benefit from leveling being a much less tedious and time consuming affair all round but I'd be interested in hearing what other people have to say on the matter.
    Alright, let's think about this.

    You buy Stormblood. It's been 1 week. You're 70 on every job.

    What do you expect to do now?

  9. #37469
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Alright, let's think about this.

    You buy Stormblood. It's been 1 week. You're 70 on every job.

    What do you expect to do now?
    Could start by asking this person.

  10. #37470
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Alright, let's think about this.

    You buy Stormblood. It's been 1 week. You're 70 on every job.

    What do you expect to do now?
    Go back to work, maybe spend some time outside with the friends and family you've spent the last week ignoring?

    Jokes aside, there are plenty of other grinds you can add at 70. Anima weapons were a long term grind, and being repeatable for every job means if you're going for one for each of your jobs it'll keep you busy for a long time. Then there's just straight forward gear grinds, rep grinds, Mount grinds (or RNG, if you get lucky enough). Just simple end game raiding and dungeon content, collecting pets and whatever it is you'd do at max level normally in an MMO.

    Getting TO 70 doesn't need to be much of a grind when there are lots of them on offer AT 70. If the game was designed around the idea you could get to max level on multiple jobs rapidly, then there would obviously be more grindy level 70 content there than there currently is. I was trying to get opinions on this kind of model rather than just making leveling super fast with the current end game.

  11. #37471
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    While true for MMORPG's, it's not always been the case for MMO's in general. Planetside 2 for example starts you off with most of what you need to be successful, and by the time you leave Newbee Island you'll have enough Certs, the in game currency, to buy what you need. I left Newbee Island with a pimped out Prowler I couldn't wait to try out. You'll also acquire plenty more Certs just from playing the game, it happens more or less in the background rather than being a specific goal in and of itself. PS2 also has more than enough players with this model to make the game interesting enough for a PvP exclusive title, so the lack of repetative grind isn't something you miss.

    It begs the question - Would FF14 lose much if they shifted their leveling gameplay models towards less grinding? Consider the following
    • You do not have access to your job defining abilities for at least 50 levels, usually 60 and in most cases even level 70. The end result is that you need to invest a lot of time into a job before you can really decide if it's something you'll enjoy.
    • Being downleveled for roulettes absolutely sucks because of this.
    • Most of the habits you learn while leveling need to be broken later on when you do have access to all your skills.
    • When it comes to leveling up secondary jobs, you've already done the content at least once before.
    • Most of the new content is for max level players, requiring new players to invest in the game before they really get to experience the same game as everyone else.
    • There are plenty of other things in game that are suitable grinding goals other than leveling.

    Personally, I think the game as a whole would benefit from leveling being a much less tedious and time consuming affair all round but I'd be interested in hearing what other people have to say on the matter.
    I made a brief foray into PS2, but that scale of FPS wasn't my cup of tea...which is strange, considering that in WoW and GW2, I preferred the larger scale stuff (OG AV, Wintergrasp, WvW). I'd rather the FPS action be in a smaller arena.

    With the bullet list, there is no denying that this game is painfully slow to dole out the really good parts of most job's toolkits. They've stated over the years that the idea is to bring in people that are completely new to the MMORPG genre. Whether or not a pile of such people still exist (that would even be interested in the genre to begin with) is another matter. At the risk of going game vs. game, I'll use our favorite example: WoW classes don't fully open up until later level, either, but the really good core parts of each class show up very early on for the most part. Warrior tanks got defensive stance at level 10 (at least last they played, they did), druids got bear form at 10, paladins devotion aura around the same time...although they needed that + threat thing that I can't remember the name of, but it, too, was early on. Most classes get some aoe attacks early on, as well as basic stuns/CC (poly, HoJ, etc.). Simply put, the pacing of skill acquisition is much better.

    Leveling other classes in other games ends up being the same sort of slog it is here (dungeon spam, same quests that had been done before, same events, etc.), only in those, you have other elements that are also reset aside from your level (reputations, quest completions, among others). Other games (not just WoW) simply get you the good stuff skill-wise much faster.

  12. #37472
    Quote Originally Posted by Sgtkreoss View Post
    So I disagree. I have a bit more experience leveling than you, which prolly makes me a masochist, but Doing hunts, (I do both HW/SB daily hunts), MSQ, 50/60, leveling and trial is a full level. It take all told about 2 hours and I was going to do most of those anyway. MSq roulettes goes from 1million to 2 million XP between 61-70 so thats just under 20% of a level by itself, same with SB hunts, they scale so in the end, there 1.5 to 2 mil. that might be the missing link in your equation. As I only have 6 classes left I hope this info helps you. Also I grind dungeons on odd levels cause my desynth is up and it makes me a fortune.
    I'm specifically talking 6o-70 only, I have all jobs at 60 except DoL/DoH. I was unaware of how well Hunts scaled or just how much xp MSQ roulete gives, but I usually avoid MSQ roulette because of how long both Castrum Merdianum and Praetorium can take. I may change this to break up the monotony...but honestly, I played at 2.0 launch and I spammed both of these when farming for tomes then and I don't think I'll ever NOT be sick of them because I've done both of those dungeons literally hundreds, if not thousands, of times.

    Thanks for the info, I'll look into it.

  13. #37473
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm specifically talking 6o-70 only, I have all jobs at 60 except DoL/DoH. I was unaware of how well Hunts scaled or just how much xp MSQ roulete gives, but I usually avoid MSQ roulette because of how long both Castrum Merdianum and Praetorium can take. I may change this to break up the monotony...but honestly, I played at 2.0 launch and I spammed both of these when farming for tomes then and I don't think I'll ever NOT be sick of them because I've done both of those dungeons literally hundreds, if not thousands, of times.

    Thanks for the info, I'll look into it.
    FYI, both MSQ take less than an EX. I want to say under 10 minutes, easy.

  14. #37474
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The point is you don't like it so you say it's not content. You have specific, objective reasons for not liking it....but it still boils down to you disregarding it as content simply because you don't like it. And many of the reason you stated in why you don't like them also apply to things YOU call content.
    Keep in mind when I say something isn't content. I don't mean it isn't content in general. I mean it isn't to me. I stated why I believe that and cited examples. I'm not sitting here arguing the semantics of the definition of content or whether my opinion matches xyz. If you disagree with my examples by all means feel free to explain why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Dungeons, after a certain point are not rewarding, they're not challenging or engaging, they're very repetitive, tedious to solo and don't impact or change the world in any meaningful fashion.
    Agreed. And you know I've been vocal in the past about it. I've offered detailed explanations as to how I arrived at that conclusion with specific examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    But I'd like to focus on the word "rewarding" here, because that's usually what you focus on in addition to engaging. You find challenge and engagement rewarding and meaningful. Depending on the person and the objective, challenge and engagement are not required to have the reward be meaningful. When leveling, XP is the bottom line, with folks having different levels of engagement required for them to do it and honestly FATE's require you to be engaged...not necessarily in combat, but you need to be present and aware of where they are, how to get there, what the objective, etc... so you can get the xp you need.
    You can't honestly be saying that pressing M and auto flying to a glowing section on a map is engaging. I'm going to pretend that you didn't say that lol.

    When leveling XP is the bottom line agreed. XP is in that vacuum an incredibly valuable resource. The point that I was making is that FATEs don't do XP better than MSQ. They don't do lore better. They don't do rewards better. Once you get to a second job it switches up because you have no MSQ, so you compare FATEs against the other content types and they all outshine FATEs pretty staggeringly, which makes its already depressing rewards a little bit more depressing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Just because you fail to understand how or why people find FATEs to be enjoyable.....and no one really ever argued that FATEs are enjoyable.... doesn't mean FATEs are not content. Regardless of your feelings on it, it is something a player can participate in that provides rewards that the development team spent time designing and implementing. That is, by definition, content.
    Girls can go get root canals together, but I'm pretty positive to say they wouldn't call it a girls night out.

    #rootcanalFridays. Hit us up at Katchii's Dental Palace boyzzzz. You know where we be.

    @ everyone else, unfortunately I'm out of here for the day so I don't have time to respond to everyone, but I'll catch you up on Monday.

  15. #37475
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    FYI, both MSQ take less than an EX. I want to say under 10 minutes, easy.
    I actually have taken to not doing MSQ roulette simply because I'm one of the many who would only be there for the (bonus) tomes, and they are tomes I am in zero honest need of at this point. I have been dumping any and all poetics on umbrite for the past 2 weeks and almost have enough to finish the rest of the anima weapons. So with the MSQ roulette, I'd be in there on a tank job pretty much pulling the entire dungeon at once. It was fun to do that a dozen or so times, but after a while it reaches the point of "why do I do this", so nope. I actually agree with calls to make those two dungeons solo instances, thus allowing new players to experience them with cutscenes and all instead of being stuck in cut scene hell while the rest of the group plows through the entire dungeon.

  16. #37476
    Less than a month until I get the mini airship mount from PvP if I keep to my goal of at least two wins per day!

  17. #37477
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Keep in mind when I say something isn't content. I don't mean it isn't content in general. I mean it isn't to me. I stated why I believe that and cited examples. I'm not sitting here arguing the semantics of the definition of content or whether my opinion matches xyz. If you disagree with my examples by all means feel free to explain why.



    Agreed. And you know I've been vocal in the past about it. I've offered detailed explanations as to how I arrived at that conclusion with specific examples.



    You can't honestly be saying that pressing M and auto flying to a glowing section on a map is engaging. I'm going to pretend that you didn't say that lol.

    When leveling XP is the bottom line agreed. XP is in that vacuum an incredibly valuable resource. The point that I was making is that FATEs don't do XP better than MSQ. They don't do lore better. They don't do rewards better. Once you get to a second job it switches up because you have no MSQ, so you compare FATEs against the other content types and they all outshine FATEs pretty staggeringly, which makes its already depressing rewards a little bit more depressing.



    Girls can go get root canals together, but I'm pretty positive to say they wouldn't call it a girls night out.

    #rootcanalFridays. Hit us up at Katchii's Dental Palace boyzzzz. You know where we be.

    @ everyone else, unfortunately I'm out of here for the day so I don't have time to respond to everyone, but I'll catch you up on Monday.
    My point is that you can't afk and accomplish the goal, you have to pay attention and do something constantly or else you won't be there for the FATE and won't get credit, even if that something is incredibly simple.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    I actually have taken to not doing MSQ roulette simply because I'm one of the many who would only be there for the (bonus) tomes, and they are tomes I am in zero honest need of at this point. I have been dumping any and all poetics on umbrite for the past 2 weeks and almost have enough to finish the rest of the anima weapons. So with the MSQ roulette, I'd be in there on a tank job pretty much pulling the entire dungeon at once. It was fun to do that a dozen or so times, but after a while it reaches the point of "why do I do this", so nope. I actually agree with calls to make those two dungeons solo instances, thus allowing new players to experience them with cutscenes and all instead of being stuck in cut scene hell while the rest of the group plows through the entire dungeon.
    We had a new guy join the FC a while back and we did both Castrum Meridianum and Praetorium, unsynced, and didn't skip any cutscenes. Castrum took 37 minutes and Praetorium took 46 minutes. And this was UNSYNCED so the fights took maybe 10 minutes total for each of these places, that means 66%+ of our time spent in there was just cutscenes.

    I also read on Reddit about a similar group that went in at the appropriate item level for Praetorium, watching all cutscenes, and cleared the place with only 2 minutes to spare....on a 120 minute timer. That's ridiculous.

  18. #37478
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    My point is that you can't afk and accomplish the goal, you have to pay attention and do something constantly or else you won't be there for the FATE and won't get credit, even if that something is incredibly simple.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We had a new guy join the FC a while back and we did both Castrum Meridianum and Praetorium, unsynced, and didn't skip any cutscenes. Castrum took 37 minutes and Praetorium took 46 minutes. And this was UNSYNCED so the fights took maybe 10 minutes total for each of these places, that means 66%+ of our time spent in there was just cutscenes.

    I also read on Reddit about a similar group that went in at the appropriate item level for Praetorium, watching all cutscenes, and cleared the place with only 2 minutes to spare....on a 120 minute timer. That's ridiculous.
    No fault of the new players, though; that's the fault of really bad dungeon design that they (thankfully) learned their lesson from.

    But yeah...I can complete at least expert and 50-60 combined in the amount of time a single one of those unsynced runs you did with the new person.

    Kinda glad I did those dungeons during ARR, at least; even though it was end of the expansion and people already vastly overgeared them, it wasn't as much a joke as it became during HW and up to the present day.

  19. #37479
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    Its not pointless if you enjoy the ride if you don't like it don't do it. I don't understand why people do this to themselves it's not like getting to 70 on alt jobs is needed for anything.
    I'm not chaining myself to my chair, forcing myself to grind until I want to die, I'm just saying I would rather do the MSQ over again like in WoW rather than grinding potd if I want the quickest way to lvl an alt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    So don't? Do hunt bills, FATEs for challenge log, roulettes, beast tribe dailies to a point (even in Stormblood, you get a LOT of xp from Vanu/Gnaath until new ones are added). Queue for PvP, it's short and gives a lot of xp, even if you lose.

    Mix it up instead of grinding the same thing ad nauseum. They put a lot of options in there for a reason. Stop ignoring them... stop treating a game like a job where you have to maximum every moment of gameplay for efficiency. :/
    I'm just comparing the fastest way to lvl in both games. That being said I didn't think about doing the HW hunts or beast tribe quests to lvl, I will try those for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    If you're over 60, seriously, try some PvP. You might find it more different from match to match and it gives a lot of xp. I've seen some claim it's the better option over PotD. Realize I hate PvP and I've had a lot of fun with XIV's equivalent of battlegrounds.
    I have heard the PvP suggestion a lot, I just have 0 inclination to try PvP in this game, but I'm getting closer seeing as everyone I've talked to says it isn't bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Why?
    I have active jobs (WHM main and DRK second) both are leveled quickly (already 70).
    BLM is my backup DPS for group versatility that is leveled slowly now, mostly by doing side quests and the occasional dungeon.

    The rest is there to be played when I am in the mood to play with kitty but my active jobs are done for the day/week.
    Because the leveling in this game is excruciating TBH, but I'll try some of the things Faroth mentioned.
    Quote Originally Posted by True Anarch View Post
    Never claimed I was a genuis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Furitrix View Post
    I don't give a fuck if cops act shitty towards people, never have.

  20. #37480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Do something else, because one game isn't supposed to be your life?

    I always thought this logic of, "Things have to be endless grinds because otherwise you might actually do something else with your time and that's just not what MMOs are supposed to let you do!" has always confused me.
    MMOs are supposed to be persistent worlds in which you can spend (ideal szenario) unlimited time, just like in RL.
    It's supposed to be up to the player to decide how much time he is willing to spend and not to the game by presenting you with "nope nothing more to do until next week". People just have gotten spoiled by WoW, where you go in, process a 20 minute daily checklist and then log out until it is raid night.

    Yes, such a design will lead to some people spending their lives inside a video game. Extreme cases always exist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Post View Post
    Because the leveling in this game is excruciating TBH, but I'll try some of the things Faroth mentioned.
    Leveling sucks in any game because you spend days with a barely functional character just to fill the bar x times.
    That's why I always use the most effective method. With effective I mean "least time spent per level".
    It doesn't get much more effective than leveling off the bonus from daily random dungeon, esp if you blitz through with friends.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Post View Post
    I have heard the PvP suggestion a lot, I just have 0 inclination to try PvP in this game, but I'm getting closer seeing as everyone I've talked to says it isn't bad.
    To put it into perspective: daily Frontline feels like AV. People are busy humping crystals about as much as they are busy killing Balinda and Drek.

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