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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Anbokr View Post
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#dataset=90

    Affli is not getting nerfed with these hotfixes. If you're referring to the nerfs from months ago, arms also got nerfed then and those are irrelevant with respect to the current discussion -- we're talking about what "should" be nerfed now.

    I don't think any spec, ever, should receive a 9-10% nerf mid-tier. It's ridiculous. We can sit here and say sure, Arms will be "OK" or "deserved" a nerf mid-tier, then you also have to apply that logic to the specs performing as well as if not "better" than Arms. Of course that's all subjective, but the logs consistently show 5 specs overperforming compared to the lower clusters -- boomy, arms, affli, spriest, and sub. Arms got a large nerf today. Sub got a smaller nerf today. The other three made out like bandits today.

    We can keep this charade going I guess where you just quote me saying X doesn't need a nerf, and I quote you explaining how A, B, C, D, and E probably need nerfs, but the timing is poor. Legendary nerfs like this should have happened pre-TOS, PTR, before any aura tweaking went out. Very poor timing for mid-tier.

    tldr: The nerfs themselves might be "fine", but the timing and sequence of nerfs (aura nerfs early on AND THEN legendary nerfs) is extremely poor.
    Stupid comparison, the nerfs are 100% justified, they are 10000% justified.

    The only reason the 3-cleave specs are in there is because there are multiple cleave fights screwing with the data, use basic brain.

    Click each boss individually and they all have 2 things in common.

    Arms warrior ahead by ~10%, Sub rogue ahead by ~5%, aka as much as the nerfs give or take.

    And depending on the boss, Fury appears, now and then probably cause of longer execute phase, while most of the other classes are in a straight line with a few switching places depending on the boss.

    Newsflash, THE CLEAVE SPECS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER AT CLEAVE FIGHTS.

    But when it comes to ST, 1 class cant pull first at every single fight and being 5-10% ahead every -single- time.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=2032

    ST, Arms ahead by 10%, Sub/MM ahead.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=2050

    ST/2man cleave, Arms ahead by 10%, can be excused to the cleave either way, broken, sub again in the first four.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=2052

    ST, Arms and sub again in the first four, same shit as before, i can guess Fury is there cause of the scaling of the buff along with execute phase, borked stats.

    There is nothing poor about it, its causing problems in the raiding community, hence nerfed to silence the raiding community because lets face it, this time its justified, 99/100 times the nerfs are justified, just the tears hide the truth.
    Last edited by potis; 2017-07-22 at 08:45 AM.

  2. #22
    ST isn't everything in a raid tier as balance/affli/shadow show with their dominance. Sure, Arms is crushing several fights. Boomies are crushing several others. Spriests others. I can cherry pick boss damage only logs from DI, mistress -- with affli topping others by 20%, sub by 15%+, etc...

    That's what happens when you have a varied raid tier. Should several specs get 10-20% AoE nerfs in the middle of a raid tier because they are doing significantly more AoE damage than the vast majority of specs? Probably not. Should arms get a nerf in the middle of a raid tier because it's the top dog ST spec? I'd say no, pre and post-raid tier sure. I guess that opinion varies from person to person though.

    As does where you draw the lane, do you intervene mid raid tier on ST? Cleave? AoE? All 3?

    To me it's all in the timing. These leggo nerfs should have happened before ToS (or if they neglected, after). Where's the convergence nerf? Where was the Fury DoS nerf in the middle of NH? Where was the spriest EN nerf? There's no consistency.
    Last edited by Anbokr; 2017-07-22 at 09:11 AM.

  3. #23
    You are confusing things.

    Fury without DoS/CoF was a pile of shit, as Fury without CoF/Umbral is now, Fury is highly depended on trinkets and knowledge on when to burst and cheese the fights.

    It will require a major buff for 7.3 unless they introduce some new trinket that does the same shit, aka Fury is broken completely, maybe if they change the artifact weapon to proc its Rampage buffs more often or always it will not require broken ass trinkets used with BC to do competitive DPS.

    But thats the difference, its MY OPINION, of how Fury SHOULD be.

    You forget, Blizzard still tries to keep "RPG elements" in the game.

    Balance Dudu, is a cleave class, Affli is a cleave class, Shadow Priest is a cleave class, its 100% normal for those classes, in Blizzards eyes to pull those numbers in a constant AoE fight as Mistress Or Host, or Inqui Mythic.

    They said multiple times over years, THEIR BALANCE GOAL IS 5-10% DIFFERENCE IN ST, NOTHING ELSE.

    When arms is 5-10% ahead of the second class, which means the last classes are above 20% difference, its broken, nerf incoming, simple.
    Last edited by potis; 2017-07-22 at 09:42 AM.

  4. #24
    Deleted
    I get dmg tuning, but less Ayala's procs also means more boring rotation. Blargh.

  5. #25
    Thats every arms warrior benched then. Stupid thing to change mid tier but thats Blizzard for you.
    They simply don't give a fuck anymore.

    Guess there just is no point in ever playing anything but rogue anymore if you want to play melee.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Balance Dudu, is a cleave class, Affli is a cleave class, Shadow Priest is a cleave class, its 100% normal for those classes, in Blizzards eyes to pull those numbers in a constant AoE fight as Mistress Or Host, or Inqui Mythic.

    They said multiple times over years, THEIR BALANCE GOAL IS 5-10% DIFFERENCE IN ST, NOTHING ELSE.

    When arms is 5-10% ahead of the second class, which means the last classes are above 20% difference, its broken, nerf incoming, simple.
    Allright champ, so in YOUR OPPINION and blizzards OPPINION it's great that some classes (on average, 75th per centile for standarization) pull 45% ahead of the last classes like boomkin on Harjatan https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2036, 67% like affli+boomkin on Inquisiton https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2048 48% like affli and SP on Host https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2054 but under no fucking circumstances it's allowed for any class to be ahead (compared to worst performing class again only) by 23% like arms on Goroth https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2032 23% like arms on Sisters: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2050
    And it's tottaly cool that despite "Affli being a cleave class" it is 15% behind the overpowered arms on Goroth, compared to arms being for example 28% behind affli on demonic inquision or 27% on Mistress, not to mention the rest of encounters.
    And that's allowed in YOUR OPPINION because these classes are designed to cleave well? You've got to be kidding me. You're probably angry cause you play fury and it does not perform well, but what we're essentialy looking at now is that on ST fights arms is going to be either barely (within 5 margin) above others on ST fights or equal to other classes, while at the same time arms is going to be complete and utter shit on everything else. Add to this the fact that arms is not the best at burst now and it gradually builds it's dmg and dps over multiple uses of BS+BC and long excecute phases, which is going to be less significant with each passing week.

    And by the way, that retarded statement about blizzards goal being for all classes be within 5-10% margin on ST is complete bullshit, suffice to say Elemental shamans are designed soloely to be AoE classes throughout whole expansion with insignificant ST dps. If what you're saying was true destro locks would've had basically only ST rotation like throughtout old expansions and no multi chaos bolt casts as they do now. They try to make every class/spec at least viable in all circumstances while staying within their stupid class fantasy bullshit and they fail horribly.

    Oh and this:
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Balance Dudu, is a cleave class, Affli is a cleave class, Shadow Priest is a cleave class, its 100% normal for those classes, in Blizzards eyes to pull those numbers in a constant AoE fight as Mistress Or Host, or Inqui Mythic.
    Arms warrior is a ST spec, Rogues are ST class, it's 100% normal for those classes to pull those numbers in a constant single target fights like Goroth or Maiden.

  7. #27
    Deleted
    If you think Arms warior is single target one trick pony only than n/c. Becasue it has everything cleave and burst aoe on top of best single.
    Last edited by mmocb16d6382de; 2017-07-22 at 12:02 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    You are confusing things.

    Fury without DoS/CoF was a pile of shit, as Fury without CoF/Umbral is now, Fury is highly depended on trinkets and knowledge on when to burst and cheese the fights.

    It will require a major buff for 7.3 unless they introduce some new trinket that does the same shit, aka Fury is broken completely, maybe if they change the artifact weapon to proc its Rampage buffs more often or always it will not require broken ass trinkets used with BC to do competitive DPS.

    But thats the difference, its MY OPINION, of how Fury SHOULD be.

    You forget, Blizzard still tries to keep "RPG elements" in the game.

    Balance Dudu, is a cleave class, Affli is a cleave class, Shadow Priest is a cleave class, its 100% normal for those classes, in Blizzards eyes to pull those numbers in a constant AoE fight as Mistress Or Host, or Inqui Mythic.

    They said multiple times over years, THEIR BALANCE GOAL IS 5-10% DIFFERENCE IN ST, NOTHING ELSE.

    When arms is 5-10% ahead of the second class, which means the last classes are above 20% difference, its broken, nerf incoming, simple.
    Damage is all arms had though. Without an immunity, your class is next to pointless in ToS. Arms had more damage than average and got a few spots but thoes are gone now.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by zelis View Post
    If you think Arms warior is single target one trick pony only than n/c. Becasue it has everything cleave and burst aoe on top of best single.
    It was throughtout most of expansions, ST with big burst of dps is it's "class fantasy". As I said, blizz is trying to make all specs at least viable in all circumstances. Seen the logs? Any AoE fights in which arms stands out or actually is not mid-tier sitting at about 70% of top class dps? No, so stfu. Once per minute AoE burst on some random trash packs in dungeons is no argument at all.

  10. #30
    Deleted
    They really dident need to nerf the ring. What has it now? like 1.2 ppm?

  11. #31
    what nerfs are you talking about?

  12. #32
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime92 View Post
    It was throughtout most of expansions, ST with big burst of dps is it's "class fantasy". As I said, blizz is trying to make all specs at least viable in all circumstances. Seen the logs? Any AoE fights in which arms stands out or actually is not mid-tier sitting at about 70% of top class dps? No, so stfu. Once per minute AoE burst on some random trash packs in dungeons is no argument at all.
    Burst aoe is all that it matters in this game so you can shut the fuck up yourself.

    Constant aoe is rarely used both for raids and mythic+

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime92 View Post
    snip
    1)Stop assuming things.

    2)I am Prot before anything else, i will play either spec if i have to, Arms is trash boring in Legion, Fury has the same stat priority as Prot, easier life,for my casual raiding.

    3)Acting butthurt because truth hurts gets you nowhere, Blizzard has repeated itself for the last 7 years where "class balance in PvE" is an issue.

    It doesnt matter what you think is bullshit, their statements matter, check the internet to find it, i am not gonna do it for you.

    Their goal is maximum of 10% difference overall in the active raid at SINGLE TARGET COMBAT, aka IF THE SIMULATION, AKA SIMULATION CRAFT IN THIS CASE, SHOWS A 10% DIFFERENCE IN SINGLE TARGET COMBAT, THEIR BALANCE IS ALRIGHT, they dont care about anything else.

    They dont care if your trash GM/Raid leader will sit you, they dont care what the community will do.

    The math shows that the balance they are trying to achieve is there, they are covered, they dont give a fuck after that.

    Goroth is the perfect simulation example where they can see that Arms and Sub in ST are broken compared to the last 4-5 classes on the list, there difference exceeds 10%, the nerfs are exactly that.

    Bring the two top classes in the 10%, not in the 20%, thats all they are doing and have been doing for 7-9 years where the tears are flowing.

    If you cant understand that class balance is based around Single target in the maximum difference of 10%, i cant help you further.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Damage is all arms had though. Without an immunity, your class is next to pointless in ToS. Arms had more damage than average and got a few spots but thoes are gone now.
    No, they arent, as i said, Blizzard does not care what the delusional "Raid Leader" of some top 1000 guild will do because he thinks something.

    He is wrong, they are right, Simulation Craft is right, Math is right, you cant argue with Math, therefor they are right.
    Last edited by potis; 2017-07-22 at 01:33 PM.

  14. #34
    What they think and what they actually do is vastly different though. Arcane Mage retardness in HFC alone disproves anyone and everyone who think Blizz somehow make changes based around class balance.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafalga View Post
    What they think and what they actually do is vastly different though. Arcane Mage retardness in HFC alone disproves anyone and everyone who think Blizz somehow make changes based around class balance.
    The problem appears mostly when the community outcries "Balance" in the middle of a tier cause something is not right.

    Arcane Mage at HFC is mostly irrelevant cause it was the last patch, they are not gonna balance a dead period, plus Fire was as broken, according to logs either way, Mage OP

    Right now as others have mentioned for the last 2 weeks there are many leaders, pug or guild leaders pretty much saying "I READ THAT ARMS IS OP, YOU NOT INVITED IF NOT ARMS" which causes an outcry, which in return causes Blizzard to investigate, which you get this result.

    Same with sub rogues, they are crying that Shoulders is too strong and some of them dont have them, others cant remove them cause too OP, shoulders nerfed cause of that.

    If the community keeps silent, things wont get affected, but the community cries too hard, or it starts to affect the gameplay, thats when the nerf hammer drops.

    In other words, these Arm nerfs are 100% based on the retarded leaders telling Warriors to "Go Arms or fuck off cause warcraft logs and forums say its OP" without know why its OP or how.

    Which in return you can see at Warcraft logs that they are correct since in some cases there is an above 10% difference with half the classes and a 20% difference with classes like Elemental/Shadow/Frost DK in ST.
    Last edited by potis; 2017-07-22 at 01:55 PM.

  16. #36
    Thats the problem though. When they do shit like this, they look like as uninformed and retarded as the raid leaders and forum poster you talk about. Nerfing shit to the point of irrelevancy while leaving other obviously broken shit around. (Looking at you boomkins and locks) Make it a fair game and noone will complain.(well some ppl always will, that the nature of the game)


    edit: I need to add, my beef with the nerfs is all about Ayala's actual positive effects over the rotation rather then it's dps increase. It smooths out the rotation so well and helps you when you run in a bad "no tactician" spree. They could have played around EP (which is the real offender which makes Ayala's the powerhouse it is pre-nerf) and still keep the rings PPM intact. But no, they simply killed it. This is something warrior community as a whole is used to. We understood long ago that noone at blizzard plays the class or even listen to those who do.
    Last edited by Rafalga; 2017-07-22 at 02:06 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafalga View Post
    Thats the problem though. When they do shit like this, they look like as uninformed and retarded as the raid leaders and forum poster you talk about. Nerfing shit to the point of irrelevancy while leaving other obviously broken shit around. (Looking at you boomkins and locks) Make it a fair game and noone will complain.(well some ppl always will, that the nature of the game)
    Which is what they did, as i repeatedly said, the balance is around Single Target on the 10% Margin, they reduce Arm Warriors to around 10% ahead of bottom classes instead of 20%, which means now they will be 5% ahead of the middle classes.

    None of these changes make Arms irrelevant, its just crying for the sake of crying right now.

    Pretty sure the simcraft dudes can come and tell you the same.

    Cleave fights are irrelevant, once more, some classes simply do more passively compared to others, they cant do much about it, if they touch their cleave, they fuck up their ST, which is their goal to not touch the ST.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    1)Stop assuming things.

    2)I am Prot before anything else, i will play either spec if i have to, Arms is trash boring in Legion, Fury has the same stat priority as Prot, easier life,for my casual raiding.

    3)Acting butthurt because truth hurts gets you nowhere, Blizzard has repeated itself for the last 7 years where "class balance in PvE" is an issue.

    It doesnt matter what you think is bullshit, their statements matter, check the internet to find it, i am not gonna do it for you.

    Their goal is maximum of 10% difference overall in the active raid at SINGLE TARGET COMBAT, aka IF THE SIMULATION, AKA SIMULATION CRAFT IN THIS CASE, SHOWS A 10% DIFFERENCE IN SINGLE TARGET COMBAT, THEIR BALANCE IS ALRIGHT, they dont care about anything else.

    They dont care if your trash GM/Raid leader will sit you, they dont care what the community will do.

    The math shows that the balance they are trying to achieve is there, they are covered, they dont give a fuck after that.

    Goroth is the perfect simulation example where they can see that Arms and Sub in ST are broken compared to the last 4-5 classes on the list, there difference exceeds 10%, the nerfs are exactly that.

    Bring the two top classes in the 10%, not in the 20%, thats all they are doing and have been doing for 7-9 years where the tears are flowing.

    If you cant understand that class balance is based around Single target in the maximum difference of 10%, i cant help you further.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, they arent, as i said, Blizzard does not care what the delusional "Raid Leader" of some top 1000 guild will do because he thinks something.

    He is wrong, they are right, Simulation Craft is right, Math is right, you cant argue with Math, therefor they are right.
    What are you even talking about?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafalga View Post
    Nerfing shit to the point of irrelevancy while leaving other obviously broken shit around. (Looking at you boomkins and locks)
    You mean the point that arms warriors are literally topping nearly all bosses.

    except for the niche few where boomkins wins

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Anbokr View Post
    ST isn't everything in a raid tier as balance/affli/shadow show with their dominance. Sure, Arms is crushing several fights. Boomies are crushing several others. Spriests others. I can cherry pick boss damage only logs from DI, mistress -- with affli topping others by 20%, sub by 15%+, etc...

    That's what happens when you have a varied raid tier. Should several specs get 10-20% AoE nerfs in the middle of a raid tier because they are doing significantly more AoE damage than the vast majority of specs? Probably not. Should arms get a nerf in the middle of a raid tier because it's the top dog ST spec? I'd say no, pre and post-raid tier sure. I guess that opinion varies from person to person though.

    As does where you draw the lane, do you intervene mid raid tier on ST? Cleave? AoE? All 3?

    To me it's all in the timing. These leggo nerfs should have happened before ToS (or if they neglected, after). Where's the convergence nerf? Where was the Fury DoS nerf in the middle of NH? Where was the spriest EN nerf? There's no consistency.
    Single target is still the most important thing in a raid generally, if you're middle of the pack single target with some decent utility and amazing cleave damage then you're certainly viable but if you're stuck at the bottom with single target like elemental shamans for example then all the aoe/cleave in the world won't help you be picked for mythic raids because if you look at the fights in there after the first 3 joke fights you got 5(perhaps 6, haven't looked too much into mythic KJ yet) primarily single target fights in a row as while there are adds they are generally not as high prio as boss damage.

    Also we do have other content in the game like mythic+ where arms warriors are amazing as well due to their burst aoe and really strong single target damage.

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